Trump v Biden 2020,The insurrection (pt 6) Read OP

magma69

BattleCorp wrote: »

Trump got 46.8% of the vote. That's not far short of half of America voting for him. Are they all nuts?

We're talking about Irish people, in Ireland. I.e. the ones on here.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

We were discussing the definition of a coup. Why on earth would I be trying to waste space? It's like the twilight zone in here.

Trump drummed up a crowd of people who were taken in by his lies and rhetoric. Amongst them were some dangerous groups such as QAnon and Proud Boys. Both of whom, Trump has encouraged. Some people in those groups, who were there, were actually trying to engineer a coup by attacking, threatening, probably capturing, and possibly murdering, elected federal politicians in order to push Trump's agenda to retain power.

Definition of a coup:
"A sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."

JJayoo

Overheal wrote: »

By killing enough democrats (and hanging Mike pence) that Republicans held a supermajority of the Congress’ remains, thereby throwing out the election results of the 7 swing states and having a vote in the House for the next President - Trump, and Someone else, perhaps Mike Flynn as the Vice President again in the Senate. This process is in the 12th amendment, when no candidate has enough electoral votes to win.

It’s being referred to as a coup because that’s what it was. They wanted to kill and overthrow the Vice President and kill and overthrow the democratic majority in the Congress.

Are you having a mental breakdown? This really is tinfoil hat nonsense

Gregor Samsa

JJayoo wrote: »

Why is this being referred to as a Coup?

From wiki "the removal of an existing government from power, usually through violent means. Typically, it is an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a political faction, the military, or a dictator"

How exactly were these dipsh1ts going to seize power?

Trump consistently claimed that Biden's election was illegitimate and fraudulent - even in the face of all his legal challenges failing, and without a shred of actual evidence - and that he was the legal, righteous and proper President of the United States. He did it on Twitter, he did it in speeches and interviews, and he did it in person to the crowd before they stormed the Capitol.

Lets even leave aside the documented calls by some of them when they were inside the building, trashing it, beating police, to hang the Vice President and assassinate members of Congress.

It doesn't matter that this rag-tag of idiots engaged in something that had no logical possibility of working. That they were dressed in "cosplay" costumes is inconsequential. It doesn't matter that there wasn't coordinated attempts across other government facilities, or that they didn't have a military structure.

What makes it an attempted coup is that they did their illegal actions in a direct attempt to keep an illegitimate President in power. One man - Trump - claimed to be the legitimate President for the upcoming term, despite the fact that he had lost the election. This is the attempted coup, this is the attempt at an "illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a political faction". The actions by the mob in Congress were - at the very least - to prevent the legal certification of Biden's democratic victory. To prevent the legitimate President-elect from being certified. To illegally keep the incumbent President in power.

No matter how stupid, how childish, how moronic, how destined to fail - the combined actions of a President stating publicly and repeatedly that he is not going to relinquish power, and a mob at his direct instigation physically attacking the institution and people that were in the middle of certifying his legitimate removal from power, is an attempted coup by any reasonable definition.

Then, add back in the stated aim of some of the mob to lynch Pence. To walk the halls having smashed in doors and windows, calling out loud for the assassination of members of Congress. To actually have killed and injured police defending members of the Government and the building itself. It becomes even clearer.

If a group of idiots in play soldier and yak consumes forcibly break into a bank, kill a guard, smash the place up, wave weapons around, threaten to kill fleeing employees, and shout demanding money, would that not be an attempted bank robbery? Even if they didn't get any money. Even if they couldn't get any money. Stupidity isn't a legal defence.

When a group of idiots in play soldier and yak consumes forcibly break into a the seat of Government, kill a guard, smash the place up, wave weapons around, threaten to kill fleeing politicians, and shout demanding that someone who lost an election be kept on as President - even if it had no chance of actually achieving their stated aims - how can it not be an attempted coup?

Overheal

VinLieger wrote: »

The Tours the week before, the individual with the megaphone directing people with a very specific purpose, panic buttons removed from the walls of democrats offices, GOP congress members live updating the terrorists on Pelosi's location, individuals with zip ties very obviously looking for people and other individuals wandering up and down corridors shouting for Pence, Pelosi et al to come out is only some of the mountains evidence that all indicate your completely wrong

The tours were they DAY before.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

We were discussing the definition of a coup. Why on earth would I be trying to waste space? It's like the twilight zone in here.

More of an insurrection, I believe - it all depends on whether you think the demonstartors wanted instill Trump as their leader or just stop Biden.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Definition of a coup:
"A sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."

Thank you. And this wasn't that.

Gregor Samsa

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

it all depends on whether you think the demonstartors wanted instill Trump as their leader or just stop Biden.

Trump, and his supporters, repeatedly claimed that Trump actually won and Biden actually lost. It wasn't that they were claiming that Biden's win wasn't in itself legitimate - it's that they were also claiming that Trump's legitimately won.

The outcome they were looking for wasn't a re-election, or just that Biden not be certified as the winner; it was certification that Trump should remain President.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

There's no difference between the two.

Trump, and his supporters, repeatedly claimed that Trump actually won and Biden actually lost. It wasn't that they were claiming that Biden't win wasn't in itself legitimate - it's that they were also claiming that Trump's legitimately won.

The outcome they were looking for wasn't a re-election, or just that Biden not be certified as the winner; it was certification that Trump should remain President.

This is my point: in insurrection is an uprising against a power - when you don't care who gets in or who takes over, you just want to the current leader (or elect) out of power.

A coup is trying to instill a particular person - i.e. Trump - into power.

jill_valentine

briany wrote: »

Doing what you describe would have been the literal end of the United States as we know it. There would have been absolutely no way for the two parties to move forward with any good faith whatsoever, and no reconciliation between the supporters of the parties. So, by kow-towing to one mob, Republican representatives would have been creating another situation much worse and even more dangerous. You'd think that by weighing that balance, enough of them would have done the right thing.

You would think. And yet. Right now in PA they're simply refusing to seat an indisputably elected Dem for no coherent reason, after SC rulings making it clear he is such.

Right now there are a million security experts making it clear that going along with Trump's big lie guarantees more violence, but as a party, they're doing so anyway.

If the Dems had won a few less states they would absolutely have challenged and tried to overturn the remainder, as they tried with Georgia.

In these and many other cases, GOP simply don't respect democratic decisions that don't go their way. The end of the United States as we know it is evidently no big issue for them.

emmalynn19

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you. And this wasn't that.

Youre right, it was a failed coup attempt.

partyguinness

rossie1977 wrote: »

Ok so if SF stood outside Leinster House along with thousands of supporters and claimed they were fraudulently denied during last election and then you and few thousand others with weapons, stormed the dail while in session shouting "hang Leo Varadkar" what would you call it?

Oh no...play fair now.

You use the words 'weapons'. Firstly, it is legal to carry weapons and all sorts of high powered guns in public in the US. Of course 'weapons' are not just guns. But by all accounts I have seen the mob did not have any weapons. Water bottles, rope and ties if you want to stretch it out.

Now by all accounts the mob at Capitol Hill were not carrying or brandishing guns either or any weapons of note. Which is strange really. Surely if you were serious about an insurrection/coup/putsch you would have brought your guns? The mob were dressed defensively and not offensively.

So really I am left with the distinct impression it really was nothing more than a protest march that escalated and should not have happened. The sting of a dying wasp.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you. And this wasn't that.

While most there were usefiul idiots, it was intended to be an attempted coup by some individuals. It's what they are going to be charged with: seditious conspiracy which is defined as " conspiring to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force”

Quin_Dub

partyguinness wrote: »

Oh no...play fair now.

You use the words 'weapons'. Firstly, it is legal to carry weapons and all sorts of high powered guns in public in the US. Of course 'weapons' are not just guns. But by all accounts I have seen the mob did not have any weapons. Water bottles, rope and ties if you want to stretch it out.

Now by all accounts the mob at Capitol Hill were not carrying or brandishing guns or weapons of note. Which is strange really. Surely if you were serious about an insurrection/coup/putsch you would have brought your guns? The mob were dressed defensively and not offensively.

So really I am left with the distinct impression it really noting more than a protest march that escalated and should not have happened.

Tell that to the Police Officer that had the crap beaten out of him with flagpoles.

Also , a not insignificant number were carrying actual pitchforks.

ohnonotgmail

partyguinness wrote: »

Oh no...play fair now.

You use the words 'weapons'. Firstly, it is legal to carry weapons and all sorts of high powered guns in public in the US. Of course 'weapons' are not just guns. But by all accounts I have seen the mob did not have any weapons. Water bottles, rope and ties if you want to stretch it out.

Now by all accounts the mob at Capitol Hill were not carrying or brandishing guns either or any weapons of note. Which is strange really. Surely if you were serious about an insurrection/coup/putsch you would have brought your guns? The mob were dressed defensively and not offensively.

So really I am left with the distinct impression it really was nothing more than a protest march that escalated and should not have happened. The sting of a dying wasp.

there were weapons present. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/stun-guns-stinger-whips-crossbow-what-police-found-capitol-protesters-n1254127

swampgas

partyguinness wrote: »

Oh no...play fair now.

You use the words 'weapons'. Firstly, it is legal to carry weapons and all sorts of high powered guns in public in the US. Of course 'weapons' are not just guns. But by all accounts I have seen the mob did not have any weapons. Water bottles, rope and ties if you want to stretch it out.

Now by all accounts the mob at Capitol Hill were not carrying or brandishing guns or weapons of note. Which is strange really. Surely if you were serious about an insurrection/coup/putsch you would have brought your guns? The mob were dressed defensively and not offensively.

So really I am left with the distinct impression it really noting more than a protest march that escalated and should not have happened.

Take your fingers out of your ears and stopping digging a deeper hole. The evidence is pretty clear. Just because there weren't tanks on the lawn doesn't mean that it wasn't an attempted coup.

Overheal

partyguinness wrote: »

Oh no...play fair now.

You use the words 'weapons'. Firstly, it is legal to carry weapons and all sorts of high powered guns in public in the US. Of course 'weapons' are not just guns. But by all accounts I have seen the mob did not have any weapons. Water bottles, rope and ties if you want to stretch it out.

Now by all accounts the mob at Capitol Hill were not carrying or brandishing guns either or any weapons of note. Which is strange really. Surely if you were serious about an insurrection/coup/putsch you would have brought your guns? The mob were dressed defensively and not offensively.

So really I am left with the distinct impression it really was nothing more than a protest march that escalated and should not have happened. The sting of a dying wasp.

So really you haven’t a clue. Guns are not allowed to be open carried in DC. No hope of being rifles

JJayoo

This thread is a bizarre echo chamber, a perfect example of the tribal element we see now in american politics/society. My side vs your side, zero middle ground, never ever see any positive in an opposing view, double down if you say something daft and support 100% without question anything from your team.

So moving forward what does america do? Ok so all trump supporters, the 70+ million plus all the new ones who will be eligible to vote in 4 years, these people are all lunatics and morons? Fantastic stuff.

Can anyone posting in this thread name a single positive thing that happened under the trump presidency? Or to know of such a thing be heriacy.

Trump is a clown and I'm glad he's getting the boot but at some stage you have to get tired off patting yourself on the back everytime you can make him the punchline of a joke.

Biden would be the best option for claiming some middle ground, he has been around and seems to have a cordial relationship with some high ranked republicans

BorneTobyWilde

It was a coup, an Insurrection because CNN say so. This is the world we live in., the media sow the seeds, and what follows is plenty of bullsh it ....that makes it grow strong.
In reality it was some hardcore nutjobs throwing their teddies over Biden getting elected. I find it hard to believe that this mob of gun owners, forgot their guns on the day of a Coup , they all forgot them... bull, could see how someone might forget, but all of them.
This was no coup, that only gives credit to the nutjobs, it was just plain olde nutjobs.

ohnonotgmail

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It was a coup, an Insurrection because CNN say so. This is the world we live in., the media sow the seeds, and what follows is plenty of bullsh it ....that makes it grow strong.
In reality it was some hardcore nutjobs throwing their teddies over Biden getting elected. I find it hard to believe that this mob of gun owners, forgot their guns on the day of a Coup , they all forgot them... bull, could see how someone might forget, but all of them.
This was no coup, that only gives credit to the nutjobs, it was just plain olde nutjobs.

It was called a coup long before CNN said it was. They are looking at the same evidence as the rest of us so is it any surprise that they come to the same conclusion?

Timberrrrrrrr

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It was a coup, an Insurrection because CNN say so. This is the world we live in., the media sow the seeds, and what follows is plenty of bullsh it ....that makes it grow strong.
In reality it was some hardcore nutjobs throwing their teddies over Biden getting elected. I find it hard to believe that this mob of gun owners, forgot their guns on the day of a Coup , they all forgot them... bull, could see how someone might forget, but all of them.
This was no coup, that only gives credit to the nutjobs, it was just plain olde nutjobs.

I think you'll find that it was Trump had the hissy fit over that, and while yes they forgot their guns, some bought bombs instead!

Donald Trump

Overheal wrote: »

So really you haven’t a clue. Guns are not allowed to be open carried in DC. No hope of being rifles

Guns were actually almost completely banned in DC until a Supreme Court judgement around 2015. And I gathered at the time that there was going to be some quick attempts to nullify the effects of that soon after ... but I didn't follow what was implemented.



Obviously licenced security etc. were allowed to have them even before then

Gregor Samsa

partyguinness wrote: »

Firstly, it is legal to carry weapons and all sorts of high powered guns in public in the US.

Open carry of firearms is illegal in Washington DC. They wouldn't have even been on the streets for their rally with Trump if they had been armed with firearms, let alone let anywhere near the Capitol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_District_of_Columbia

partyguinness wrote: »

But by all accounts I have seen the mob did not have any weapons. Water bottles, rope and ties if you want to stretch it out.

Many of them were armed with poles and sticks - conveniently with flags attached.

everlast75

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1350106793855205378?s=19

Appropriate that he is leaving at a time when he is recognised as the abomination he is..

everlast75

https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/1350102886601138177?s=19

partyguinness

Overheal wrote: »

So really you haven’t a clue. Guns are not allowed to be open carried in DC. No hope of being rifles

Again, if you are serious about an insurrection where were the guns these MAGA guys hold so dear:

"Lads, you know about the coup/insurrection we are planning later...well remember guns are not allowed in DC so make sure those water bottles and filled up to the last. So we can just walk right."

Answer: it was not a serious coup/insurrection.



Oh yes:


https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2021/1/12/22226819/capitol-mob-riot-guns-electoral-college-votes-biden-trump-incite-charges-impeachment-steinberg

jill_valentine

partyguinness wrote: »

Oh no...play fair now.

You use the words 'weapons'. Firstly, it is legal to carry weapons and all sorts of high powered guns in public in the US. Of course 'weapons' are not just guns. But by all accounts I have seen the mob did not have any weapons. Water bottles, rope and ties if you want to stretch it out.

Now by all accounts the mob at Capitol Hill were not carrying or brandishing guns either or any weapons of note. Which is strange really. Surely if you were serious about an insurrection/coup/putsch you would have brought your guns? The mob were dressed defensively and not offensively.

So really I am left with the distinct impression it really nothing more than a protest march that escalated and should not have happened. The sting of a dying wasp.

Is the weapons thing the new Russia report, where people act like it didn't happen, we point out it did, and then the next page they feign amnesia?

The Proud Boys leader was arrested a few days before for with illegal firearm gear, DC does take that stuff seriously. It is not open carry, and concealed carry is carefully reserved. But even so, so far police have reported finding -

- Pipe bombs
- Molotovs
- Tasers
- Knives
And yes
- Guns

... being carried by the people they've arrested, and I expect more to emerge. This doesn't account for the people the cops let go unmolested and unsearched or the obvious weapons disguised as flags per Proud Boy doctrine, like hockey sticks, axe handles or spears.

The plan was to hang people in a series of executions, as recently associated with the Michigan plotters. Hanging has a symbolic value for white supremacists for a bunch of reasons, but further to that the guys on thedonald who planned and built the gallows expressed a preference for it in particular because it was painful.

Overheal

everlast75 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1350106793855205378?s=19

Appropriate that he is leaving at a time when he is recognised as the abomination he is..

Impeachment will go through then.

His high approval ratings during the first impeachment are ultimately what saved him. That and the networks giving his lawyer round the clock airtime to spew nonsense and gaslight everything. Not the case here. No transcript you need to read to understand what’s going on

ohnonotgmail

partyguinness wrote: »

Again, if you are serious about an insurrection where were the guns these MAGA guys hold so dear:

"Lads, you know about the coup/insurrection we are planning later...well remember guns are not allowed in DC so make sure those water bottles and filled up to the last. So we can just walk right."

Answer: it was not a serious coup/insurrection.



Oh yes:


https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2021/1/12/22226819/capitol-mob-riot-guns-electoral-college-votes-biden-trump-incite-charges-impeachment-steinberg

there were guns present. That it was illegal to carry them doesn't seem to bother those mounting a coup. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/stun-guns-stinger-whips-crossbow-what-police-found-capitol-protesters-n1254127

fly_agaric

JJayoo wrote: »

Ok so all trump supporters, the 70+ million plus all the new ones who will be eligible to vote in 4 years, these people are all lunatics and morons? Fantastic stuff.

Yes, speaking from Irish/non US point of view, most of them must be pretty far down a rabbit hole of dangerous ignorance &/or political extremism to have gone out and voted for Trump again. Giving him a whirl once out of frustration or anger you can kind of understand even if it seemed a very bad idea (to me).Another 4 years, esp. after the US Covid-19 response (among many other disturbing things about his presidency)...

JJayoo wrote: »

So moving forward what does america do?

I don't know. It's a bit scary for all of us to be honest.
What's the min. safe distance if a superpower collapses violently? Another planet?
If the USA were a car there's be warning lights flashing on the dashboard and maybe a wisp of smoke coming out from under the bonnet!