COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 2 [Mod Warning - Post #1]

seamus

odyssey06 wrote: »

So they are now effectively in the higher priority grouping as they have to get access to the second dose in the requisite time period, and the site will need extra vaccine doses to ensure it has enough to cover all such people - unless they are going to rely on 'spares' being also available for the second dose, which is unlikely.

Why is it unlikely?

The site will get exactly the same allocation they got the first time; this will cover everyone who is due a second dose. It's not like a few extra vials were thrown in the bottom of the bag. They got an exact amount, and will get that again next time.

Anyone who missed the first dose will be included in some other mop-up process.

is_that_so

josip wrote: »

I think there are 30,000 in Group 1 and 95,000 in Group 2?
If 70,000 of Group 2 have already been vaccinated doesn't that mean that vaccination of Group 3 needs to start happening immediately or there will be decrease in the weekly administration rate?

We have received 155,000 doses already and we will be minimising buffering, so the stock is there, albeit of the super cool Pfizer/BioNTech.

So will some over 70s be able to get vaccinated with Pfizer/BioNTech in the weeks that we're waiting for Pfizer/BioNTech?

There's the second shot starting the next week! Maybe some from mid-February if we are really lucky, but more likely to be the end of the month.

Amirani

Russman wrote: »

What would you suggest they do if they have 11 spare doses at the end of a vaccination session ?
I'd suggest its easier to select 11 local GPs rather than go into a nursing home and pick the first 11 patients or staff, no ?
Plus, I'd assume hospitals and nursing homes are being vaccinated by different teams, you couldn't have a hospital vaccination team disrupting a nursing home team's plan, it'd lead to chaos.
Honestly I think you're focusing on the minutae of it all. Some sectors will be ahead of others based purely on logistics, it shouldn't be a case of we all go as fast as the slowest IMO.

Nursing homes are due to be finished within a week anyway. All of them have been scheduled.

Amirani

https://twitter.com/redouad/status/1349748336404869123

seamus

So if there are 125,000 in the first two groups, 77,000 done and 6,000 being completed daily, then the first two groups should be practically done by this day next week. I had gotten 100,000 as a number earlier in the thread.

Which means we would expect group 3 to start getting notified about their appointments imminently, with the 85+ group getting done late next week.

I would hope GPs are being briefed about this in the next 48 hours.

Russman

seamus wrote: »

So if there are 125,000 in the first two groups, 77,000 done and 6,000 being completed daily, then the first two groups should be practically done by this day next week. I had gotten 100,000 as a number earlier in the thread.

Which means we would expect group 3 to start getting notified about their appointments imminently, with the 85+ group getting done late next week.

I would hope GPs are being briefed about this in the next 48 hours.

Will they not have to do them all again then for the second dose, once they finish them next week ?

oharach7

Amirani wrote: »

Very good news. I was a sceptic based on a poor experience of the HSE in Louth just prior to coronavirus.

NI has now administered 121,711 vaccines (approx 6.5 per 100 population) - pulling further ahead of the other UK nations. Good news both sides of the border.

Interestingly the London rollout is the slowest in any UK region - perhaps because of the pressure the health service is under there with active coronavirus cases.

is_that_so

Amirani wrote: »

Nursing homes are due to be finished within a week anyway. All of them have been scheduled.

I think they will be doing them weekly for a few weeks.

ACitizenErased

Amirani wrote: »

https://twitter.com/redouad/status/1349748336404869123

But but but the HSE????? but but

josip

Russman wrote: »

Will they not have to do them all again then for the second dose, once they finish them next week ?

Yes, but both their capacity to administer, and the vaccine supply, has increased since the first dose was administered a few weeks ago.
So the vaccine rollout will not be operating at maximum potential, if they wait to vaccinate Group 3.

Newuser2

Stark wrote: »

Yeah mid February for first delivery assuming approval in late January. No rush like

Ya why bother checking anything

Just jab us with whatever they have

lucernarian

Russman wrote: »

What would you suggest they do if they have 11 spare doses at the end of a vaccination session ?
I'd suggest its easier to select 11 local GPs rather than go into a nursing home and pick the first 11 patients or staff, no ?
Plus, I'd assume hospitals and nursing homes are being vaccinated by different teams, you couldn't have a hospital vaccination team disrupting a nursing home team's plan, it'd lead to chaos.
Honestly I think you're focusing on the minutae of it all. Some sectors will be ahead of others based purely on logistics, it shouldn't be a case of we all go as fast as the slowest IMO.

Ah really now, this isn't a GPs vs nursing home staff playoff match, and I never implied anything of the sort. Staff who are not in frontline roles are being vaccinated ahead of frontline staff in the community. I would love to praise and commend the hospital/team who decided to call up local doctors to get their dose as this makes sense from a scientific, moral and social perspective. My problem, is the litany of reports I am hearing and reading where people in an entirely different priority and rollout are being selected ahead of those in the very highest priority.

And that this is happening in such a vague and unaccountable way. The fact the govt described the plan as a living document should not be used as an excuse for teams to vaccinate whoever they decide in the moment, this is completely losing perspective of the need for good planning and an effective rollout where the most exposed and most at risk are vaccinated lest this third wave kill even more people unnecessarily.

I understand this is almost flogging a dead horse by now, it's much harder to keep calm about these issues when they're being misrepresented repeatedly by other posters. Thanks for your time.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

So if there are 125,000 in the first two groups, 77,000 done and 6,000 being completed daily, then the first two groups should be practically done by this day next week. I had gotten 100,000 as a number earlier in the thread.

Which means we would expect group 3 to start getting notified about their appointments imminently, with the 85+ group getting done late next week.

I would hope GPs are being briefed about this in the next 48 hours.

Group 4 are also being done at the moment so it's 77,000 from groups 1, 2 & 4.

lucernarian

ACitizenErased wrote: »

But but but the HSE????? but but

The breakdown of the frontline numbers there is false if they are also vaccinating non-frontline staff who are further down the priority list. The total population of nursing homes in Ireland is what, 30,000? We haven't reached 25% coverage there yet if that's so. Not sure how the shortfall can be made up by the govt's prediction of the end of this week.

is_that_so

For comparison the NI vaccination totals.

https://twitter.com/healthdpt/status/1349745971803136002

ACitizenErased

lucernarian wrote: »

The breakdown of the frontline numbers there is false if they are also vaccinating non-frontline staff who are further down the priority list. The total population of nursing homes in Ireland is what, 30,000? We haven't reached 25% coverage there yet if that's so. Not sure how the shortfall can be made up by the govt's prediction of the end of this week.

Sooo we're ahead of schedule vaccinating group 4?

lucernarian

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Sooo we're ahead of schedule vaccinating group 4?

While priority 1 cohort isn't even at 25% yet. Thanks, but I don't see this as a cause for celebration.

ACitizenErased

lucernarian wrote: »

While priority 1 cohort isn't even at 25% yet. Thanks, but I don't see this as a cause for celebration.

Thought so :pac::pac:

Russman

lucernarian wrote: »

Ah really now, this isn't a GPs vs nursing home staff playoff match, and I never implied anything of the sort. Staff who are not in frontline roles are being vaccinated ahead of frontline staff in the community. I would love to praise and commend the hospital/team who decided to call up local doctors to get their dose as this makes sense from a scientific, moral and social perspective. My problem, is the litany of reports I am hearing and reading where people in an entirely different priority and rollout are being selected ahead of those in the very highest priority.

And that this is happening in such a vague and unaccountable way. The fact the govt described the plan as a living document should not be used as an excuse for teams to vaccinate whoever they decide in the moment, this is completely losing perspective of the need for good planning and an effective rollout where the most exposed and most at risk are vaccinated lest this third wave kill even more people unnecessarily.

I understand this is almost flogging a dead horse by now, it's much harder to keep calm about these issues when they're being misrepresented repeatedly by other posters. Thanks for your time.

I’m not trying to misrepresent anything. I’m genuinely curious as to the complaint you have. From what I can see, yes, certain people in lower groups are getting jabs, mostly by their good luck of being in the right place at the right time. If that was to become widespread and the norm, then there’s an issue. I’m all ears for any suggestion as to what a vaccination team should do at 4pm when they’ve finished their schedule and they have, whatever, let’s say 10 doses left over, for whatever reason. What would you have them do in that situation ?

I don’t know what the policy is regarding vaccinating hospitals in terms of, do they do the whole facility in one go or do they do all the group 1s and then return for the group 2s, 3s etc at later dates ? I’d have thought logistically it makes sense to do the facility in one go. Within a facility I’d of course prioritise by group, but in practical terms if it’s going to take a week to do a given hospital, does the order really matter ?

Russman

Russman wrote: »

I’m not trying to misrepresent anything. I’m genuinely curious as to the complaint you have. From what I can see, yes, certain people in lower groups are getting jabs, mostly by their good luck of being in the right place at the right time. If that was to become widespread and the norm, then there’s an issue. I’m all ears for any suggestion as to what a vaccination team should do at 4pm when they’ve finished their schedule and they have, whatever, let’s say 10 doses left over, for whatever reason. What would you have them do in that situation ?

I don’t know what the policy is regarding vaccinating hospitals in terms of, do they do the whole facility in one go or do they do all the group 1s and then return for the group 2s, 3s etc at later dates ? I’d have thought logistically it makes sense to do the facility in one go. Within a facility I’d of course prioritise by group, but in practical terms if it’s going to take a week to do a given hospital, does the order really matter ?

Booking through some hospitals was open to group 4 employees at the same time as for what you'd normally class as frontline so it hasn't just been a case of people getting lucky and using up spare doses. I'm sure there is an element of practical reality for this but it does mean some people who'd have more patient contact have missed out in the first few weeks.

polesheep

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Booking through some hospitals was open to group 4 employees at the same time as for what you'd normally class as frontline so it hasn't just been a case of people getting lucky and using up spare doses. I'm sure there is an element of practical reality for this but it does mean some people who'd have more patient contact have missed out in the first few weeks.

Agree with all of this. I find the frequent mention of 'no shows' very irritating. In fact, it's been the other way around with staff being told at the last minute that their appointment was postponed.

Sweet.Science

Was giving out all week about the HSE
But great work

Transparency is key

is_that_so

This is the HSE page on vaccination and how the process works. It includes a reminder of the 4 weeks delay for those who currently have COVID.

https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/covid-19-vaccine/getting-covid-19-vaccine.html

hmmm

This super slide should be on the front page of RTE.ie, instead of their current STUPID "Covid immunity could last five months" headline.

https://twitter.com/CovidIreland/status/1349763172673212424

lucernarian

Russman wrote: »

I’m not trying to misrepresent anything. I’m genuinely curious as to the complaint you have. From what I can see, yes, certain people in lower groups are getting jabs, mostly by their good luck of being in the right place at the right time. If that was to become widespread and the norm, then there’s an issue. I’m all ears for any suggestion as to what a vaccination team should do at 4pm when they’ve finished their schedule and they have, whatever, let’s say 10 doses left over, for whatever reason. What would you have them do in that situation ?

I don’t know what the policy is regarding vaccinating hospitals in terms of, do they do the whole facility in one go or do they do all the group 1s and then return for the group 2s, 3s etc at later dates ? I’d have thought logistically it makes sense to do the facility in one go. Within a facility I’d of course prioritise by group, but in practical terms if it’s going to take a week to do a given hospital, does the order really matter ?

Going by the numbers from the RTÉ tweet, it seems that it IS the norm (unless I'm misunderstanding that just 7,000 of the nursing homes cohort have been given a dose so far).

I said days ago that policy involving this was being made up on the hoof and that this was inadequate, but got shot down for that. Now I am told there's some reference to guidelines for hospitals in how the rollout should be administered, and when I ask for details I'm told to ask the HSE CCO :rolleyes: doesn't this prove that

a) there were inadequate guidelines or instructions in place to effectively manage who got what and when and b) there was a need for them to be issued because, you know, this does actually matter so that the ones who need it the most, get it as fast as humanly possible (in current context of 2% prevalence rate in the population). Were the virus not rampant in the community, I wouldn't keep discussing it.

The vials contain 6 doses so if they operate to a schedule where everyone attends, the max they'd have left over is 5 - this is where GPs could be phoned or heck, the people in priority three who are inpatients in the hospital could then receive it. Or just put the last vial back in the fridge where it's good for another 4 days? No-shows would be a problem but I've seen no reports even anecdotally about that.

I don't really see why nursing home staff were not afforded the same opportunity as acute hospital staff to go to the "hubs", if GPs were.

Martina1991

lucernarian wrote: »

Yes, the term seems to be misused and departments are called "phlebotomy" - I don't want to use specific terms that might identify individual lab staff, even though phlebotomists are those taking samples from patients.

As for your claim that they are front line, please read the actual published vaccination plan. Other HCWs not in direct patient
contact are priority 4. They are by default not frontline HCWs who are priority 2.

Phlebotomists are the staff that take blood samples. They are not based in the laboratory. They are under the direction of the director of nursing. They are patient facing so of course should be prioritized.

Laboratory staff are in category 2 to be vaccinated as they are at risk of exposure to bodily fluids and aerosols.
Handling Covid swabs, bronchial lavages, pleural fluids as well as other specimens pose a risk to viral exposure.

Some laboratory staff also do visit wards to troubleshoot and maintain point of care analsyers, and train clinical staff.
Histology staff also have to fix patient tissue directly from biopsy
procedures as they cant be preserved or have a delay in processing.

Vaccine priority also prevents staff being off sick with Covid.
In clinical setting, nurses or doctors can be pulled from wards that have their services and procedures puostponed to wards they are needed in. You can't do that with laboratory staff.

They are already short staffed and any further reduction would lead to a serious reduction the services that can be provided for the entire hospital, not just just Covid testing.

Cork2021

Good table and probably underestimated if we end up with more then 4 vaccines



https://twitter.com/smytho/status/1349769003271671815?s=21

lucernarian

Martina1991 wrote: »

Phlebotomists are the staff that take blood samples. They are not based in the laboratory. They are under the direction of the director of nursing. They are patient facing so of course should be prioritized.

Laboratory staff are in category 2 to be vaccinated as they are at risk of exposure to bodily fluids and aerosols.
Handling Covid swabs, bronchial lavages, pleural fluids as well as other specimens pose a risk to viral exposure.

Some laboratory staff also do visit wards to troubleshoot and maintain point of care analsyers, and train clinical staff.
Histology staff also have to fix patient tissue directly from biopsy
procedures as they cant be preserved or have a delay in processing.

Vaccine priority also prevents staff being off sick with Covid.
In clinical setting, nurses or doctors can be pulled from wards that have their services and procedures puostponed to wards they are needed in. You can't do that with laboratory staff.

They are already short staffed and any further reduction would lead to a serious reduction the services that can be provided for the entire hospital, not just just Covid testing.

Yep, I know what a phlebotomist is, I'll be more careful with how I refer to laboratory staff in phlebotomy departments in future. The staff I know have been involved in diverse things from histology to PCR tests over the year and I wasn't sure on the right job title to use here. Thank you for providing a detailed rationale. I'm not aware of outbreaks directly caused in lab facilities, the risk exists. The nature of such work means you're already working in a BSL 2 lab where there is an assurance of PPE and safety for staff which should mean the risk is pretty low?

Cork2021

This man just loves to be negative

https://twitter.com/astaines/status/1349655106128654338?s=21

cameramonkey

Maybe one of the moderators could include as part of the heading on this thread the most recent figures for vaccinations for both the south and the north of Ireland. It would be easy then for people to see the most up to date figures from both health authorities. Just a proposal.