Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

flazio

Bring back the grooves.

El_Duderino 09

flazio wrote: »

Bring back the grooves.

Unthank

Burkie1203

Charlie-Bravo wrote: »

I have no idea. Long gone are the days when there was refueling and drivers drove the cars to their limit all race. Take away refueling, add engine penalties etc and the spectacle has been reduced. It's really hard to know (from my very limited knowledge) how they would be able to manufacture tyres that are more robust but go off the cliff after a short X amount of laps. Maybe the suggestion to use all three compounds in a race would then ensure enough variables in a race to make it entertaining again.

Sprinklers. Or random safety cars

Infoanon

It is really hard to see beyond another championship for Lewis and Mercedes. The numbers don't lie. Max will be closer and with Perez as #2 (on a one year contract ) Honda may get the manufacturers championship they want.

Apart from that - following the 'it takes 3 years to catch back up' rule Ferrari will struggle again.

Aston Martin / Racing Point should fall behind with McLaren moving higher up the grid along with Renault.

Podiums of Lewis,Max joined by either Bottas or Perez will be de riguer in 2021 imho

pjohnson

Infoanon wrote: »

It is really hard to see beyond another championship for Lewis and Mercedes. The numbers don't lie. Max will be closer and with Perez as #2 (on a one year contract ) Honda may get the manufacturers championship they want.

Apart from that - following the 'it takes 3 years to catch back up' rule Ferrari will struggle again.

Aston Martin / Racing Point should fall behind with McLaren moving higher up the grid along with Renault.

Podiums of Lewis,Max joined by either Bottas or Perez will be de riguer in 2021 imho

Ric should be there or there abouts. They'll certainly be hoping they can mix it with Red Bull anyway.

El_Duderino 09

I’d imagine Red Bull will close the gap somewhat, and max might beat Bottas, but it’s hard to imagine Perez beating Bottas.

I’d say it could be a fairly handy constructor’s and driver’s championship get merc. But I will probably be closer with the advantage of RB being slightly more competitive and a better driver lineup.

This year RB scored 319 to Mercedes 573. RB scored 56% of Mercedes total. Even a huge improvement wouldn’t be enough.

El_Duderino 09

Engine development could be very significant next year.

Ferrari is developed new engine so hoped that will be a significant improvement over this year.

And Honda pulling out could mean they cut development for next year’s engine. Hard to know what will happen.

Has Red Bull done a deal to buy the engine technology yet or is it likely to happen at all? Red bull going back to Renault means they are out of realistic contention for the foreseeable future.

Infoanon

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Has Red Bull done a deal to buy the engine technology yet or is it likely to happen at all? Red bull going back to Renault means they are out of realistic contention for the foreseeable future.

Renault has arguably the second best engine now.

Red Bull is at the mercy of the other manufacturers, primarily Mercedes, in terms of what engine development will be allowed post Hondas departure - the politics of this will keep the hacks busy for a few months

El_Duderino 09

A few more season review points which were interesting were around Mercedes in the last race and racing point finishing fourth in the championship.

Mercedes lack of pace is supposedly explained by their use of new suspension on the car for this weekend. It’s going to be their 2021 suspension and they got to use it now so it counts as 2020 development an allows them to use their 2021 development tokens on other parts of the car.

There was a 2021 tyre test in FP2 and Mercedes spent the whole session on the new tyres (only team to do so). So they got to use the whole weekend as a test of the new suspension and they got better data on next year’s tyres and suspension.

Racing Point finished in 4th, position 7 points behind Mclaren. They got a 15 point deduction for the illegal brakes which they bought from Mercedes and were allowed to keep the brakes. That seemed like a crazy lenient penalty at the time as they seemed like they would be clear third in the championship AND they got to use the brakes. But it cost them 3ed in the championship which I think is much more proportionate to the infraction.

Harika

Thats the latest in the RedBull Honda saga: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/154373/red-bull-could-build-its-own-f1-power-units

Red Bull taking over the Honda engine department and will then push for the new engine formula to be less complex as they will then develop their own engine.
I assume the rumours will soon start that they will keep the door open to VW etc... to come in and start providing engines. Or even for any manufacturer wanting to badge an engine.

Infoanon

Harika wrote: »

I assume the rumours will soon start that they will keep the door open to VW etc... to come in and start providing engines. Or even for any manufacturer wanting to badge an engine.

The VW to F1 rumour has been doing the rounds since the 80s.
The chances of it happening have diminished greatly over the years but you can be guaranteed that there will be lots of stories in the off season about VW/F1.

Chances are close to zero.Red Bull will threaten to pull out and Mercedes will be seen to concede ground though the reality will be very different.

There will be a lot of non stories until the first GP be that Australia or somewhere else.

Harika

Infoanon wrote: »

The VW to F1 rumour has been doing the rounds since the 80s.
The chances of it happening have diminished greatly over the years but you can be guaranteed that there will be lots of stories in the off season about VW/F1.

Chances are close to zero.Red Bull will threaten to pull out and Mercedes will be seen to concede ground though the reality will be very different.

There will be a lot of non stories until the first GP be that Australia or somewhere else.

Not off season alone, the next years! Just play the surprised
Still biggest chance for RedBull going this way to get a new engine partner on board, the base is there and while I don´t see VW coming in. Hyundai or SAIC or any other of the raising manufacturers would be less of a surprise.

klose

pjohnson wrote: »

Ric should be there or there abouts. They'll certainly be hoping they can mix it with Red Bull anyway.

I've read that mclaren have to use all their upgrade tokens to fit the merc engine and as such aren't expecting a massive jump next season.

El_Duderino 09

klose wrote: »

I've read that mcaren have to use all their upgrade tokens to fit the merc engine and as such aren't expecting a massive jump next season.

I heard that was a concern for them alright. Pity they don’t get a couple of freebeees to make the engine work. I know they’d take the p1ss but it doesn’t help the competition to make them spend all their development tokens on fitting the engine.

Watching more random highlights on YouTube and if Verstappen wasn't as brilliantly quick as he is there'd be questions about his safety/driving conduct. He runs people off the road at every opportunity. The crash in Azerbaijan I remember (possibly incorrectly) thinking it was about 50/50 and that general opinion was against Ricciardo but looking at it now it's about 90% on Verstappen. He (not the only one) loves swiping across people when overtaking which is such a dumb move and has led to accidents as the overtaken driver loses downforce and braking yet seem to take the blame usually.

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Watching more random highlights on YouTube and if Verstappen wasn't as brilliantly quick as he is there'd be questions about his safety/driving conduct. He runs people off the road at every opportunity. The crash in Azerbaijan I remember (possibly incorrectly) thinking it was about 50/50 and that general opinion was against Ricciardo but looking at it now it's about 90% on Verstappen. He (not the only one) loves swiping across people when overtaking which is such a dumb move and has led to accidents as the overtaken driver loses downforce and braking yet seem to take the blame usually.

Yeah he’s box office. Completely agree that he’s on the edge and very often on the wrong side of the line. He was under pressure that year as he had made a lot of mistakes, including crashing twice in Monaco which was targeted as a potential Red Bull win.

I’d say he’s an unpleasant bloke, touch of the “Michael Jackson” about him. Not suggesting he’s a deviant, just that his being raised for a single purpose and not a rounded person at all. It’s his job to win Jos’s world championship. Top driver though.

mickdw

klose wrote: »

I've read that mclaren have to use all their upgrade tokens to fit the merc engine and as such aren't expecting a massive jump next season.

Still engine customers get the engine upgrades without token useage whereas mercedes have to use some on the engine.

El_Duderino 09

mickdw wrote: »

Still engine customers get the engine upgrades without token useage whereas mercedes have to use some on the engine.

And the gearbox and suspension if they also buy those parts from another team.

Mclaren would have gotten whatever benefits if they bought them from Renault too. Racing point is in a strong position to benefit as they buy as much as they’re allowed from Mercedes. I presume it’s the same for Haas and Alfa and Alpha.

mickdw

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And the gearbox and suspension if they also buy those parts from another team.

Mclaren would have gotten whatever benefits if they bought them from Renault too. Racing point is in a strong position to benefit as they buy as much as they’re allowed from Mercedes. I presume it’s the same for Haas and Alfa and Alpha.

So could we see a conplex business structure at red bull where alpha tauri become the works engine team of their group with redbull 'buying' in engines from them to make a development advantage for redbull. They may be in a position to do this if starting their own engine program.

El_Duderino 09

mickdw wrote: »

So could we see a conplex business structure at red bull where alpha tauri become the works engine team of their group with redbull 'buying' in engines from them to make a development advantage for redbull. They may be in a position to do this if starting their own engine program.

Ha, genius! I think you should suggest that to Christian Horner. There might be a couple of VIP tickets to the Austrian GP in it for you.

mickdw

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ha, genius! I think you should suggest that to Christian Horner. There might be a couple of VIP tickets to the Austrian GP in it for you.

Im sure they are a couple of years ahead of us with these kind of ideas.

On my usual YouTube bits and pieces... can anyone think why they haven't tried to do anything with the chicane before the hairpin in Abu Dhabi? If it was tightened up well and became a proper braking zone it could become an overtaking spot and also not ruin the close running into the hairpin/down the straight. The only guess I would hazard is that the new circuits (Middle East especially) seem to be designed to be pristine and never modified or look like they've made a mistake.

johnnysmack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

On my usual YouTube bits and pieces... can anyone think why they haven't tried to do anything with the chicane before the hairpin in Abu Dhabi? If it was tightened up well and became a proper braking zone it could become an overtaking spot and also not ruin the close running into the hairpin/down the straight. The only guess I would hazard is that the new circuits (Middle East especially) seem to be designed to be pristine and never modified or look like they've made a mistake.

There must be a dozen different tracks layouts available for Abu Dhabi so it wouldn't look like a mistake if they did decided to change anything. It was mentioned in one of the free practices that they can't remove that chicane as otherwise the F1 cars would be carrying far too much speed in the hairpin and with the stadium so close if anything were to go wrong it could be a terrible accident with wheels or even a car going into a stand.

johnnysmack

johnnysmack wrote: »

There must be a dozen different tracks layouts available for Abu Dhabi so it wouldn't look like a mistake if they did decided to change anything. It was mentioned in one of the free practices that they can't remove that chicane as otherwise the F1 cars would be carrying far too much speed in the hairpin and with the stadium so close if anything were to go wrong it could be a terrible accident with wheels or even a car going into a stand.

Aye that's why I suggested tightening up the chicane. They obviously can't get rid of it for F1 because of lack of run-off but it's the fact speed can be carried into the chicane and then it's low-speed that disrupts the racing. If they tightened it up loads and made it a harder braking zone it would make it a possible overtaking spot or at least allow some battling to let someone get a run out of the hairpin.

My image editing skills are awful and I only have MS Paint so I'll not embarrass myself. :P However if you look at how the track is ya see the first part of the chicane is wider than 90 degrees while the second part is tighter meaning you're slowing through the chicane. Tighten the left turn a good bit and you'd solve a lot of the problem IMO.

tipp_tipp_tipp

Deleted User wrote: »

Aye that's why I suggested tightening up the chicane. They obviously can't get rid of it for F1 because of lack of run-off but it's the fact speed can be carried into the chicane and then it's low-speed that disrupts the racing. If they tightened it up loads and made it a harder braking zone it would make it a possible overtaking spot or at least allow some battling to let someone get a run out of the hairpin.

My image editing skills are awful and I only have MS Paint so I'll not embarrass myself. :P However if you look at how the track is ya see the first part of the chicane is wider than 90 degrees while the second part is tighter meaning you're slowing through the chicane. Tighten the left turn a good bit and you'd solve a lot of the problem IMO.

I think that whole part of the track is flawed. I get they were trying to get the grandstands up close to the cars, but why in a 320kph sport would you want to to watch them them trundle round a boring hairpin at 80kph??

I don't know what you do with this track. Not convinced tightening up that chicane will achieve much. Not sure if the layout the v8 supercars used years ago would work which IIRC skipped that chicane-hairpin section altogether. Of course using that layout would render that grandstand worthless. If we are honest, the best solution would be to never visit this track again, and restore Interlagos as the final race. Sadly money talks.

tipp_tipp_tipp

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

I think that whole part of the track is flawed. I get they were trying to get the grandstands up close to the cars, but why in a 320kph sport would you want to to watch them them trundle round a boring hairpin at 80kph??

Grandstands are generally at slow corners, get to see the cars for longer, hear them accelerate (when the noise was a thing) and possibility of overtaking.

I don't know what you do with this track. Not convinced tightening up that chicane will achieve much. Not sure if the layout the v8 supercars used years ago would work which IIRC skipped that chicane-hairpin section altogether. Of course using that layout would render that grandstand worthless. If we are honest, the best solution would be to never visit this track again, and restore Interlagos as the final race. Sadly money talks.

I'm not sure what you're not getting. The chicane spreads out the field because it's medium-low speed. The cars slow down through the chicane because the entry is so open. So it's not a proper braking zone meaning that there's no overtaking into the chicane.
As well as that, cars can't follow through the chicane because they have to slow down through the chicane. Make the entry much tighter (it looks around 75 degrees to me, make it about 120 degrees) and you'll have a proper braking zone. Even if the chicane didn't become a real overtaking spot it could lead to some defence being necessary and people having to compromise their lines out of it, thus allowing the car behind to have a run and be tighter around the hairpin, setting up a chance down the next straight.

tipp_tipp_tipp

Deleted User wrote: »

Grandstands are generally at slow corners, get to see the cars for longer, hear them accelerate (when the noise was a thing) and possibility of overtaking.


I'm not sure what you're not getting. The chicane spreads out the field because it's medium-low speed. The cars slow down through the chicane because the entry is so open. So it's not a proper braking zone meaning that there's no overtaking into the chicane.
As well as that, cars can't follow through the chicane because they have to slow down through the chicane. Make the entry much tighter (it looks around 75 degrees to me, make it about 120 degrees) and you'll have a proper braking zone. Even if the chicane didn't become a real overtaking spot it could lead to some defence being necessary and people having to compromise their lines out of it, thus allowing the car behind to have a run and be tighter around the hairpin, setting up a chance down the next straight.

Disagree. Tighten up the chicane and the braking zone becomes 10-15 meters longer. Don't think makes a difference. Cars just aren't getting close enough out of the first turn for that to make a difference.

tipp_tipp_tipp

Deleted User wrote: »

Grandstands are generally at slow corners, get to see the cars for longer, hear them accelerate (when the noise was a thing) and possibility of overtaking.

Yeah i accept that. But in the Yas Marina case they went to town on this concept. Without the grandstands highlighted in orange (roughly) the chicane would not have been required and you would have the bigger braking zone you want

Aye it was a stupid oversight to put it so close. It really wouldn't take much to either move the hairpin back and/or have a slight left kink to get away from the grandstand a bit. The way I'd do it would look like this awful drawing attempt.



My preference would be to do the red. But the green would be fine either IMO.
Either way the problem is that as it is the current entry into the chicane is too fast meaning that the chicane as a whole is basically a braking zone and single file which makes close following impossible.

flazio

How about racing clockwise?
I can't see any stands in any danger.