The Ivermectin discussion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887124#Comment_117887124

I was talking about melatonin this evening (which you butted into) and havent mentioned ivermectin in days.

This conversation is just bonkers and tiresome.

I think you need to calm down.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887149#Comment_117887149

Im an Engineer. Im not a proponant of Ivermectin but i would not discount it either. I am also vaxxed but would also have a healthy scepticism of pharma companies.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887181#Comment_117887181

The title of the thread and the continuous griftiness around Ivermectin has tainted the talk of what may be other valid treatments that appear on this thread. I think the Ivermectin conversation is basically at a standstill until it gets approved by a trusted authority (EMA, FDA, MHRA, PFSB) or some decently run double blind trial results appear.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887181#Comment_117887181

Well the thread is about Invecterim and the vast majority of this thread has been about this particular drug. Also promoting unproven cures/treatments for a dangerous disease when a effective treatment is freely available ie multiple different approved vaccines is very deceptive and unethical. I wouldn't call myself angry more frustrated. The tactics used (whether knowingly or unknowingly)to promote unproven/ineffective remedies are very similar are very similar to other scams/conspiracy theories etc such as drinking bleach, flat earth, MMR causes autism etc.

I do note however when requested for an example of Invecterim (which this thread is about) being approved you've changed the subject.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887190#Comment_117887190

Im not saying either everyone needs to take ivermectin in ireland, but Im watching with interest how this pans out.

My advice to anyone is take a vaccine when available, but there is more adjuvants than that.

Being healthy, good diet exercise, certain vitamins and supplements might help also.

I also believe people should be daily using mouthwash like the Japanese do.

We havent had a proper pandemic in 100 hundread years so we have a lazy attitude abit to good cold and flu hygiene.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887236#Comment_117887236

I agree it would be good to re-title thread (i.e Theraputics for Covid )if that were possible.

Im kinda bored with ivermectin, it may never be a covid treatment in ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887240#Comment_117887240

Its not a treatment in ireland for covid.

I couldnt get it nor you if you tried.

We had discussed it previously.

Im not promoting it nor do I think its an especially dangerous drug for animal use only.

Im just watching the story unfold just like you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058140590/ivermectin-emerges-as-theraputic-for-covid

What about changing thread title to "Theraputics for Covid"

Lumen

There's a clear line between following the science and waiting for new treatments to be approved, and promoting/self-prescribing unapproved treatments on the basis that the medical/scientific community is excessively cautious and/or corrupted.

I'm surprised recent posts haven't fallen foul of the "no medical advice" rule on boards.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887568#Comment_117887568

So there is nothing on planet earth 🌍, no medication in the entire planet that could be given to slow down or even do anything to this pandemic, nothing on the face of the earth

There are indeed medications that could be given to slow down this pandemic. They are called vaccines. There are also approved antibodies and antivirals, plus steroids have been shown to help with symptoms.

There are also a lot of chancers out there pushing unapproved, unproven treatments for their own extremely questionable reasons. That's where things start to fall apart a bit.

Unicorn Milk Latte

@Woody79, in your relentless attempts to get people to poison themselves with various snake oil variants, you may have overlooked Iodine:

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/betadine-anti-vaxxer-covid-treatment-iodine-1225438/

Ineffective, dangerous, popular among antivaxxers - what's not to like?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889612#Comment_117889612

Not available in europe.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890901#Comment_117890901

But not believed to be of any great use even in Japan, more likely to be a placebo effect if any. It also pushes people down the road of even more quackery.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890926#Comment_117890926

Well said.

Points well made.

Goldengirl

Thread should be renamed.

Suggestions ?

" Ivermectin emerges as a pile of twaddle "

Or ...

"Ivermectin merges with various alternative non cures as a distraction from Covid reality " ?

Unicorn Milk Latte

"Curiosity Cola emerges as a therapeutic for Covid"

"Idiot's guide to Covid treatment snake oil brands"

"Covid and mental health - increase in self harming"

"Covid and mental health - how antivax conspiracy narratives create fear, uncertainty and doubt"

"Covid and mental health - is trying to commit suicide by ingesting Ivermectin a cry for help?"

"Ivermectin emerges as a therapeutic for parasitic intestinal worms"

MilkyToast

Betadine mouth wash and nasal spray have been on the market, over the counter, for years. Whether they're effective against SARS-CoV-2 is not known, though I suspect the ongoing Phase 2 trial at the University of Kentucky will shed some light (I don't know if Rolling Stone, that bastion of scientific expertise, will run the results).

It's amazing that we are only now discovering that all these readily-available, previously-considered-safe-over-millions-of-doses, long-standing medicines and other treatments are actually deathly dangerous and only for stupid people—and discovering it at the very moment there is even a suggestion that they may have some effectiveness in the prevention or treatment of Covid-19. Magic.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117893695#Comment_117893695

A suggestion is no evidence of anything and some would follow the yellow brick road rather than get vaccinated. The WHO and others have been looking at possible repurposing since this started but few have matched up. As always you do a proper trial and show that it works, sharing a link on Facebook is not a trial.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117893695#Comment_117893695

Overdosing on anything is dangerous, a lot of the remedies have known side effects which are acceptable if they're treating someone who's sick and the remedy gives a positive results, everything else is a variation of "live better, get your vitamins".

A lot of people use various mouthwash but they don't use it to ward off SARS-COV2, even though it will kill most of the virus it comes into contact with when you're actively using it, it's effects when you're not using it will be fairly small (similar with the nasal sprays that will probably help for a while).

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117893695#Comment_117893695

The antiviral effects of povidone-iodine have been known for years. I'd have been surprised if it wasn't active against the Covid virus. What's not clear is how you would use this as prophylaxis against Covid (gargle it twice a day until the pandemic ends?) or how it would help someone who's already infected.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894861#Comment_117894861

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894870#Comment_117894870

Hmmm the cynical part of my brain is already devising a chewing gum product based on mouth wash and iodine now. The effects of chewing it probably would not be preventative for much longer than - as you both point out above - when you are doing something like actively gargling mouth wash. But the fact chewing gum stays in your mouth a lot longer than mouth wash will make the consumer feel like they have a preventative product for a much longer period of time. You could probably make a tidy little profit off the alternative medicine types who do not think too deeply about their medications - or care much when trials and studies fail to find any benefits.

Anyone want to front up some capital to get it started? I used to work for a company that produced Bubble Gum products so I have some base experience and knowledge already :)

MilkyToast

Yes, overdosing on things is dangerous, randomised, placebo controlled studies are hard to come by on short notice in a pandemic situation, and very few of the things that initially show promise will end up being of any use against the pandemic virus. My point is more that the "hUrR DuRr nObOdY EvEr hEaRd oF MoUtHwAsH AnD IvErMeCtIn iS FoR ShEeP" holier-than-though-everybody-but-me-is-dumb posts are lies, whether through intent or ignorance. More so than the "pro" Ivermectin posts, really, since those have by and large acknowledged that Ivermectin has shown promise in some studies but more information is needed.

Not gonna lie, being so "against" a drug that you will actively lie about it on the interwebs is really **** weird, guys, and some of you should give your heads a wobble.

One study that was done with Betadine found that gargling with saline was more effective at reducing instances of the flu. Cite that ****, instead of this "OMG DANGEROUS SNAKE OIL 4 IDIOTS" crap.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895310#Comment_117895310

If somebody is trying to sell you mouthwash to fight SARS-COV2, it is snake oil, it's available freely for anybody to buy and use, there doesn't need to be a campaign or website behind it, there won't be a much of a study run because it's not worth doing so (even the deep pocket manufacturers know what the result would be, better dental health and might clear the virus in the mouth while being gargled).

I guess the point of this thread is to look at promising treatments but it has descended into "this one old trick will keep you free of COVID-19(sic)" style clickbait or "the manufacturer doesn't want you to know".

https://odysee.com/%40FrontlineCovid19CriticalCareAlliance%3Ac/Weekly_Update_SupressionofGoodScience%3A3

Discussion about ivermectin.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895722#Comment_117895722

Nobody is trying to sell anything; people are just posting things they think are interesting. But to say there doesn't need to be a campaign behind an effective prophylactic or therapeutic treatment is silly. Let's say, for example, that tomorrow it was discovered that taking three thirty-second gargles of Betadine a day was a 79% effective prophylactic for Covid-19 (it's not, obviously). In what world would you not make that widely known and use it in conjunction with vaccines? Like you seem to think that "be healthy, take your vitamins" is just sooooo obvious it shouldn't need to be said, but that's just a failure of imagination. Plenty of people who've never even thought about vitamin D went out and stocked up when it became apparent that vitamin D deficiency was strongly correlated with more severe disease early in the pandemic. They didn't just intuit that by themselves. They read it or heard it somewhere. And even back then there were some absolute **** clowns jumping over themselves to say that vitamin D was dangerous, as though people were going to start chugging 92392873 IU a day.

Unless you're talking about people just talking about potential therapies etc like we are in this thread? In which case expecting people to stop it is even sillier.

I don't know why you all spend so much time in the thread if it bothers you that much. Just leave it alone. I'll PM you all if there's another suspected horse paste death so you can all come in to laugh about it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894870#Comment_117894870

https://c19pvpi.com/

Theres more than a few studies to show real world effects of povidone-iodine on covid.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897064#Comment_117897064

https://c19pvpi.com/

Theres actually alot less evidence of vitamin d than povidone iodine.

Taking vitamin d if you got covid in the morning would be fairly useless as studies have shown.

You need to be taking it for weeks/months beforehand.

My only logical reason why alot of people and to an extent health authorities are so against early treatments is they must think it will stop people getting vaccinated.

I'm vaccinated but still interested in early treatments.

The two main lads in flccc in USA are vaccinated at their earliest opportunity.

Maybe early treatments will only become more of a thing when almost everyone dieing from the disease is vaccinated.

Its an emotive issue as can be seen on this thread.

Everyone in the first instance should be vaccinated but as the WHO said recently vaccines will not end the pandemic.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897410#Comment_117897410

It's not an emotive issue; it's a scientific issue. Drooling idiots just allow the media to drag them around by the nose until they end up taking horse paste or trying to pretend on the internet that ivermectin is only ever for sheep. Same kind of idiot. Slightly different temperament.

And yeah, anything that works against Covid is going to be better than taking vitamin D on the day you get sick. The vitamin D thing is just a correlation and could easily be explained by more vitamin D means (generally) more time in the sun which means a more active/healthier lifestyle. I still take it.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895310#Comment_117895310

Povidone iodine is toxic in usual amounts that kill bacteria, haven't heard of antiviral properties until I read those studies that Woody79 posted .

Again I would not like to be relying on it to protect against infection .

And why are you calling people " drooling idiots"? Its uncivil and rude .

This thread is interesting from a purely" what if " POV because so far all that has worked to any degree are vaccines. And they are not the endpoint it appears.

All of these " therapeutics" are not going to prevent infection , but are either placebos or at their very best may help clear an infection faster in those mildly affected .

No harm though as long as people know the difference .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897564#Comment_117897564

If emotions didnt come into covid, everyone would get vaccinated.

The virus is just doing its thing, but the world has not been brilliant at coming together to defeat this disease.

Here we are 18 months in and its still killing 10k a day minimum unfortunately.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897724#Comment_117897724

When it comes into people not taking vaccines its a distrust of good science. Spreading bad science or absolute snake oil is a massive problem and a driver of people not taking vaccines. Even on this thread we have people who distrust pharma companies. That's fair enough a healthy amount of skepticism is always warranted about anything. However the pharmaceutical industry is one of the most regulated industries out there. Snake oil sales people are not subject/don't adhere to the same regulations. If you are going to be skeptical of the pharmaceutical industry fair enough but you should be even more skeptical of alternative medicine and claims that are unsupported by science.

Muddying the water with bad science and suggesting doubt where there is none is a trade mark tactic of science deniers. That's my issue about your post about Invecterim. There is no good science behind it when it comes to the treatment of Covid based on my reading of the thread. You post constantly suggesting otherwise which creates doubt to people of certain disposition. If you look at the whole MMR debacle and even the thread on this forum about vaccine effectiveness. It's the same strategy constantly reference bad science to create doubt where there is none. Inevitably some people will listen won't get a vaccine and die.

As others have said there is a massive difference between raising awareness of potential new treatments and constantly pushing unproven treatments.

PureIsle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897564#Comment_117897564

Yeah, sure.

That is why in hospitals Covid patients are injected with a massive dose of Vit D.

No, I won't be searching for you to confirm that.

Believe what you like, I am not here to convince you of anything.

Whether or not you feel you want to convince anyone of anything - or not - the simple fact is that if you say something and pre-decline any attempts at verification - then it is difficult to treat your words as anything but stuff you made up on the spot.

That said however - whether or not a particular procedure or medication is used in practice in hospitals - is not in and of itself evidence of efficacy or veracity. Especially in places like the US. And you are not clear above whether you are referring to practices in Ireland - another country - or universally in all hospitals everywhere.

But just to give you a random example of what I mean. The British Medical Journal sifted through thousands of standard medical treatments (Source Paper Titled: Evidence at the point of care - see some of us do not just state things and refuse to look up the citations for our own positions). Evidence for the benefit of the standards was only found in barely 40% of them.

Half of them had entirely unknown effectiveness. Yet Medical Insurance was paying for them and doctors were using them.

So if you want to know if a treatment or procedure is effective or useful - it being a routinely given treatment is simply misleading and irrelevant in many cases. We should never ask "What are hospitals doing" so much as "Why is the hospital doing that?".

GooglePlus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898100#Comment_117898100

It's well proven now that Vitamin D plays a vital role in our immune system and a number of other functions within the body. If you're chronically low on Vitamin D throughout your life, you might not even notice but you're massively increasing your risk of premature death by Cancer and other age related diseases.

https://www.marinomed.com/en/news/marinomed-biotech-ag-publishes-clinical-data-on-efficacy-of-carragelose-lozenges-against-respiratory-viruses-including-sars-cov-2-in-the-international-journal-of-general-medicine

Interesting Austrian paper.

I like this product.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897927#Comment_117897927

Well said.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898100#Comment_117898100

As far as I'm aware there is no established causal link between vitamin D deficiency and more severe Covid-19, but there is correlation. Honestly, that is enough for me, in a pandemic situation. Where the suggested therapy is abundantly available, provably safe and has enough correlation with better outcomes, it should be provided to patients who want to use it on the basis of informed consent. I've been taking high-dose vitamin D since a while before the pandemic, anyway.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900103#Comment_117900103

Diet and vitamin d levels are important for optimum health.

This is an inflammatory disease, would it therefore be wise to have an anti-inflammatory diet with adequate vitamin d levels?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900103#Comment_117900103

https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/vitamins-reduce-covid-risk

Zoe research study that involves millions of britons found correlation in reduced liklihood of people of testing positive who took the following:

Multivitamin.

Vitamin D.

Probiotic (improves immune system/gut health).

Omega 3.

No correlation with people who take vitamin c as a preventative, vitamin c seems more useful when you are sick.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900282#Comment_117900282

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900214#Comment_117900214

I don't know what point you're trying to make? I said there's evidence of correlation and you made two posts saying there's evidence of correlation. Where's the disagreement?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900300#Comment_117900300

Theres no disagreement.

Its a discussion.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899266#Comment_117899266

This is true . Not 'massively 'but in part .

The issue here is people grasping on to very much trace supplements and crediting them with way more effects than has ever been attributed except in quackology .

Most doctors would check Vit D on their patients routine bloods and recommend a supplement in patients who are at risk or elderly . Other younger patients would be told to eat more green veg or get out and get a bit of sun .

The real benefit of Vit D is in preventing infection by building immunity .

It doesn't have any role in treatment .

@Woody79 An anti inflammatory diet , like the Mediterranean diet while a good thing , is for chronic inflammatory conditions.

What happens in Covid is an acute reaction and in most cases that is what is needed to clear and fight off the virus . That is why anti inflammatory drugs like steroids are kept until strictly necessary to treat because doctors don't want to dampen your body's natural response , initially anyway . The problem is when the body's response goes into overdrive , the cytokine storm, and attacks itself . That is when multiple organ inflammation and damage occurs .

Diet may help after an infection alright .

Sorry not meaning to be negative but it's a bxxch of an illness .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900214#Comment_117900214

Thing is most diets most of the time have perfectly adequate Vitamin D levels already.

As for diets sure - it's very important I think in general but is also very individual at times - and I tried out many fad and recommended diets myself before I found the one that worked for me. Which meant I read through heaps of absolute bollox nonsense too. I tried read everything and tried much - reading about madness like the Cayenne Pepper diets - and also trying out things like high fat low carb - and then high carb low fat - and vegetarian diets - and total high meat and protein diets - the works. In the end I found a diet where actually eating more has me healthier and fitter and I have not been sick with even a mild cold for quite a few years now.

People pointing out that "If you're chronically low on Vitamin D" you will have problems are not actually saying anything useful. They are certainly not saying anything that justifies supplementation or with hitting Covid Patients with one off massive doses in the hospital. All they are doing is saying something that is A) obvious and B) applies to just about every other vitamin, mineral, or substance in your diet too.

A case in point: If you were "chronically low" on arsenic you might even suffer badly. But the fact is A) You are unlikely to ever be chronically low on it and B) the fact that being chronically low on it would be a bad thing is not relevant when considering whether you should be taking supplements of it when in fact supplementing would be harmful.

Vitamin D is essentially the same thing! You are A) unlikely to be low in it and B) supplementing is unlikely to do most people any good and might in fact be harmful.

Further those people who are "chronically low" should not assume that supplementing will even help. It would entirely depend on the cause of their being low. Some causes lend themselves to supplementation while others do not. You need the opinions of doctors to help here. For example if the water level in my bucket is seriously low - and this is because the bottom of the bucket is riddled with large holes - then simply throwing in more water is not going to solve the issue. Treating the symptom and not the cause is often not helpful and sometimes is the opposite of helpful.

I have never been sure why Vitamin D attracts the particular emotional response it does. Some people are really emotionally invested in it in my anecdotal experience. But when you go to the research there is not much there showing that anything but a very small cohort of people need to have it in their consciousness at all any more than they should be worrying about their arsenic levels.

But as I think someone already pointed out on the thread in recent days - people do love a pill. It makes some even feel like they are taking control of their health and doing something. Which often feels odd when you see obviously obese people shove in the fast food and then popping vitamin pills because they think it keeps them "fit and healthy". If it works for them great - but one can also wonder if maybe they should try a walk and stop food fisting their gobs sometime :)

But Covid terrifies some people. So if taking vitamin D pills brings them well being and makes them feel shielded then that is not a bad thing I guess. Placebo effects might even boost not just their well being but some of their health too. Supplementing Vitamin D can actually be harmful though but sure in places like the US one can not even be sure that when you buy a Vitamin D tablet - that it actually contains any Vitamin D. It is so unregulated that some studies of over the counter supplementation there has found that the supplements contain little to no traces of the thing the container purports to be supplementing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902416#Comment_117902416

Fantastic points.

Ubbquittious

I reckon people see "For equine use only" on the packet and then they think "Oh right, that means we can just horse it in"

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.07.20180448v1.full.pdf

Interesting.

Ten of Swords

Thread title updated, long overdue

PureIsle

Most have heard of the placebo effect and acknowledge it is real. So a substance which should not, technically, have any beneficial effect actually does, because the patient believes it will.

In IVM we have a substance which is believed to be very beneficial in the treatment of Sars2 infections and the resulting Covid disease. That belief is held by very many people, including some of the very best qualified people in the field as well as many medical personnel.

IVM has been shown over the very many years of its use for other purposes to be very safe in recommended dosage .... dependent on weight of patient for the most part I believe.

So, is there any reason NOT to take IVM? ..... none that I know about. In the recommended dosage it has no safety concerns of note, and minimal adverse effects.

Does it matter to the patient if the effect of taking the substance is due to its inherent properties or to a placebo effect? If there is a beneficial result I certainly would not care, would you?

It is difficult for me to understand the huge opposition to anyone taking this, or indeed to it being made available on prescription, for whatever reason a doctor prescribes it.

The medication available to any patient should be between the doctor and the patient, and not dictated by idiots referring to 'horse paste' when they are well aware of it use in humans. After all most of us posting here are not horses ...... but some might well be asses for all I know!

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910809#Comment_117910809

Then dont even give them ivermectin, give them a blue pill placebo.

The recommended dose for ivermectin for parasites is a single dose. Its not meant for or been properly tested for continuous use.

All meds have side effects its completely irresponsible to advocate widespread use as a placebo.

If you think you have parasites talk to your doctor about ivermectin.

If you are concerned re covid take the vaccine - and remember some people are jumping on ivermectin as an alternative to vaccines.

If you need covid treatment there are proven steroids such as dexamethasone. For home treatment the UK are using an inhaler steroid becotide I think. Not sure of its status here but thats what you should ask your doctor about.

PureIsle

An update on the legal case started in India initially against a representative of the WHO for discouraging the use of Ivermectin against Covid, based on the view of Merck a pharma company, and not on any scientific study to back her views. It has moved on since and this is covered in this interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD9BYCYwsUI