Is anyone paying tax?

moycullen14

Over the last 12 months, I've had a fair bit of work done on the house involving various trades: plumber, carpenter, painter, etc.

Each and every one insisted on being paid in cash. no invoice, nothing. whatever about the morality of it, the annual income tax returns for these people must make interesting reading. How much is actually being declared for tax? Or is it something else that I'm missing.

This isn't a rant or begrudgery, I'm just intrigued about how widespread it is.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Yeah it’s rampant, if you insist on a VAT receipt you can add 30% onto your bill. No one wants to pay more so it’s a catch 22.

Effects

What else can you expect when people like you want it done cheaper than it actually costs?

Pauliedragon

I know one neighbour who's a stickler for rules who refuses to pay trades people in cash. It's cheque or bank transfer.

Hoboo

When I'm asked for cash I always insist on 20% off if they don't want to give a receipt. No one doesn't want to get paid, so it's a catch 22.

NIMAN

I always wondered how big this grey economy is?

Must be large percentage. Again if all these folk and all the huge companies paid their tax properly then how much better would our schools, hospitals, roads, etc be?

Idbatterim

Giving it to working people or for the wasters in government to squander on themselves or wasters, tough choice... I pay everything cash, tips , mechanics hairdressers etc, trades people etc...

Allinall

Idbatterim wrote: »

Giving it go working people or for the wasters in government to squander on themselves or wasters, tough choice... I pay everything cash, tips , mechanics hairdressers etc, trades people etc...

Knowingly facilitating tax evasion is as bad as tax evasion itself.

screamer

Cash work is not just about tax avoidance. You’d be shocked to know the number of people who get in trades to do something and think it’s fine to haggle with them over the price at the end cause they spent too much on something during the work, or worse, never pay them. It’s nigh on impossible to get paid, the trades people have no recourse and can’t enter the property and remove work. Cheques take time to clear, and people won’t pay upfront, it’s a catch 22.

sbsquarepants

Fúck the moralising - if i can get the work done cheaper for cash, i'm fine with that!

Wildly Boaring

screamer wrote: »

Cash work is not just about tax avoidance. You’d be shocked to know the number of people who get in trades to do something and think it’s fine to haggle with them over the price at the end cause they spent too much on something during the work, or worse, never pay them. It’s nigh on impossible to get paid, the trades people have no recourse and can’t enter the property and remove work. Cheques take time to clear, and people won’t pay upfront, it’s a catch 22.

Exactly
A lot of trades insist on cash to protect themselves from the dicks who won't pay them.
Invoicing and giving 30 days to pay or a cheque or a bank transfer all open to abuse.
The amount of people and companies who don't pay their bills is astounding.

McGinniesta

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Yeah it’s rampant, if you insist on a VAT receipt you can add 30% onto your bill. No one wants to pay more so it’s a catch 22.

Why would you insist on the VAT receipt unless you could claim it back?

Alternatively, the guy who did the work would put the VAT through the books and it would go towards a possible vat refund for them.

stoneill

Yes, I'm paying loads of tax.

Pataman

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Fúck the moralising - if i can get the work done cheaper for cash, i'm fine with that!

You are right, sure who needs hospitals, transport, community health, street lighting etc

Ubbquittious

Pataman wrote: »

You are right, sure who needs hospitals, transport, community health, street lighting etc

A lot of street lighting is only light pollution and can be done away with

screamer

Just to add, there are loads of cash businesses out there and you think they’re all accounting for every penny? Take aways, barbers and hairdressers, florists, corner shops, even GPs, hell I have to ask for a vat receipt for diesel. There’s plenty of tax evasion going on, but they’re gonna be caught out now cause this year, everyone paying by card, would be very easy for revenue to compare month on month annually, to see the figures from 19 v 20. I expect a lot of such places will be shut down or sold off before revenue and welfare catch up with them looking for audits and Covid supplements to be repaid.

ElJeffe

Idbatterim wrote: »

Giving it go working people or for the wasters in government to squander on themselves or wasters, tough choice... I pay everything cash, tips , mechanics hairdressers etc, trades people etc...

You've some neck. Every second thread on here you are giving out about dole spongers, welfare cheats etc.. and yet you are fine with tax evasion.

jimd2

Idbatterim wrote: »

Giving it go working people or for the wasters in government to squander on themselves or wasters, tough choice... I pay everything cash, tips , mechanics hairdressers etc, trades people etc...

Easy soundbite but not correct.

In my opinion the state has done a pretty good job keeping the pandemic mostly at bay. The schools are back and there has not been a major spike. Our state coffers are paying for all those people on the pandemic payments, the nurses, doctors, teachers, gardai as well as previous unemployment and social welfare commitments.

So to say that our taxes are wasted is incorrect. Of course the pay rises for top civil servants, judges etc is maddening but the vast majority of outlay is to the list above.

Sky King

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Fúck the moralising - if i can get the work done cheaper for cash, i'm fine with that!

Agreed. It is not the customers responsibility to ensure someone else pays their taxes correctly. if I were to pay a tradesman cash I would assume that they are declaring the income and paying the appropriate taxes.:)

monkeynuz

Pauliedragon wrote: »

I know one neighbour who's a stickler for rules who refuses to pay trades people in cash. It's cheque or bank transfer.

We would be the same, always pay by cheque as we don’t keep large sums of cash in the house and always ask for a receipt, we always pay the extra 23%.

Some may say we’re mad to do it but we like everything above board.

My father dealt with a tradesman in France some years ago who was going around charging everyone vat and invoicing them, it then turned out he wasn’t passing the vat on to the tax man, the officials went around interviewing previous customers to see if they were complicit in the fraud and to build a better case against the tradesman.

sbsquarepants

Pataman wrote: »

You are right, sure who needs hospitals, transport, community health, street lighting etc

You know what else i need? Food, clothes, heating and so on. I pay enough tax as it is, it's not my responsibility to ensure every plumber and builder does so too.

If i can get the work done more cheaply, and keep more of my already taxed wages for my own use and my families use i am quite happy to do so.

Whatever i spend that money on will no doubt be taxed again taxed anyway!

moycullen14

What the revenue do is just scare people into compliance.

Take grinds, for example, pick a teacher, any teacher, and hammer them for non tax payment on grind money. Shouldn't be too hard to find one.

Make a big song and dance about it in the media. Teacher earned 5K per year for the last 15 years on grinds, interest, tax and penalties, say 200K.

Wouldn't be long getting everyone in line :-)

Anyone with any experience of the revenue knows they are the most efficient branch of the CS (the bar is fairly low). Surprised they haven't gone down this road

Ash.J.Williams

moycullen14 wrote: »

Over the last 12 months, I've had a fair bit of work done on the house involving various trades: plumber, carpenter, painter, etc.

Each and every one insisted on being paid in cash. no invoice, nothing. whatever about the morality of it, the annual income tax returns for these people must make interesting reading. How much is actually being declared for tax? Or is it something else that I'm missing.

This isn't a rant or begrudgery, I'm just intrigued about how widespread it is.

i hired a solicitor for a motoring summons, and when she saw the cash in my wallet she said i'd hardly want to pay VAT on it

Ash.J.Williams

Idbatterim wrote: »

Giving it go working people or for the wasters in government to squander on themselves or wasters, tough choice... I pay everything cash, tips , mechanics hairdressers etc, trades people etc...

hospitals education roads etc

Bill Ponderosa

Like taxi drivers they only declare the bare minimum, like 14k or whatever the amount to get away with paying little or no tax is.

Foolish not to do it when you're able to get away with it, huge money to be made.

McGinniesta

https://giphy.com/gifs/rtesocial-radio1-rte-rteireland-mCyiyc2xCfMFLlDQ3p

NIMAN

Backfired on a lot of folk when the pandemic hit.

I remember listening to a guy moaning on RTE radio about how the payment he was getting when out of work at the 1st lockdown wasnt enough, but it was clear he obviously wasn't declaring his real income to Revenue.

Purple Mountain

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Fúck the moralising - if i can get the work done cheaper for cash, i'm fine with that!

But then you have mo proof that X did Y work for you and if the boiler leaks or the pipe bursts, how are you going to prove who messed up the work?

thebourke

if everybody paid the proper level of tax in this country...maybe we could have money for the things we need...like proper infrastructure..hospitals.. water supply...flooding defences...environment.etc..etc....

GarIT

Purple Mountain wrote: »

But then you have mo proof that X did Y work for you and if the boiler leaks or the pipe bursts, how are you going to prove who messed up the work?

You let them know you'll be having a chat with revenue if they don't fix the work.

GarIT

thebourke wrote: »

if everybody paid the proper level of tax in this country...maybe we could have money for the things we need...like proper infrastructure..hospitals.. water supply...flooding defences...environment.etc..etc....

This is why I'm in favour of doing away with cash. But don't trust the banks to manage everything we need a current account offered by the gov with no fees and no extras either.

While everyone else is doing it I'm not going to be a fool and be the only one following the rules.

monkeynuz

I’ve had people ask me in the past if they can pay cash, and my answer is always “yes of course you can although I’m just as happy with a cheque as it all goes through the books” that soon stops them thinking they can get a “discount for cash” my expenses are the same whether I declare the money or not so why not just be honest.

ELM327

Effective tax rate as a paye worker is 33% for me. If I hire a business to do work then you can be damn sure it's going to be above board. I pay too much tax to risk dodgy dealings. I've been audited by the revenue before and it's a painful process. They are the only part of the PS that actually do their job well.

Giving tips etc in cash is another thing. Generally if you tip someone they are on a lower/low skilled wage (like a bar server, taxi driver or barber etc) and they need the money.

Stone Deaf 4evr

I think you just have to accept that there is always some element of cash / bartering going on in all facets business,

I've done work for friends relative to my profession, but I'll be able to call on them when I need their expertise on something else.

The one warning I would give - small jobs and small sums are fine, but paying for large trades in cash is a recipe for trouble, as you'll have no paper trail / comeback if anything goes wrong.

ELM327

^ theres a difference between "barter" between friends and cooking the books

gary550

thebourke wrote: »

if everybody paid the proper level of tax in this country...maybe we could have money for the thingswe need...like proper infrastructure..hospitals...etc..etc....

or maybe the bloated inefficiencies we are famous for just get more bloated, we really have a shocking track record for use of public funds and said abuse of public funds

I'd be much quicker to support a purge on the absolute do nothing morons that are a plenty in the public service than a purge on tradesmen who are actually doing something for a living and scrape a few pound off tax free for themselves.

Pawwed Rig

thebourke wrote: »

if everybody paid the proper level of tax in this country...maybe we could have money for the things we need...like proper infrastructure..hospitals.. water supply...flooding defences...environment.etc..etc....

We would just have a more bloated public sector with little in the way of increases in services.

All the government is good for is spending money. Value for money doesn't seem to enter the thought processes

Ash.J.Williams

if a deliveroo driver missed a vat payment they'd have the sherrif kicking in the door within months

Ash.J.Williams

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

We would just have a more bloated public sector with little in the way of increases in services.

All the government is good for is spending money. Value for money doesn't seem to enter the thought processes

are you an actual moderator?

Pawwed Rig

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

are you an actual moderator?

Yes why?

Nermal

thebourke wrote: »

if everybody paid the proper level of tax in this country...maybe we could have money for the things we need...like proper infrastructure..hospitals.. water supply...flooding defences...environment.etc..etc....

It would be wasted to the the same proportion as it is now. There will always be justifications for spending more. It's up to us to starve the beast, otherwise there is no incentive for it to be efficient.

Pawwed Rig

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

if a deliveroo driver missed a vat payment they'd have the sherrif kicking in the door within months

It would be unlikely that a deliveroo driver would need to be registered for VAT unless they were earning above €37,500.

RandRuns

Although some tradespeople insist on cash because of a tax dodge, that's not the only reason.
Non-payment of tradespeople is rife in Ireland, both on the construction side, where subbies always get stiffed if the margins are tight (there are a couple of Tier 1 and Tier 2 contractors that are notorious for deliberately pricing in non-payment of a subbie or two in order to keep a tender low), and on the private side. Tradespeople can't do much to stop it on the construction side, other than avoiding the more notorious non-payers, but on the private work side, they will often insist on cash, as, in the words of a sparky I know "cash can't bounce".
A lot of tradespeople have learned the hard way that, on domestic work, if you are one of the later tradespeople to get paid (electrician, plumber, painter etc.) that the kitty can be nearly dry, and insisting on cash reduces the chances of not getting paid.

Mickey_James

I say fair play to them.

I would be the same. I'm fed up with the systems in this country.

I pay PAYE for a decade and house prices are a joke yet there's people getting free houses they don't deserve and they've never worked a day in their lives.

I was watching supergarden this year, the estate was a social housing development. One of the people was crippled in a wheelchair, fair enough, wouldn't mind her!

Then there was a young, health stay at home mother of 2 kids. Not working! And then I was on facebook and I saw her profile and she was on 2 week tour of Ireland for her staycation!

Meanwhile I wouldn't afford that. And that's where my tax is going? **** off.

She gets a free house for life, while I might get the luxury of one day getting into debt up to my tits for 30 years for the privelidge of a 2nd hand matchbox!

Stone Deaf 4evr

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

We would just have a more bloated public sector with little in the way of increases in services.

All the government is good for is spending money. Value for money doesn't seem to enter the thought processes

This is an actual fact.

my wife works for a public sector

without giving too many specifics, they were quoted 10K for a small fitted kitchen in a canteen that could easily have been done for 2K , and 800 euros to move 2 couches from one building to another - a job I'd have done for 100 in my spare time if asked.

plus you've oceans of hoop jumping involving tendering processes, approved suppliers, etc etc, that serve nothing more than to keep the work contained to an old boys network of sorts.

PARlance

McGinniesta wrote: »

Why would you insist on the VAT receipt unless you could claim it back?

Alternatively, the guy who did the work would put the VAT through the books and it would go towards a possible vat refund for them.

There are many possible uses for receipts outside of just claiming vat back.

The person providing the goods or services isn't going to get a refund for that vat. They have to pay it over to the Revenue. If they don't record it then they don't have to pay it over (they could still be claiming a Vat refund, they have more of a refund if they don't declare the invoice in question).

ELM327

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

This is an actual fact.

my wife works for a public sector

without giving too many specifics, they were quoted 10K for a small fitted kitchen in a canteen that could easily have been done for 2K , and 800 euros to move 2 couches from one building to another - a job I'd have done for 100 in my spare time if asked.

plus you've oceans of hoop jumping involving tendering processes, approved suppliers, etc etc, that serve nothing more than to keep the work contained to an old boys network of sorts.

This happens in the private sector too though. I've worked in both.

relax carry on

moycullen14 wrote: »

What the revenue do is just scare people into compliance.

Take grinds, for example, pick a teacher, any teacher, and hammer them for non tax payment on grind money. Shouldn't be too hard to find one.

Make a big song and dance about it in the media. Teacher earned 5K per year for the last 15 years on grinds, interest, tax and penalties, say 200K.

Wouldn't be long getting everyone in line :-)

Anyone with any experience of the revenue knows they are the most efficient branch of the CS (the bar is fairly low). Surprised they haven't gone down this road

Its because Revenue are bound by rules. Tax evaders aren't.

GarIT

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

This is an actual fact.

my wife works for a public sector

without giving too many specifics, they were quoted 10K for a small fitted kitchen in a canteen that could easily have been done for 2K , and 800 euros to move 2 couches from one building to another - a job I'd have done for 100 in my spare time if asked.

plus you've oceans of hoop jumping involving tendering processes, approved suppliers, etc etc, that serve nothing more than to keep the work contained to an old boys network of sorts.

The opposite in fact. The whole tendering process exists to stop people giving jobs to their mates which the civil service was often accused of.

NIMAN

We all know stories about how much is spent doing gov jobs, but as said it happens in the private sector exactly the same.

I work for a multinational and the money they spend is crazy too.

They have procedures and preferred sellers for items, they don't go out to Argos or Amazon to buy their tech. Same for the PS here.

We all know you'd move a couch for 100 for them, but that's not how the world works.

Padre_Pio

Pataman wrote: »

You are right, sure who needs hospitals, transport, community health, street lighting etc

When has tax ever been ringfenced for things like this.

It all goes in a big leaky trough. The govt have no problem wasting billions on stupid sh*te.

That 2 million euro printer they bought? The one they needed to knock walls in Dail Eireann for? Still hasn't been used, cause they haven't hired people to run it.

So the supposed money it was meant to save still isn't being saved. They just have a pile of junk sitting there, depreciating, probably getting monthly services for no reason.

NIMAN wrote: »

We all know stories about how much is spent doing gov jobs, but as said it happens in the private sector exactly the same.

I'll agree with that, but the checks and balances are usually much stricter.
People are more likely to be fired, demoted, denied bonuses and promotions if they f*ck up.