COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 2 [Mod Warning - Post #1]

Micky 32

dominatinMC wrote: »

I accept that. What I do not accept/understand, however, is this narrative being perpetrated by some that we will need restrictions for ever. Completely disingenuous and, one could argue, manipulate in order to elicit a response.

They have probably watched Demolition Man too many times like when they put on the virtual headset for “sex” to prevent any human contact.

Beasty

Threads merged

Apogee

https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1347917916222742530

Goldengirl

dominatinMC wrote: »

I accept that. What I do not accept/understand, however, is this narrative being perpetrated by some that we will need restrictions for ever. Completely disingenuous and, one could argue, manipulate in order to elicit a response.

I haven't seen that on any of the threads, but the some threads move so fast I can't catchup!

There will be lower level of restrictions imo until herd immunity, but would think it would be just up to those unvaccinated to mind themselves after that .

When immunity drops / if , then outbreaks will occur , and time to revaccinate the population then .
I doubt there will be a national checking of antibody levels, but they might do a sampling of some of the population from time to time to see how the vaccine is lasting longterm .

Would be great if it went to 5 to 10 years like pneumonia vaccine.

I think this is all good news really

Apogee

Undertandably, focus has shifted from testing to vaccines, but there has been a considerable ramping up of testing:

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/pages/hospitals-icu--testing

https://twitter.com/IrishAirCorps/status/1347897777213337600

micks_address

The testing system in fairness seems first rate. My experience was 6 hours from gp referral to test and 30 hours from test to result (negative) Over a weekend can’t complain about that.

jcon1913

astrofool wrote: »

The goal is to vaccinate all staff at the hospital as quickly as possible, the goal is not to vaccinate all staff at the hospital by order of age, to do the second, you compromise the first, with the first, the vaccine immunity of everyone who works in the hospital kicks in as soon as possible, you want to slow that down for some reason. I would also doubt they'll be sticking strictly to alphabetical order (oh you're here Walter, but Ben hasn't arrived yet, lets get you done while I'm waiting for Ben).

But look, in to be fair, please outline the order we should be vaccinating in, and include all the subgroups within those groups (immuno-compromised, age(including how many separate groupings of age), been infected previously, estimated exposure to others) and create your own list, and do some logistics on getting those groups in at the correct time and vaccinated before moving onto the next group (sorry, you're 59, and we have an outstanding 61 year old to vaccinate first). Come up with a comprehensive plan for that, and we can then debate your comprehensive plan, rather than hand wringing.

If you’re health worker you get the vaccine before the general population- I don’t know what the bickering is about from people who work in the health who feel they should be more prioritised than others. Calm down you’ll be seen to in the next few days- long before the general population so quit your whinging

ShineOn7

Covid-19: IT problems cause delays for vaccinations of GPs

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40203755.html

Vaccination for GPs will now open on Monday, a leading Cork GP involved with the roll-out has confirmed as glitches in the IT registration system have caused delays.


The IT system, built by a partnership between IBM, Salesforce and the HSE, has already proved controversial.


Some nursing homes have said for example saying they are using Excel sheets to record vaccine data currently.

ShineOn7

The Economist has picked up the great treatment news

Another life-saving treatment is found for covid-19

Two drugs for arthritis prove strikingly effective

https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/01/07/another-life-saving-treatment-is-found-for-covid-19

lucernarian

Marhay70 wrote: »

What about the 75 year old couple with underlying conditions living around the corner from this nursing home and coccooning for the past year. Do they drive past their door?
As far as I'm concerned, the plan was made, it took convening an expert panel to get to that stage , it should be adhered to. There will always be interest groups and special cases but once you start deviating you leave the system open to chaos.

The gas thing is that I've asked for two points: one of them is that the originally agreed plan be followed. Instead I was attacked by some random posters on boards for questioning why there was a change to the expert-written and cabinet-approved plan, as though I wanted it to be slowed down! Happy to discuss the pros and cons of plans but I'm not gonna take strawmen from people who mightn't even have any background in the field.

lucernarian

ShineOn7 wrote: »

It would still be done right if it took two days to figure out a proper plan

You're dead right and it's the sort of thing that could have been done well in advance of this week. The plan is already highly phased as it is.

j@utis

Apogee wrote: »

Undertandably, focus has shifted from testing to vaccines, but there has been a considerable ramping up of testing ...

Oh, brilliant! More testing = more cases, isn't it?

Wolf359f

A quick question for people who know more details about the Pfizer vaccine. The vaccine arrives frozen in 5 dose vials but needs to be defrosted and diluted? That's my understanding. So if it's diluted with say saline, where does the extra 6th dose come from? Excess saline or excess of what ever solution is in the vial prior to being defrosted?

lucernarian

Apogee wrote: »

Undertandably, focus has shifted from testing to vaccines, but there has been a considerable ramping up of testing:

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/pages/hospitals-icu--testing

https://twitter.com/IrishAirCorps/status/1347897777213337600

great job done in dealing with the sudden backlog of tests that were required, I had done some maths with the parameters given by the govt and it shouldn't have been possible to consistently get >2000 cases per day diagnosed with positivity rates above 10% without some big changes. We can possibly claim the case numbers reported now as realistic, in stark comparison to March 2020. Good to see this important work was given such all round effort by the state.

Big caveat Is in stopping contact tests but there is less need per se to test those now when community transmission is so prevalent.

Miike

Wolf359f wrote: »

A quick question for people who know more details about the Pfizer vaccine. The vaccine arrives frozen in 5 dose vials but needs to be defrosted and diluted? That's my understanding. So if it's diluted with say saline, where does the extra 6th dose come from? Excess saline or excess of what ever solution is in the vial prior to being defrosted?

The Pfzier Biontech vaccine ships as 0.45mL per vial, frozen. It is to to be diluted with 1.8mL 0.9% Sodium Chloride solution to be prepared for injection. The dose administered is 0.3mL per vaccination. When the vials are filled, they are filled with enough solution for 6 vaccinations but marked as 5 doses to account for needle and syringe dead-space (where deadspace is wastage). The new EMA authorization calls for use of a specific type of needle and syringe which has much lower deadspace, thus allowing for more vaccines doses from the one vial (6 instead of 5)

Wolf359f

timsey tiger wrote: »

...and spend two days working out the schedule.

And then if someone is 64 before the date and turns 65 after it, what happens, they fall through the cracks?
Or slap all their staff numbers into a random generator to get the order, but hope nobody's was enter incorrectly?
Or just print the staff roster in alphabet order and get to work, saving all that hassle above.
I know the rollout would face criticism, but come on, they are arguing about the order now? Go by age but then it's the oldest and not just 65+ because the 68 year old should get it before the 67 year old.

Wolf359f

Miike wrote: »

The Pfzier Biontech vaccine ships as 0.45mL per vial, frozen. It is to to be diluted with 1.8mL 0.9% Sodium Chloride solution to be prepared for injection. The dose administered is 0.3mL per vaccination. The new EMA authorization (to allow for 6 doses). When the vials are filled they are filled with enough solution for 6 vaccinations but marked as 5 doses to account for needle and syringe dead-space (where deadspace is wastage). The new EMA authorization calls for use of a specific type of needle and syringe which has much lower deadspace, thus allowing for more vaccines doses from the one vial.

Thanks for that! Really good info.
I assumed some vials contained a little more than others, which is why I was confused about the dilution by a 3rd party as the ratio would be wrong.

lbj666

Miike wrote: »

The Pfzier Biontech vaccine ships as 0.45mL per vial, frozen. It is to to be diluted with 1.8mL 0.9% Sodium Chloride solution to be prepared for injection. The dose administered is 0.3mL per vaccination. When the vials are filled, they are filled with enough solution for 6 vaccinations but marked as 5 doses to account for needle and syringe dead-space (where deadspace is wastage). The new EMA authorization calls for use of a specific type of needle and syringe which has much lower deadspace, thus allowing for more vaccines doses from the one vial (5 instead of 6)

Any idea how a 7th dose was got in some cases as mentioned in the examiner article a few posts back?

Water2021

lbj666 wrote: »

Any idea how a 7th dose was got in some cases as mentioned in the examiner article a few posts back?

What's the story with doses anyway

Is it one size fits all?

50kg woman gets same dose as 100kg man?

How does that work?

Miike

lbj666 wrote: »

Any idea how a 7th dose was got in some cases as mentioned in the examiner article a few posts back?

If you use ultra-low deadspace syringes and needles it's possible (theoretically, as I don't have the data to hand for dead space volumes but I can have it tomorrow, if it's important).

The vaccine ships as 0.45mL + 1.8 mL dilution: Total in vial is now 2.25mL. Each dose requires 0.3mL.

(0.45 + 1.8) / 0.3 = 7.5 doses if there was ZERO wastage (impossible). If the use of ultra-low deadspace devices can perform to the point where there is only .15mL total waste then in theory, you could get 7 from a single vial?

This is purely a paper exercise as I do not have sufficient data to hand and cite in order to back up the claims in the article you mentioned.

Miike

Water2021 wrote: »

What's the story with doses anyway

Is it one size fits all?

50kg woman gets same dose as 100kg man?

How does that work?

Because that dose is enough for the body to start producing the protein that the immune system can recognise as foreign and learn to mount an attack against, regardless of your weight.

lbj666

Miike wrote: »

If you use ultra-low deadspace syringes and needles it's possible (theoretically, as I don't have the data to hand for dead space volumes but I can have it tomorrow, if it's important).

The vaccine ships as 0.45mL + 1.8 mL dilution: Total in vial is now 2.25mL. Each dose requires 0.3mL.

(0.45 + 1.8) / 0.3 = 7.5 doses if there was ZERO wastage (impossible). If the use of ultra-low deadspace devices can perform to the point where there is only .15mL total waste then in theory, you could get 7 from a single vial?

This is purely a paper exercise as I do not have sufficient data to hand to back up the claims in the article you mentioned.

Is possible the vials aren't bang on 2.25ml also, meaning there could be more, it's a tiny volume to get right

Wolf359f

lbj666 wrote: »

Is possible the vials aren't bang on 2.25ml also, meaning there could be more, it's a tiny volume to get right

You can also argue the 0.3ml dose given in the syringe is not bang on either.
I think that why there's excess in the vial.
Not to mention the hold the syringe upright and squeeze to get out the air... although that's probably just in the movies and with untrained junkies.
Plus the fact it's injected into muscle and not a vain and also the vials could be airtight/in a vacuum?

Miike

lbj666 wrote: »

Is possible the vials aren't bang on 2.25ml also, meaning there could be more, it's a tiny volume to get right

I don't think vials with less or more than the .45mL would pass autoQA at the manufacturing plant and getting 1.8mL drawn into a syringe in exact amounts if very easy as is getting 0.3mL back out. It all comes down to the type of syringe you use.

Example to try explain: U100 insulin is 100 units per millilitre, insulin needles are designed in a fashion so that you can very precisely draw up 5, 10, 14, 15, 17, 20, 25 UNITS of insulin at a time (effectively 0.01mL accuracy).

TheChizler

Miike wrote: »

Because that dose is enough for the body to start producing the protein that the immune system can recognise as foreign and learn to mount an attack against, regardless of your weight.

I'm guessing this is the quantify because it's what was tested, rather than it being absolutely optimised, might be possible to use less and get similar efficacy but that would be going off label.

timsey tiger

ShineOn7 wrote: »

It would still be done right if it took two days to figure out a proper plan

or you could spend the two days vaccinating and be done with it.

The right way is he quickest way. There are more risk factors than just age, why just stop at age?


Remember that when you took age details for pension purposes it was not for vaccination order, So to do this age order bs you would need explicit permission from each staff member or recollect dates of birth.

Unless of course you think it is fine to disregard the law when it suits you.

is_that_so

ShineOn7 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40203755.html

Getting a new IT system fully up and running can take quite a bit of time. Some of the time it's down to users not specifying exactly what they needed. It'll be ironed out. Excel does the trick as a stop gap anyway - 55 columns or so and there are unlikely to be huge numbers of records.

Donald Trump

On testing procedures, I read they are not testing asymptomatic close contacts.

Isolation is simple for those who test positive. What about the case of multiple on-going contacts?

4 people live in a house. Joe tests positive on Mon. Mary says she has symptoms to get an immediate test on Tue and is negative. Paddy and Anne have no symptoms and don't get tested.

Surely there is a non-trivial chance that one of the three is still infectious 2-3 weeks later?

Called my Dr yesterday, described symptoms, got a text within the hour with test appointment for a few hours later.

Got tested at city west yesterday, no cars before or after me. Rolled straight in. Every single person I dealt with was so sound, everyone.

Test is a tiny bit uncomfortable (not painful) for a couple of seconds.

Got my negative result 18 hours later.

The whole system worked perfectly, really impressed

If you are in any doubt, call your Dr, let them make the decision and get the ball rolling. Better to know

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

On testing procedures, I read they are not testing asymptomatic close contacts.

Isolation is simple for those who test positive. What about the case of multiple on-going contacts?

4 people live in a house. Joe tests positive on Mon. Mary says she has symptoms to get an immediate test on Tue and is negative. Paddy and Anne have no symptoms and don't get tested.

Surely there is a non-trivial chance that one of the three is still infectious 2-3 weeks later?

That’s why all need to isolate for 2 weeks