Trump v Biden 2020,The insurrection (pt 6) Read OP

Quin_Dub

The reality is that the crowd that assaulted the Capitol building were a mix of all flavours

There were absolutely categorically a core that went there to carry-out a pre-planned attack with the aim of "arresting" (or much much worse) multiple members of Congress and perhaps the VP. There were also generic thugs , who were just along for the fight.

There were also a large cohort of "Maga-Heads" that that got caught up in the drama of the moment and gave in to the herd mentality or indeed the coercion of the core instigators and got themselves into serious trouble.

The percentage distribution between these various categories does not for a moment impact the severity of the attack nor does it dilute the serious implications for the United States as a nation.

It also does not do anything to quell the very significant questions people have to ask about the support and/or acquiescence of the GOP in creating this situation.

ohnonotgmail

partyguinness wrote: »

You have already proven yourself completely incapable of dealing with specifics so off with you.



What next? Your father is better than my father..

its a bit early to be drinking.

Leroy42

Party, there was only what 11 terrorists involved in the flights for 9/11. So not really that much.

There was only 1 person who shot Lincoln.

I am wondering what are the levels you think need to be met to count as insurrection?

WE don't know how deep this goes. It is clear that there was some coordination. One of the leaders is claiming they were there because of calls from Trump. Clearly, Trump called for protest, clearly Trump tired to illegally amend the Georgia vote, clearly Trump did nothing to stop the insurrection once it had started.

Can you imagine if Trump had stood on the steps and told the crowd to stop and respect the democratic process? But he choose not to. He clearly had the power to influence, but choose not to use it. That, in my book, is the same as being involved.

Edit, the mere fact that they carried the Confederate flag into the house of the republic is an act of inssurrection in of itself.

listermint

Leroy42 wrote: »

Party, there was only what 11 terrorists involved in the flights for 9/11. So not really that much.

There was only 1 person who shot Lincoln.

I am wondering what are the levels you think need to be met to count as insurrection?

WE don't know how deep this goes. It is clear that there was some coordination. One of the leaders is claiming they were there because of calls from Trump. Clearly, Trump called for protest, clearly Trump tired to illegally amend the Georgia vote, clearly Trump did nothing to stop the insurrection once it had started.

Can you imagine if Trump had stood on the steps and told the crowd to stop and respect the democratic process? But he choose not to. He clearly had the power to influence, but choose not to use it. That, in my book, is the same as being involved.

I'd imagine he would have been looking for the gallows outside to have been used as evidence of the insurrection.

At which point he'd be on here telling everyone I told you so. You rile people up and this is what happens all the evidence was there


Etc etc etc ..

briany

The story coming from sources inside the WH is that Trump was initially pleased that demonstrators had breached the Capitol building, but was subsequently dismayed.... at the 'low-class' appearance of many of those in the mob.

rgossip30

Leroy42 wrote: »

Party, there was only what 11 terrorists involved in the flights for 9/11. So not really that much.

There was only 1 person who shot Lincoln.

I am wondering what are the levels you think need to be met to count as insurrection?

WE don't know how deep this goes. It is clear that there was some coordination. One of the leaders is claiming they were there because of calls from Trump. Clearly, Trump called for protest, clearly Trump tired to illegally amend the Georgia vote, clearly Trump did nothing to stop the insurrection once it had started.

Can you imagine if Trump had stood on the steps and told the crowd to stop and respect the democratic process? But he choose not to. He clearly had the power to influence, but choose not to use it. That, in my book, is the same as being involved.

Edit, the mere fact that they carried the Confederate flag into the house of the republic is an act of inssurrection in of itself.

Do you have actual evidence that Trump did nothing to stop the insurrection .

Gregor Samsa

The facts are clear.

You have a sitting President that was claiming that the election was going to be fraudulent (if he lost) for months before polling day. Constant lies and accusations that the system was corruptly acting against him. He even openly tried to get the US Postal Service to deliberately get postal votes - in the middle of a pandemic when they are needed the most - delayed so they would not be counted.

Then the election happens, and he continues to claim fraud. Totally baseless claims that votes for him were hidden and destroyed. Constant claims of ballot stuffing for Biden.

Even after States started certifying their results, he tried to stop them from doing so. Constant claims that the vote was "stolen", that Biden is "illegitimate".

This has been going on for months, online and off. Every chance he's got, he's constantly and consistently pushed the notion that the whole vote, and the election, is illegal and corrupt.

None of this is an exaggeration. He actually said and did these things and it's 100% verifiable. These are all facts.

Now, lets just stop there for a minute, and consider some context.

A sitting President has spent months constantly claiming that there is an un-democratic coup happening against him. His whole administration have been claiming it.

If you know anything about America, have ever been to America, know any Americans, you'll know one thing for sure. They take their Democracy seriously. It's sacred to them. There's many over there who believe that the USA is the only democracy in the world. They believe that democracy is the one thing that stands between them and a world of tyranny. Even the ones that know better than that, they are of course proud of their democracy - and lets face it, democracy is of vital importance. It is sacred. But in the US, it's totally tied up in their very identity as Americans. With the flag - which is everywhere over there. With the Pledge of Allegiance, which is sacred. With their Military, who they justify based on the fight for, and defense of, freedom and democracy. With Congress. With the office - and person - of the President himself. To them, democracy is American. America was born out of armed and violent revolution against an un-democratic regime, and it is something that they cannot and will not lose, at any cost.

So these are serious accusations Trump and his supports have made against the very fabric of being an American, and of America itself. They've claimed - not that America is going to fall to tyranny - but that America has already fallen to it. Their claims that the election was stolen and illegitimate are claims that America is already under the power of a tyranny. These aren't metaphors or exaggerations from Trump. It's not political rhetoric. They're actual, literal accusations - he and his team have repeatedly made that very clear.

So when Trump stands in front of an assembled crowd of people that has been consuming this message for months, and repeats the message, with these very words:

"We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal."

“You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to talk about it."

“We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

"And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you. … We are going to the Capitol, and we are going to try and give — the Democrats are hopeless, they are never voting for anything, not even one vote, but we are going to try — give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re try — going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.”

What does that mean? Think about it. If you genuinely believed that an actual tyrannical regime had taken over the USA, would a protest waving flags be a proper response? Would "encouraging" a few Congressmen to defeat a vote that it was clear they did not have the numbers to do be what you would expect to "take the country back"?

If you you genuinely believed that an actual tyrannical regime had taken over the USA, and your backs were against the wall, and you're being told by none other than the President himself - live and in person - that you are the only Patriots left, that the country has already fallen to the enemy, and that only you can save it and that this is it: you can't take it any more. How can this bee seen as anything other than the call to direct action that it clearly is?

Yes, he did say to them to march 'peacefully and patriotically' to the Capitol. So what?

Does this line undo everything else he said to them for months? Is is line enough to hold back the rage he created and fomented. Would any person expect to protest 'peacefully and patriotically' against an actual tyranny that had taken over a country? Seriously, what the fúck is "peacefully and patriotically" supposed to do for you when you believe your country has been taken over by the enemy?

No. No way. No how.

The irony is that the 'peacefully and patriotically' line is the one bit of political rhetoric in Trumps's whole speech. The one bit that's an exaggeration, the one bit that is not meant to be taken literally.

And yet, to his apologists after the terrible scenes we saw, of an actual attack on democracy performed in his name, they claim that - even in the face of all the indisputable evidence, all the terribly serious accusations, manipulation and lies - that these feeble words are somehow his true message. That nothing else matters, but that he mentioned the word "peacefully" in passing. That this flimsy, throwaway line in an absolute sea of instigation is somehow his get out of jail free card that gets him off the hook.

As was said at a time of crisis in Irish politics, it's gross, unbelievable, bizarre and unprecedented. And yet there are people - otherwise intelligent, normal people - who are willing to bend reality enough to believe it.

partyguinness

listermint wrote: »

But you've provided zero evidence and thus reasoning for your assertion.

Other than America has a big military and greatest democracy on earth yeehaww Sthick therefore it couldn't happen....


Terrible effort.

Zero evidence? Let's tease it out and look at what happened. After they stormed the Capitol what happened next? I know there was damage etc of course the woman shot but as far a power grab was concerned- Nothing. The mob posed for seflies.

That's right the mob dispersed and went home and probably watched it all on the 9pm news.

Was there a coup? No
Was there a putsch? No
Was there an insurrection? No
Did civil unrest break out across the US in a coordinated attempt to seize power (which generally tends to happen)? No
Was the US temporarily incapacitated? No
Was the military involved? No

Not only that but the Houses of Congress reconvened a few hours later and certified the results. Normal business resumed.


Is that your coup attempt?

Some like to elevate it into some sort of dramatic coup. I like to call it for what I saw- a bunch of fringe lunatics set out to cause trouble- some planned for it and hoped for trouble and some just got carried away on day. A great day out for the lads.

briany

rgossip30 wrote: »

Do you have actual evidence that Trump did nothing to stop the insurrection .

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/533403-sasse-says-trump-was-delighted-and-excited-by-reports-of-capitol-riot

Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.) said Friday that he heard from senior White House officials that President Trump was "delighted" to hear that his supporters were breaking into the Capitol building in a riot Wednesday that turned deadly.

“As this was unfolding on television, Donald Trump was walking around the White House confused about why other people on his team weren’t as excited as he was as you had rioters pushing against Capitol Police trying to get into the building,” Sasse told conservative talk show host Hugh Hewitt in an interview. “That was happening. He was delighted.”

ohnonotgmail

rgossip30 wrote: »

Do you have actual evidence that Trump did nothing to stop the insurrection .

what did he do? he riled up the crowd. didn't release the national guard to help stop it. told the people involved that he loved them.

rgossip30

rgossip30 wrote: »

Do you have actual evidence that Trump did nothing to stop the insurrection .

The vice president was the one who called in the National Guard. Due to the president's inaction. Compare that to him around blm..

robinph

partyguinness wrote: »

And? That is all public knowledge and not in dispute.

What I am pointing out that all this hot air and pearl clutching about a 'coup/putsch/insurrection' is completely overblowing the situation. It was a pretty poor attempt.

You want to call that a coup/putsch/insurrection, fine. Let's be generous and call it the worst coup/insurrection attempt in recent memory.

Nobody is claiming that the thousands of people who were there on the day are all part of the the plan, or at least they were not aware that they were part of the plan.

Just needs a small number of people mingling in among the crowd of Trump supporters who actually knew what they were doing, find a guy with his face painted and wearing a horned helmet to go and stand over there and get his photo taken, meanwhile the people who actually have a plan go the other direction around the few other idiots who were looting podiums and see if they can find Pence, Pelosi etc.

It was very, very close to being a totally different outcome.

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The vice president was the one who called in the National Guard. Due to the president's inaction. Compare that to him around blm..

And I belive that call isn't technically allowed to be made by Pence as would have to come from Trump officially... But if the call goes through and Pence is on the other end saying that he's in the building send them now then I guess you accept that they need sending now regardless of if it was Trump who should have made the call.

partyguinness

Ironically, I seem to hold the mob in far lower esteem that others here but yet I seem to be castiagted for taking a different angle in this echo chamber but I'm a big boy.

We can all agree that it was a disgrace and it should never have come to that and the blame lies firmly at the foot of Trump and his enablers.

yagan

partyguinness wrote: »

Ironically, I seem to hold the mob in far lower esteem that others here but yet I seem to be castiagted for taking a different angle in this echo chamber but I'm a big boy.

We can all agree that it was a disgrace and it should never have come to that and the blame lies firmly at the foot of Trump and his enablers.

It sounds like you're in concordance with an echo chamber you say castigates you so why the personal umbridge?

valoren

The worrying aspect is that these balm pots (many wearing back packs) got so close to the elected officials. We recall the Boston marathon bombing with 2 pressure cooker bombs in back packs which killed 3 and injured 264 people. Just look at the scenes where Babbitt was shot. To drop a back pack bomb next to the hallway door in those circumstances could easily have gone undetected. The deflections about “storming” the Capitol implies they didn't storm because they got in so easily. The issue is that it was literally impossible to security check everyone in the chaos created by an incited and baying mob. All it would have taken was for one nut case getting inside while Capitol police became overwhelmed and then leave their back pack inside to explode. That’s why Trump is impeached. For inciting and engineering a chaotic situation where the threat of such an attack was even remotely possible.

MeMen2_MoRi_

They were just there cosplaying guys they promise..

https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/1349968048636256258?s=19

Overheal

partyguinness wrote: »

I am down playing it because in my eye they are fringe lunatics- nothing more and nothing less. They will be dealt with through the Court system- severely I hope.

They were nothing more than mob of dangerous misfits and losers. All this hot air and melodrama about a 'coup' and a 'putsch' and 'insurrection' is just that IMO.

Personally I have no interest in giving these mob lunatics more credibility than they deserve- they deserve and warrant no credibilty. They need to be kept under a rock and watched.

Let's be clear- their actions must be taken very seriously and dealt with as harshly as possible but let's not get carried away by legitimising them.

Literally dozens of them were already on the FBI terror watchlist before they arrived at the Capitol...

Overheal

Leroy42 wrote: »

Party, there was only what 11 terrorists involved in the flights for 9/11. So not really that much.

There was only 1 person who shot Lincoln.

I am wondering what are the levels you think need to be met to count as insurrection?

WE don't know how deep this goes. It is clear that there was some coordination. One of the leaders is claiming they were there because of calls from Trump. Clearly, Trump called for protest, clearly Trump tired to illegally amend the Georgia vote, clearly Trump did nothing to stop the insurrection once it had started.

Can you imagine if Trump had stood on the steps and told the crowd to stop and respect the democratic process? But he choose not to. He clearly had the power to influence, but choose not to use it. That, in my book, is the same as being involved.

Edit, the mere fact that they carried the Confederate flag into the house of the republic is an act of inssurrection in of itself.

19. 15 were Saudi nationals wouldn’t you know.

the immortals

America was so lucky that the officer who shot that woman was there to stop the insurrection single handedly with one bullet, they should just have him on duty for the inauguration instead of 15,000 national guardsmen,

Overheal

rgossip30 wrote: »

Do you have actual evidence that Trump did nothing to stop the insurrection .

We have growing evidence that he didn’t stop it and already had ample evidence that he actively encouraged it. It was Pence, not he, who ultimately cut the bureaucratic tape and deployed the national guard. Trump could not be effectively reached as he was too busy watching with some level of excitement at what his supporters were doing for them.

Go rewatch the morning rally in the shoes of a MAGA who is prone to violence.

JJayoo

Why is this being referred to as a Coup?

From wiki "the removal of an existing government from power, usually through violent means. Typically, it is an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a political faction, the military, or a dictator"

How exactly were these dipsh1ts going to seize power?

the immortals

the immortals wrote: »

America was so lucky that the officer who shot that woman was there to stop the insurrection single handedly with one bullet, they should just have him on duty for the inauguration instead of 15,000 national guardsmen,

That guy is a national hero, global hero even I would say. Could you imagine the strife and how imboldened Trump would be if it was a success

partyguinness

Overheal wrote: »

Literally dozens of them were already on the FBI terror watchlist before they arrived at the Capitol...

Yeah ok. They still makes them fringe lunatics. In fact that reinforces it.

the immortals

Cruz Stocky Steak wrote: »

That guy is a national hero, global hero even I would say. Could you imagine the strife and how imboldened Trump would be if it was a success

If what was a success?

Kumejima

partyguinness wrote: »

So lad, here we have a bunch of clowns in cosplay for the day with a half arsed attempt at a 'coup' and a 'putsch' and 'insurrection' depening on your take. Right.

Now this is the capital of the US. The US has the world's most advanced military at its disposal. Heavily armed police and National Guard a phone call away. Just step back and think about that for a few moments.

Lesson 101- If you are really setting out to start a coup or insurrection, at the very least make sure the military is on your side.

Answer me this: what stopped the mob? Why did it not turn into a blood bath?

So they gained entry in the Capitol...then what? Nothing.

They had nothing. They stormed the building and that was it. They had had the craic posed for pictures and smiles all round. Hilariously, they just dispered and went home before the curfew kicked in. That was some coup attempt alright lads..

A bunch of clowns in cosplay.

No, dude, don't you realise that all you need to topple the world's largest superpower is a couple of dozen hotheads to storm the Capitol building? If they had just been able to get to the secret Brain Chamber and destroy the USA's Brain, the country would have been theirs? I honestly don't see why you're not getting how close the USA came to falling to fascism?

rgossip30

Kumejima wrote: »

No, dude, don't you realise that all you need to topple the world's largest superpower is a couple of dozen hotheads to storm the Capitol building? If they had just been able to get to the secret Brain Chamber and destroy the USA's Brain, the country would have been theirs? I honestly don't see why you're not getting how close the USA came to falling to fascism?

Well its the blacks are not racist and fascists are only right wing syndrome .

Overheal

JJayoo wrote: »

Why is this being referred to as a Coup?

From wiki "the removal of an existing government from power, usually through violent means. Typically, it is an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a political faction, the military, or a dictator"

How exactly were these dipsh1ts going to seize power?

By killing enough democrats (and hanging Mike pence) that Republicans held a supermajority of the Congress’ remains, thereby throwing out the election results of the 7 swing states and having a vote in the House for the next President - Trump, and Someone else, perhaps Mike Flynn as the Vice President again in the Senate. This process is in the 12th amendment, when no candidate has enough electoral votes to win.

It’s being referred to as a coup because that’s what it was. They wanted to kill and overthrow the Vice President and kill and overthrow the democratic majority in the Congress.

everlast75

partyguinness wrote: »

Zero evidence? Let's tease it out and look at what happened. After they stormed the Capitol what happened next? I know there was damage etc of course the woman shot but as far a power grab was concerned- Nothing. The mob posed for seflies.

That's right the mob dispersed and went home and probably watched it all on the 9pm news.

Was there a coup? No
Was there a putsch? No
Was there an insurrection? No
Did civil unrest break out across the US in a coordinated attempt to seize power (which generally tends to happen)? No
Was the US temporarily incapacitated? No
Was the military involved? No

Not only that but the Houses of Congress reconvened a few hours later and certified the results. Normal business resumed.


Is that your coup attempt?

Some like to elevate it into some sort of dramatic coup. I like to call it for what I saw- a bunch of fringe lunatics set out to cause trouble- some planned for it and hoped for trouble and some just got carried away on day. A great day out for the lads.

Prosecutors believe US rioters sought to 'capture and assassinate' lawmakers at Capitol https://jrnl.ie/5325856

briany

Cruz Stocky Steak wrote: »

That guy is a national hero, global hero even I would say. Could you imagine the strife and how imboldened Trump would be if it was a success

It's worth noting that Trump was unreachable in the first couple of hours of the mayhem at the Capitol building. Aides and officials in the WH were screaming at him to do something, but he was in the little dining room next to the Oval office watching the chaos unfold on live TV, and allegedly pleased by the fact that protestors had gotten in. it wasn't until a couple of hours later, at 3.25 PM local time that Trump made his first appeal to the protestors. There is no excuse - none - for the sitting president not to condemn the break-in the moment it happens, and the cynic in me says he waited until he could be certain that the attempt to get at Congresspeople was going to be unsuccessful before he condemned the actions of a section of his support at CH on that day.