COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 2 [Mod Warning - Post #1]

salmocab

seamus wrote: »

You're creating a different problem then where you have to prioritize your overbooking list. And what happens when you have more doses than you overbooked for? It's not really the solution you think it is.

Both of his children work in the hospital in some capacity. So on the face of it including them is no biggie.

The process was probably not entirely appropriate; "Start getting in touch with everyone you can think of who works at the hospital", and the master texted his two kids to get down there.

It's not something I'd be getting worked up about. It's not like he drove his entire family down there in a bus and denied doses to other more deserving people.

I’m inclined to agree with you, not a great look but little enough to be worried about. They probably should have had some directions on what to do with the unused shots though.

Corruptedmorals

I fully agree that there should have been a better way to allocate those extra doses. Hopefully there were attempts to communicate with their neighbour hospitals Crumlin and St. James's. A bit difficult in that it was 9.30 on a Friday night so staff are on-call. It's not true to say they didn't vaccinate GPs in the community, they absolutely did.

I work in hospital admin. I am not vaccinated yet as they haven't completed the medical and nursing staff which is fine of course. But there is an outbreak among the admin staff and it is dangerous. Admin are necessary for essential hospital functions and many interact with patients, nurses and doctors. Hospitals should be allocated enough to get the whole building done over 2-3 days max and not risk it dragging out for weeks while community transmission remains so high.

arctictree

Donnelly has stated that he wants a 'full account' of this. Heads will roll - not!

touts

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/dublin-hospital-gave-leftover-vaccines-to-16-relatives-of-staff-1.4460718

So during a lockdown there just happened to be 16 family members of admin staff hanging around outside that could be called into the building and given the vaccine? And two of those just happened to be the children of the Master of the hospital?? And there was no one else around the whole hospital who could be vaccinated???

Clearly there is more to this story than meets the eye. That they were able to name the Master's two children as being among the ones having skipped the queue to be vaccinated means someone involved in the vaccination programme must have not agreed with the decision. Medical treatment is confidential so it had to be someone in the room who knew this happened and clearly they are not happy that it happened.

If it turns out even one member of staff (cleaner, maintenance staff etc) was not vaccinated before O'Connell gave this to his children then his position is completely untenable. He must resign today or be sacked this evening. It is critical that public confidence is maintained in the vaccination programme and this incident just reinforces the widespread belief that senior HSE management look after their own.

is_that_so

Sky King wrote: »

This seems to be very polarised. I can see two camps:

1. "It's a disgrace Joe, sure my own mother is a 127 year old asthmatic and she hasn't got it yet"

2. "Meh, better than dumping them I guess. "


I'd be in cateogry 2 myself, but that is only subject to the doses genuinely being left over, and efforts genuinely being made to find high priority homes for them. I can see 16 being left over at the end of the day as highly plausible when you're vaccinating hundreds of people with something of variable quantity that has to be mixed up.

How easy is it to prepare "too many doses...OOPS!" though?

If people were deliberately over estimating the prep in order to have spares left at the end of the day, it's a different story.

The ire is likely to be justified on this one. This seems to be a lot more than the rumoured stuff of last week. How did these family members allegedly end up on site in a maternity hospital? It is very bad optics at a point where people are convinced there's all sorts of nefarious stuff going on and that the HSE are making a mess of it.

GarIT

Giving out this vaccine is close to deciding who lives and who dies. That wasn't his decision to make. I'm sure they could have found some vulnerable people in the hospital they arent related to.

He should be made an example of. A life sentence, it should be clear you don't mess with the vaccine rollout.

is_that_so

salmocab wrote: »

I’m inclined to agree with you, not a great look but little enough to be worried about. They probably should have had some directions on what to do with the unused shots though.

One would still favour bringing in the Master and tearing him a new one! A very poor decision on his part, which he has belatedly owned up to.

Pepp1989

It's the kids part of it that I've a problem with.

No issue with jabbing someone close by with extra doses that were going to be dumped. However surely you could have had gardai etc there in short order to get the vaccine. It's as easy to ring them as the relatives.

Big concern with those excusing it is that if this is let go with 'no big deal did you want them thrown out' is that it opens the door to favoritism and nepotism from those making the decisions going forward.

Surely the choice is not 'my kid or dump it'. That's too basic.

I cant believe the master of the Coombes didn't say 'anyone but my kids' for optics alone. Naivety or arrogance at his own position and infallibility.

Anyway, hopefully we will soon have enough vaccine supplies that this kind of stuff doesn't matter.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Could they have offered it to some of their patients who had underlying conditions, or would there have been written consent issues?

seamus

salmocab wrote: »

I’m inclined to agree with you, not a great look but little enough to be worried about. They probably should have had some directions on what to do with the unused shots though.

Yeah, this all happened last week, before there was any IT system in place to handle bookings.

So they just did what they thought was the most appropriate thing.

What is needed is not pitchforks and lynchings, but clear guidelines for those managing roll-out with respect to what to do with leftover doses. In the absence of clear guidelines, it is difficult to hold someone to account who was endeavouring to avoid waste, which is general is an alien concept within HSE management

Irish Stones

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/dublin-hospital-gave-leftover-vaccines-to-16-relatives-of-staff-1.4460718

It seems it's happening in several countries in the world.
At the end of the day, when all the people in the list are done and the vaccinators still have some leftover, they just call in some of their relatives. The justification is always the same "we didn't want to waste those last doses".

iamwhoiam

So 16 people will now also need a second jab in a few weeks . Once again causing hurt and upset to those more deserving

GarIT

Zechariah Worried Pug wrote: »

Could they have offered it to some of their patients who had underlying conditions, or would there have been written consent issues?

No there would have been no consent issues.

seamus

Zechariah Worried Pug wrote: »

Could they have offered it to some of their patients who had underlying conditions, or would there have been written consent issues?

Very few, if any patients in the Coombe would have been suitable for this. They're all either babies, pregnant, post-op or have given birth in the last 48 hours.

GarIT

iamwhoiam wrote: »

So 16 people will now also need a second jab in a few weeks . Once again causing hurt and upset to those more deserving

They shouldn't get it.

is_that_so

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, this all happened last week, before there was any IT system in place to handle bookings.

So they just did what they thought was the most appropriate thing.

Usually that means evaluating pros and cons of a number of options and an awareness of what the ultimate decision means. He missed that bit. Let's give it to my kids has a radioactive warning to it!

iamwhoiam

seamus wrote: »

Very few, if any patients in the Coombe would have been suitable for this. They're all either babies, pregnant, post-op or have given birth in the last 48 hours.

I am sure they could have phoned ambulance crews or the Gardai before their own kids ?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

seamus wrote: »

Very few, if any patients in the Coombe would have been suitable for this. They're all either babies, pregnant, post-op or have given birth in the last 48 hours.

Fair enough.

is_that_so

iamwhoiam wrote: »

So 16 people will now also need a second jab in a few weeks . Once again causing hurt and upset to those more deserving

That's less of an issue than how the decision was reached.

E mac

is_that_so wrote: »

That's less of an issue than how the decision was reached.

Ah sur a wink and a nod is the cornerstone of this fine country...

c68zapdsm5i1ru

is_that_so wrote: »

Usually that means evaluating pros and cons of a number of options and an awareness of what the ultimate decision means. He missed that bit. Let's give it to my kids has a radioactive warning to it!

Yes it showed a huge lack of judgment. Even if they were going down the relatives route why pick 2 young and presumably healthy people. I'm sure lots of staff have elderly and fragile parents or grandparents who should have come first.

Irish Stones

GarIT wrote: »

They shouldn't get it.

I think that would be even worse, because 16 doses would be wasted.

is_that_so

Irish Stones wrote: »

I think that would be even worse, because 16 doses would be wasted.

It's not the potential wastage, it's the very poor judgement around who to give it to.

E mac

Irish Stones wrote: »

I think that would be even worse, because 16 doses would be wasted.

32 doses if they get the follow up.

eigrod

Surely they could have arranged, through the HSE, to send two people in a taxi to one of the vaccination centres or to another hospital that have administration underway, with the excess vaccines?

seamus

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I am sure they could have phoned ambulance crews or the Gardai before their own kids ?

Ambulance crews are already on the priority list and there's a vaccination plan in place.
Bringing Gardai unnecessarily into a maternity hospital twice...?

The children work at the hospital.

If there's going to be pearl-clutching by the media every time a spare dose doesn't automatically go to a 130 year old holocaust survivor, then people are just going to get sick of all the whinging.

And then when a busload of Healy-Raes appear at Tralee demanding to be injected, people will be too sick of the "they got it first, that's not fair" childish ****, to care.

AdamD

Storm in a teacup. Wouldn't be surprised if the outrage over this actually results in people wasting left over vaccines for fear of backlash. That or they'll need some sort of system in place. But I'd much rather we actually used all of our doses than sat around debating who is more 'deserving', a questionable word to describe it too.

And suggesting they don't get the second dose is beyond ****ing stupid

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Irish Stones wrote: »

I think that would be even worse, because 16 doses would be wasted.

The over 70s would probably have been due to get their 1st vaccine in the next few weeks so that could count as their 2nd. The younger ones will be taking up a dose that they shouldn't be getting until late Summer.

CIARAN_BOYLE

salmocab wrote: »

I’m inclined to agree with you, not a great look but little enough to be worried about. They probably should have had some directions on what to do with the unused shots though.

Stronger directions to hospitals on what to do with unused doses were issued after a number of incidents with regarding to left over vaccines occurred.

No one is certain when the mater incident happened. It may have been before or after the new guidelines.