Getting started, Xmas pressie kickoff!

RedXIV

Hi guys,

I'm hoping to start a new build in the next year and I've started reading bits and pieces on this forum as I'd love to take some of the techy/coding background I have and make things a bit smarter in the house. I've been reading some of the threads here about new builds and the relatively consistent advice there has been helpful (cat6 will be run EVERYWHERE!) but what I'd like to do is focus on the fact that my better half is pushing me to get me something for xmas and all I can think about is what I want in the new house.

So I'm asking folks here if there is any solid starting points I could look at for under say 200 quid? I was thinking of starting with the main switch or something that would control all the networking, but as I'm really only after diving into this in the last few days, I'm not sure if I'm missing something obvious or if I should focus on something I can use in the current house (that we'll likely be in for another 12-18 months).

Just for info, I've a few Alexa devices, raspberry pi's, and happy to start working on learning systems and writing scripts/apps to help control bits and pieces but each of these gadgets have all been added in very ad-hoc ways so I've never had a chance to design a house-wide system before.

Thanks a million guys!

RedXIV

Ok, I got sucked into a black hole of this world last night and have some questions I'm hoping are easy to answer. I'm really just looking at the infrastructure side for now as from what I'm seeing, this part is pretty crucial to get right.

1. In the plans for the house we're building, I'll have a home office beside the master bedroom, where I'll be working from home. This was my ideal place to have routers/switches etc but reading online, a lot of blogs etc mentioned having it downstairs or in the attic. Is this placement important? Will the sound of the hardware travel to annoy my light sleeping wife in the next room?
2. The sense I'm getting from everything I'm reading is that we want to wire as much as possible. Am I going to need 2 48 port switches by the time I'm done with this or do the cables get split as they reach rooms/zones?
3. I'm likely to have a concrete first floor, am I correct in that I should have Wireless access points on both floors because of this? Is there a general guidline on size/number of points in a new build or is that purely down to the hardware you're using?
4. I'm primarily interested in the media/automation side of things but having been reading about the security side and even things like future proofing for electric cars in the future, it really seems like getting the wire backbone in place to support this is the best start. Between that and planning the lights to also have neutral wires, is there anything else that should be looked at for the construction phase? i.e. I like the idea of motorised blinds in bedrooms, but does this need to be considered at this stage?
5. I had thought I'd have to build a system to try and have a singular interface to get readings, control the various elements of automation, but it looks like there are some options for this? However, prices seem to never exist on these sites, so things like control4 sound great but I can't tell what the cost is? Is there a place these costs exist or a database of costs?
6. I had thought about putting small touch screens in a few strategic places but this has appeared to be very divisive. Any thoughts on this? Or should I stick to pure physical buttons?

Thanks for anyone taking the time to read this! If there is a singular book/website or something people think I should be looking at if they don't want to dig into this, I'm more than happy for recommendations also! Was a bit concerned that most things I've seen are about 4/5 years old and may be out of date.

Cheers!
Red

Clareman

[*]In the plans for the house we're building, I'll have a home office beside the master bedroom, where I'll be working from home. This was my ideal place to have routers/switches etc but reading online, a lot of blogs etc mentioned having it downstairs or in the attic. Is this placement important? Will the sound of the hardware travel to annoy my light sleeping wife in the next room?

Clareman wrote:

There will be some noise but probably not much more than a running desktop in the room next door. People usually recommend putting the comms kit somewhere accessible but not "prime location, that's why attics or small rooms under stairs are often used. It's also a place that all cabling will have to come to so by having it in the middle means less cable needing to be ran.

[*]The sense I'm getting from everything I'm reading is that we want to wire as much as possible. Am I going to need 2 48 port switches by the time I'm done with this or do the cables get split as they reach rooms/zones?

Clareman wrote:

Cable will always trump wireless so by running as much cable as possible now you are future proofing, the network points won't only be for data either they could be used for audio/visual stuff as well. Not all devices will need to be patched at all times so you won't have to have a patch point for every socket.

[*]I'm likely to have a concrete first floor, am I correct in that I should have Wireless access points on both floors because of this? Is there a general guidline on size/number of points in a new build or is that purely down to the hardware you're using?

Clareman wrote:

Just go with a mesh network, they are coming down in price so much that they'll just sort everything out for you

[*]I'm primarily interested in the media/automation side of things but having been reading about the security side and even things like future proofing for electric cars in the future, it really seems like getting the wire backbone in place to support this is the best start. Between that and planning the lights to also have neutral wires, is there anything else that should be looked at for the construction phase? i.e. I like the idea of motorised blinds in bedrooms, but does this need to be considered at this stage?

Clareman wrote:

Everything will need to get data and power, but some of the sources of those can be wireless or part of the fitting. Now will probably be the cheapest and easiest time to put in sockets so probably a good idea to have a socket by every window anyway.

[*]I had thought I'd have to build a system to try and have a singular interface to get readings, control the various elements of automation, but it looks like there are some options for this? However, prices seem to never exist on these sites, so things like control4 sound great but I can't tell what the cost is? Is there a place these costs exist or a database of costs?

Clareman wrote:

We're still in the relative infancy of the technology here, the consumer stuff (Google, Amazon, Apple) is probably the best place to get pricing. Personally I tend to go with 1 manufacturer of product and go with those.

[*]I had thought about putting small touch screens in a few strategic places but this has appeared to be very divisive. Any thoughts on this? Or should I stick to pure physical buttons?

Clareman wrote:

I've 3 Hubs around the house (1 max and 2 normal), these work fine for me as countrol points, having a phone and tablet helps with controls as well.

Clareman

RedXIV wrote: »

Thanks for anyone taking the time to read this! If there is a singular book/website or something people think I should be looking at if they don't want to dig into this, I'm more than happy for recommendations also! Was a bit concerned that most things I've seen are about 4/5 years old and may be out of date.

Cheers!
Red

Oops, missed this 1 as well, the problem is the technology AND industry is moving so fast it's hard to keep up, keeping an eye on blogs and forums like this really is the best way to go, only problem is that it turns into an expensive hobby very quickly.

dam099

Clareman wrote: »

[*]
[*]I'm likely to have a concrete first floor, am I correct in that I should have Wireless access points on both floors because of this? Is there a general guidline on size/number of points in a new build or is that purely down to the hardware you're using?

Just go with a mesh network, they are coming down in price so much that they'll just sort everything out for you

I would agree but would want to make sure its a system with the option of ethernet backhaul, using wifi backhaul might struggle with the concrete floor (given the OP is planning to run ethernet this would be preferred anyway).

Clareman

dam099 wrote: »

I would agree but would want to make sure its a system with the option of ethernet backhaul, using wifi backhaul might struggle with the concrete floor (given the OP is planning to run ethernet this would be preferred anyway).

True, all the network points make it a perfect house. A friend of mine build a house recently with a concrete first floor, there was no wifi coverage upstairs with the free router that came from the ISP, they got a cheapey mesh system from Littlewoods (less than €100) and now they have coverage all over the house, nice and simples. As an IT Professional, I'd love to setup a mesh network based on an ethernet backhaul but there'd be a fair bit of work but the wifi solutions are simple.

ted1

Most smart devices are wireless. No real need to run Ethernet everywhere.
I’d just run multiple to TV points.
I’d also run neutral to light switches, to allow.
Run mains to inside wardrobes, on top of cabinets etc.

Clareman

ted1 wrote: »

Most smart devices are wireless. No real need to run Ethernet everywhere.
I’d just run multiple to TV points.
I’d also run neutral to light switches, to allow.
Run mains to inside wardrobes, on top of cabinets etc.

Agreed and have to say that I never thought of the mains into wardrobes and cabinets, that's a great idea.

RedXIV

Clareman wrote: »

huge helpful post

This is a great help, feeling a little less clueless

Clareman wrote: »

Oops, missed this 1 as well, the problem is the technology AND industry is moving so fast it's hard to keep up, keeping an eye on blogs and forums like this really is the best way to go, only problem is that it turns into an expensive hobby very quickly.

Yeah I'm not surprised with this. I found a book released 2 months ago and will start with that for now, are there any other forums/blogs that would be seen as very useful? again, trying to leverage experience here if there is some I don't mind it turning into an expensive hobby, every man needs a vice and this should keep me out of trouble (and financial stability )

dam099 wrote: »

I would agree but would want to make sure its a system with the option of ethernet backhaul, using wifi backhaul might struggle with the concrete floor (given the OP is planning to run ethernet this would be preferred anyway).

I had to look up what an ethernet backhaul was, but this was definitely my plan. I want to wire up as much as I can as in our current house we've about 20 things connecting to the wifi and we don't have anything like smart lights, blinds, cameras etc so in order to cut down on the wifi usage where I expect it'll be congested quick enough, and will have to supplement anything I forget

Clareman wrote: »

True, all the network points make it a perfect house. A friend of mine build a house recently with a concrete first floor, there was no wifi coverage upstairs with the free router that came from the ISP, they got a cheapey mesh system from Littlewoods (less than €100) and now they have coverage all over the house, nice and simples. As an IT Professional, I'd love to setup a mesh network based on an ethernet backhaul but there'd be a fair bit of work but the wifi solutions are simple.

I don't mind a challenge, but it sounds like a networking certification would be handy Might do a CCNA while waiting for planning permission

ted1 wrote: »

Most smart devices are wireless. No real need to run Ethernet everywhere.
I’d just run multiple to TV points.
I’d also run neutral to light switches, to allow.
Run mains to inside wardrobes, on top of cabinets etc.

I've a house with extension leads all over it so plugs every few feet is a realistic probability not sure what mains inside a wardrobe would do though? on top of cabinets makes sense for lights, access points maybe but I'm not sure what I'm missing here?

RedXIV

Clareman wrote: »

Agreed and have to say that I never thought of the mains into wardrobes and cabinets, that's a great idea.

sorry I'm trying to get to these as fast as I can! thanks so much guys! Appreciate the help in getting started!


One thing to note is I asked a former college buddy who's a network engineer about hardware and he said if he was building a home set up, he'd use a unifi setup, which looks cool but pricy. I can find loads cheaper but quality for the backbone is something I don't mind spending a bit of money on, but is this like buying a Rolls Royce when a Toyota will do?

Clareman

Everything is getting so easy now that stuff like UniFi is awesome but chances are you won't use half of the features, with WiFi 6 and 5G on the way everything is going to get even easier. I've a CCNA from about 20 years ago and had a half day set aside to setup the Google Wifi when I got it, the thought of configuring these devices to talk to each other, routing tables, setting up the different SSIDs, etc. etc, I'd it all done in less than half an hour and it all just works.

I always liken it to going to a carpenters house, everything might be custom made but they could have gotten it for half the price off the shelf somewhere, the thought of having to spend an evening tweaking a setup now sounds kind of enjoyable but really I'm happy that everything just works.

Clareman

RedXIV wrote: »

I had to look up what an ethernet backhaul was, but this was definitely my plan. I want to wire up as much as I can as in our current house we've about 20 things connecting to the wifi and we don't have anything like smart lights, blinds, cameras etc so in order to cut down on the wifi usage where I expect it'll be congested quick enough, and will have to supplement anything I forget

I just had a quick look there and I've 54 devices connected to my WiFi and never had a problem (touch wood), the mesh systems cover all this so well.

RedXIV wrote: »

I've a house with extension leads all over it so plugs every few feet is a realistic probability not sure what mains inside a wardrobe would do though? on top of cabinets makes sense for lights, access points maybe but I'm not sure what I'm missing here?

Off the top of my head I can think of the top of cabinets for lights and cameras, inside wardrobes for hiding stuff. If you have a cabling backend you can use the network cables for stuff like TV signals, think putting your sky box in the central location and then sharing the signal out over the network cabling, stuff like this , the other thing about having the cable ran during the build is that you'll have all the trunking in place so if you ever want to change the cables for any reason it's just a cable pull.

ted1

RedXIV wrote: »

not sure what mains inside a wardrobe would do though? on top of cabinets makes sense for lights, access points maybe but I'm not sure what I'm missing here?

Handy for keeping hair dryers plugged in, Charging tablets, etc so they are out of sight, internal lighting. out of sight wireless Access Points

eusap

One reason to keep a networking switch in the attic is for cooling, if you keep it in the office the Fan (if fitted) will need to run to cool and the whine of it will annoy you after a while, also if you add a NAS box or media server it will also add to the "Noise" so best to centralise in the attic or under stairs etc... also keeps it accessible for ISP to install internet etc....

kenmc

Run mains and network to some hidden places, under stairs, utility room etc, can put WiFi ap here so it's out of sight. Also power under the stairs handy for charging a cordless vacuum out of the way

kenmc

eusap wrote: »

One reason to keep a networking switch in the attic is for cooling, if you keep it in the office the Fan (if fitted) will need to run to cool and the whine of it will annoy you after a while, also if you add a NAS box or media server it will also add to the "Noise" so best to centralise in the attic or under stairs etc... also keeps it accessible for ISP to install internet etc....

New build likely to have a warm roof attic, so the attic is inside the thermal envelope of the house, not much to be gained there in terms of cooling. Also if installing mhrv the sound of pc fans will be masked a bit

bk

Rule number 1 is always run as many Ethernet cables as you can when building new or renovating. You won’t regret it.

Wireless is getting better, but it will never beat the speed and more importantly reliability of a good wired network.

Even if you use wireless mesh, each access point connected by Ethernet backhaul helps it to work more reliably and if you can connect any fixed devices (smart TV’s, game consoles, desktop pc’s) directly to the Ethernet network, that helps take the strain off the WiFi network.

RedXIV

Sorry for not getting back to this sooner, been a bit hectic over xmas.

In the end I told the boss to just get a voucher for me and then she picked me up this too:



I'm now fighting over planning permission stuff so this will take a slight step back BUT I also got a guide to help me to learn how to crimp wires as I can imagine that being handy for this sort of hobby