Are there any Christian Brothers left in teaching?

sggleeson

Specifically principles, or have they long gone?

I can't be too pacific, but I believe they are principally six feet under.

RandRuns

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't be too pacific, but I believe they are principally six feet under.

I'm not sure I sea what you mean.

John Hutton

Long gone I think, about a decade ago there were still a handful, retired now I'd say.

Rrrrrr2

There was one aul psycho in the school I was in- long gone now I’m sure, I left early 00s. Very frustrated people with no social skills.
Lot less of them left than nuns really

sggleeson

RandRuns wrote: »

I'm not sure I sea what you mean.

Me either haha.

sggleeson

John Hutton wrote: »

Long gone I think, about a decade ago there were still a handful, retired now I'd say.

Yeah I've been trying to find out if there's any still knocking about. There doesn't seem to be any official "retirement" of them from schools.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

Did your principle not teach you about your principals?

Andrewf20

I had the last Christian brother in our school for 1 year. He retired in May 1993. Think he was in his 80s.

Gregor Samsa

In 2008, it was reported in the below article that there was less than 10 still teaching. At that point, they were handing over control of their schools to Edmund Rice Schools Trust, which is a lay organisation.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/end-of-era-for-christian-brothers-26456484.html

pauliebdub

The six or seven who were teaching at the Christian brothers I went to in the 90's have all retired, I think only two are still alive.

Most of them were actually sound.

cml387

pauliebdub wrote: »

The six or seven who were teaching at the Christian brothers I went to in the 90's have all retired, I think only two are still alive.

Most of them were actually sound.

Not what people want to hear.
I went to CB school back in the 70's.
The few Brothers left were excellent teachers and the leather was used sparingly and then not at all from 1972.

WestWicklow1

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't be too pacific, but I believe they are principally six feet under.

You mean a fathom surely :rolleyes:

LuasSimon

The ones in my old school were excellent teachers and even better over sports teams , the WOKE crowd dont want to hear that though .

McGinniesta

Thankfully I got out of the education system in the 90's. Presumably the decline has continued although I wouldn't know for sure.

Edgware

cml387 wrote: »

Not what people want to hear.
I went to CB school back in the 70's.
The few Brothers left were excellent teachers and the leather was used sparingly and then not at all from 1972.

Of course there was serious failings with a number of Christian Brothers but many dedicated brothers provided excellent education to thousands of young men when no one else would. In the days before free secondary education they got lads to study hard, win scholarships etc. (In a time where corporal punishment was prevalent in home and school)
Similar to nuns in the schools and hospitals.
I know several nurses who trained in hospitals under the charge of nursing sisters and they have the highest respect for them. The specialists/ consultants would be of the same opinion. Its easy to tar them all with the same brush.

Carodh

sggleeson wrote: »

Specifically principles, or have they long gone?

There was one Christian Brother teaching 4 years ago in CBS Primary in Ennis. I’m
Not 100% but I think he had been Principal previously.

Sardonicat

cml387 wrote: »

Not what people want to hear.
I went to CB school back in the 70's.
The few Brothers left were excellent teachers and the leather was used sparingly and then not at all from 1972.

Really, they stopped using it 10 years before they had to?

dodzy

cml387 wrote: »

Not what people want to hear.
I went to CB school back in the 70's.
The few Brothers left were excellent teachers and the leather was used sparingly and then not at all from 1972.

Vincents in Glasnevin took up the mantle....and ran with it for years after.

begbysback

cml387 wrote: »

Not what people want to hear.
I went to CB school back in the 70's.
The few Brothers left were excellent teachers and the leather was used sparingly and then not at all from 1972.

lol, you say that with a straight face chief?

Hamachi

LuasSimon wrote: »

The ones in my old school were excellent teachers and even better over sports teams , the WOKE crowd dont want to hear that though .

This matches my experience in a CBS. I did my leaving cert in 2000. Three of my subject teachers (Maths, Irish, and Geography) were brothers.

All three were incredibly dedicated educators, in addition to investing a huge amount of their personal time into extra curriculars like sport and music.

Their dedication is really evident in the success of many of my old classmates. A significant number are doctors, dentists, solicitors, and engineers. One guy is a CVP of one of the tech giants in Silicon Valley. All this from a regular CBS in the west.

We owe the brothers an enormous debt of gratitude.

Gregor Samsa

Hamachi wrote: »

This matches my experience in a CBS. I did my leaving cert in 2000. Three of my subject teachers (Maths, Irish, and Geography) were brothers.

All three were incredibly dedicated educators, in addition to investing a huge amount of their personal time into extra curriculars like sport and music.

Did my leaving in ‘91. Both my primary and secondary had CB principals, and I had a handful of CB teachers. Most were grand, some were very good, one should never have been allowed teach. However, I think the likes of you and I got the best era of them, when they were fading out.

My experience of talking to relatives who went to full CB schools in the 40s, 50s, 60s is that they had it different. Some great teachers amongst them, but some absolute monsters too. The Christian Brothers weren’t forced to pay €30 million in redress to abuse victims in the early 2000s as a result of some “woke crowd” Twitter hashtag campaign, that’s for sure.

Sardonicat

Physical abuse of children was carried out by teachers across the board, not just religious. I'm a similar age to Gregor, and like that I had a mix of nuns and lau teachers. One or two lunatics who should never have been anywhere near children (nuns and non nuns), decent teachers who'd occasionally resort to a slap and teachers who would never harm a hair on your head. The boys in the local CBS schools, primary and secondary, had more experience of being beaten and this continued long after 1982. There was a tolerance for physical violence against boys that took a long while to be eradicated. Again, it wasn't all the teachers and it wasn't only brothers.

Grab All Association

There was a Brother Fitzgerald teaching in the CBS Thurles circa 2002, presume long since retired. Well liked by students iirc. The monastery house was recently sold to Thurles Lions Club and is used for social housing.

cml387

Sardonicat wrote: »

Really, they stopped using it 10 years before they had to?

Yes.

A new (CB) principle took over around that time and corporal punishment just disappeared. There was no "Big Announcement", it just faded away.

Hamachi

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

However, I think the likes of you and I got the best era of them, when they were fading out.

My experience of talking to relatives who went to full CB schools in the 40s, 50s, 60s is that they had it different. Some great teachers amongst them, but some absolute monsters too.

I’ve heard similar tales from my Dad and uncles, who attended the same school in the ‘70s. According to them, the brutality was meted out just as frequently by some of the lay teachers as it was by the brothers.

Have no direct experience to relate. All I know for sure, is that I benefited from a very rigorous education that really set me up for the great life I enjoy today. I’m hugely thankful to them.

I’m 38 and there were still significant numbers of brothers teaching when I did my leaving cert in 2000. I assumed that was standard in CBS’ across the country. However, reading this thread the consensus seems to be that the brothers had virtually withdrawn or retired from teaching by the early ‘90s. Was my school an anomaly?

Galwayguy35

Wasn't taught by Christian Brothers but it wasn't just them who were handy with their fists, saw it with my own eyes when 3 lads in my class were thumped black and blue by teachers and they got away with it.

Never the middle class kid that got walloped though.

Zaph

Went to a CB school, did my Leaving in 1984. At that time there were three brothers left - the principal, it was his first year there, had very limited dealings with him but he was a bit of a self-righteous asshole from what I saw. The second was a very strange little man who was probably the most gifted educator I've ever come across. He taught so many subjects, and he taught them all so well. Not a pupil in the school would ever have a bad word to say about him. The third was a complete and utter prick of the highest order. His teaching methods were from the 1950s, he completely destroyed my love for one of my favourite subjects, to the point that I failed it in my Leaving. He really had no business being there imo. There were also a couple of others who left while I was in the school. One who apparently, although I never witnessed it myself, took a gleefully sadistic pleasure when dishing out the leather (which was banned after my first year). And the old principal who, and I did unfortunately witness this myself many times, took an unhealthy interest in students showering after PE.

Dyr

Went to a CB school in the 80s that had many a former pupil in high society. all the brothers that were still around were mental, either psychos, pervs or just plain weirdos. The ordinary teachers werent much better, bullies and oddballs

After a few years of that I refused to go anymore and was sent to the local national secondary school which had a tough reputation but the teachers were actually fine.

Gregor Samsa

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

saw it with my own eyes when 3 lads in my class were thumped black and blue by teachers and they got away with it.

Never the middle class kid that got walloped though.

Certainly there were lay teachers that were animals. Had plenty of those myself. Maybe it depends on what your definition of “middle class” is (especially in the 80s) but they certainly didn’t take socioeconomic strata into account when beating children up or hanging them out a second storey window by the ankles in my school. Equal opportunity violence.

But just remember, it wasn’t just the fact that it was sometimes CBs themselves dishing out the punches. It was the fact that it was the Christian Brothers that ran the schools, that were in charge, that created the atmosphere where teachers in their schools - religious or lay - could beat kids with impunity. It was institutional. That’s the crime.

ohnonotgmail

cml387 wrote: »

Not what people want to hear.
I went to CB school back in the 70's.
The few Brothers left were excellent teachers and the leather was used sparingly and then not at all from 1972.

1982 surely and they stopped because it was banned.

John Hutton

Zaph wrote: »

Went to a CB school, did my Leaving in 1984. At that time there were three brothers left - the principal, it was his first year there, had very limited dealings with him but he was a bit of a self-righteous asshole from what I saw. The second was a very strange little man who was probably the most gifted educator I've ever come across. He taught so many subjects, and he taught them all so well. Not a pupil in the school would ever have a bad word to say about him. The third was a complete and utter prick of the highest order. His teaching methods were from the 1950s, he completely destroyed my love for one of my favourite subjects, to the point that I failed it in my Leaving. He really had no business being there imo. There were also a couple of others who left while I was in the school. One who apparently, although I never witnessed it myself, took a gleefully sadistic pleasure when dishing out the leather (which was banned after my first year). And the old principal who, and I did unfortunately witness this myself many times, took an unhealthy interest in students showering after PE.

One of the terrible things about the abuse (pales in comparison to the suffering of the victims which was obviously the worst) is that great educators, like the one you mentioned, good Christian Brothers of which there were many, have had their reputations absolutely destroyed and tainted. Blessed Edmund Rice should have been remembered as one of the greatest Irishmen.

JayRoc

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

JeffreyEpspeen

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

I want to agree but can we really hold these people to the standards of today?

Sardonicat

JeffreyEpspeen wrote: »

I want to agree but can we really hold these people to the standards of today?

In what era was raping children acceptable?

JeffreyEpspeen

Sardonicat wrote: »

In what era was raping children acceptable?

It was never acceptable but it would be easier for someone with knowledge of it to do something about it now than it was then.

Mrs OBumble

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

Agreed. So were the guards, lawyers, judges, doctors, education department officials.

cml387

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

1982 surely and they stopped because it was banned.

I know when I was in school.
I'm just telling my experience, I understand others may have a different one.

Strumms

I did my leaving cert in mid 90’s in a Christian Brothers School.

There was 5 brothers left then..

The principal : a disciplinarian completely, not a very nice person from what I knew of him, meant well but overly strict and if you ended up repeatedly on his radar you would absolutely never find your way off it..he’d hound you. Ran a good school overall but a bully it must be said..

History teacher : a young guy and complete gem of a guy, mid 20’s, fûcking superb teacher, loved his subject and a total interest in helping kids to love history, learn and do well... oddly enough he was also at that time an inter-county footballer for Meath featuring heavily in their league campaign but struggling to make headway into the championship team... this obviously endeared him to the lads who’d spend most of the Monday lessons attempting to get the inside track on everything gaa.. out of a 40 minute Monday class he’s be lucky to get 20 minutes teaching done.. left the brothers now but still teaching and was in the Meath backroom / sideline team recently ..

Woodwork: I never took this subject but I’m lucky, his reputation preceded him, a nasty piece of work, whom years before ran his classes through violence and intimidation, the intimidation was still a big part of his armor, threw dusters around the room and shouted at kids.

History #2: decent teacher and bloke, good sense of humor with a passion for his subject... at times had a bit of a short fuse but rare enough.. think by the odour at times he liked a drink... passsed away I just read.

English : a total eccentric, not far from retirement, supposed to have been handy with his temper if pushed too far but he was ok with us... good teacher...

John Hutton

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

This is a dangerous misunderstanding of how abuse can take place and continue for years in an institution, whether it be a swimming team, other sports team, workplace, school etc. The disturbing reality is that it was not blatant in front of everyone, the most the vast majority of lay teachers or regular brothers would have heard or seen were vague rumors or weird vibes. Many did make complaints to their superiors.

Lets say you work in the public service or a massive company with many offices at different locations. One lad in the office seems a weirdo and some of the other staff act odd around him. You overhear some odd comments, some other staff say to you "that guy is a creep", you hear him make some weird comments. You go to your manager and tell him this, you don't have anything concrete but a lot of incidental things have built up and you are convinced there's something off about the guy and you're afraid he will or has done something. Lets say your manager doesn't just say "well I can't do anything about you getting the creeps off someone" but actually says he will investigate it. I think it's fair enough to say that you have done enough here, you've reported your concerns. All you then know is that an investigation takes place, it is found that he is not guilty but is moved to a different office. You move on with your life, because you trusted the powers that be to do the right thing. Of course, it then turns out that those investigating it found out sexual abuse had occurred and all they did is move him, where he did it again. That's not your fault.

This is how much of this sexual abuse occurred and continued in places. Because institutions were charged with investigating themselves, and people had too much respect and deference to those in authority.

If we start thinking that it occurred in front of everyone and all the teachers were like "Br Jesop is running late today? Yeah he's off raping some first years" we're wrong, because that's not the case. It makes it easier for us today to overlook or ignore things today if we just say that everyone in the school was a monster.

Of course, things are different today because multiple outside agencies have to be involved and there are much more checks and balances. The abuse happened because those in authority, and the system, allowed and permitted individual evil people to get away with things. It didn't happen because every person who ever worked in a Christian brothers school was an evil monster.

boege

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

I would disagree with this view, to an extent. The system (in the 70's when I attended) was predominately lay teachers and they are therefore equally complicit, if all you say was going on in front of their eyes. Equally, parents were well aware of the corporal punishment that was being dished out in schools (in equal measures by both lay and brothers). Society, as a whole, at the time, was well aware what went on in schools and it was socially accepted, to a point. You never went home an told your parents you got punished at school. When someone crossed the boundaries it was kept quiet and covered up. The worst attack on a student I ever saw, was by a lay teacher. I would describe it as a full blown physical assault and it is etched on my memory to this day. The only incident of sexual abuse I ever came across was also by a law teacher and a number of the pupils confronted him, as that was how things were managed then. This was not a rough school by any standards at the time.

My overall experience of 10 years in primary and secondary Christian Brother schools is generally a positive one. Some good, some bad and some nutters, and then there were the brothers who were pretty similar.

silliussoddius

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

This didn't happen in isolation, Irish society just can't be let off the hook either. There is a great line in film Spotlight; if it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse a child.

quietsailor

I went to a Christian Brothers school in the nineties and there were three brothers there. They were gentlemen, they went out of their way to help us including lecturing us outside of school. The lay teachers on the other hand were sadists, bullies and bitches with one or two notable exceptions and I think they were bullied by the other teachers too

Yyhhuuu

Edgware wrote: »

Of course there was serious failings with a number of Christian Brothers but many dedicated brothers provided excellent education to thousands of young men when no one else would. In the days before free secondary education they got lads to study hard, win scholarships etc. (In a time where corporal punishment was prevalent in home and school)
Similar to nuns in the schools and hospitals.
I know several nurses who trained in hospitals under the charge of nursing sisters and they have the highest respect for them. The specialists/ consultants would be of the same opinion. Its easy to tar them all with the same brush.

A Nursing Sister may be a religious or a lay person.