COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 2 [Mod Warning - Post #1]

CIARAN_BOYLE

eigrod wrote: »

Surely they could have arranged, through the HSE, to send two people in a taxi to one of the vaccination centres or to another hospital that have administration underway, with the excess vaccines?

Once the doses are made up you cant even bring them upstairs.

Never mind a taxi.

Van.Bosch

seamus wrote: »

Ambulance crews are already on the priority list and there's a vaccination plan in place.
Bringing Gardai unnecessarily into a maternity hospital twice...?

The children work at the hospital.

If there's going to be pearl-clutching by the media every time a spare dose doesn't automatically go to a 130 year old holocaust survivor, then people are just going to get sick of all the whinging.

And then when a busload of Healy-Raes appear at Tralee demanding to be injected, people will be too sick of the "they got it first, that's not fair" childish ****, to care.

If his kids were in the hospital working then fair enough, if they were called in then that’s different. If he had more than 2 kids but just gave it to these as they work in the hospital - then that’s different too

Irish Stones

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not the potential wastage, it's the very poor judgement around who to give it to.

I agree with you completely, it happened in Italy as well a week ago.
I'm not endorsing the attitude at all, but now that it happened we can't do anything else that keep those 16 people ready for the second shot, or 16 more doses will be needed for them.

eigrod

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Once the doses are made up you cant even bring them upstairs.

Never mind a taxi.

Ah, ok. Didn’t know that.

E mac

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Once the doses are made up you cant even bring them upstairs.

Never mind a taxi.

Would the doses not be prepared unless there were people ready to receive them?

Irish Stones

E mac wrote: »

32 doses if they get the follow up.

Actually it's just 16.
They already had the first dose - they were 16 people, 16 doses.
If we give them the second jab in three weeks, they will use the next 16 doses and they're done (32 doses in all).

If we don't give them the second jab, they will be put back in the queue till their time comes, probably in two or three months, then they will have the first dose again (16 doses) and the second dose three weeks later (16 more doses) - 48 doses in total including the ones they had two days ago.

So, if they get the second jab early in February, even though it wasn't their turn, you'll save 16 doses.

Anyway, it's a sad story indeed.

is_that_so

AdamD wrote: »

Storm in a teacup. Wouldn't be surprised if the outrage over this actually results in people wasting left over vaccines for fear of backlash. That or they'll need some sort of system in place. But I'd much rather we actually used all of our doses than sat around debating who is more 'deserving', a questionable word to describe it too.

And suggesting they don't get the second dose is beyond ****ing stupid

Which is the worst story, a wasted 16 shots or this? It'll still mean unnecessary fire fighting all week for the HSE. Head of a hospital made a very poor judgement call and is being deservedly vilified for it. You can't really blame those who took the shots but somehow nobody asked should I be doing this?

CIARAN_BOYLE

E mac wrote: »

Would the doses not be prepared unless there were people ready to receive them?

It was 16 doses. I'm not sure how long the preparation process takes but I can see one person making them up and other people collecting them to be vaccinated.

This did occur before the hse had a computer system in place so there probably wasnt a good way to track people who didn't show up.

Does it need to sit after being made up? I'm not sure the details. I remember some headlines (like its delicate and cant be carried upstairs) when made up).

Irish Stones

Water John wrote: »

The Corona virus is doing minor mutations and I don't see it radically adapting to focus on young people, in some way.

A news I heard said that the Brazil variant seems to be able to re-infect those who already had the covid, thus making the vaccine potentially useless.

Irish Stones

Dickie10 wrote: »

coming into summer with most vaccinated, we will not live in a bubble i think, if sports events, pubs, gigs start to happen in UK and Europe i cant see them being cancelled here. like what happens euro 2020? 40% capacity all through european stadia and 0 people let into games in Aviva?

What about the Olympic Games in Japan? There are rumours that they might be cancelled altogether...

Irish Stones

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

The spray works by killing the virus in the upper airways, which prevents it from incubating and spreading into the lungs.
[...]
The SaNOtize treatment should be thought of as an effective treatment for the upper airways, similar to when people use hand sanitizers to clean their hands on the outside of the body,” Wilson said. "When people are potentially exposed, they will spray to cleanse their upper airways and kill the virus, before it can cause serious illness."

Won't we see all people continually spraying this stuff up their nose 24/7, just in case? Would that be safe for a person doing that?

hotmail.com

The head of the Coombe is clearly incompetent if this was allowed to happen.

Not so incompetent that he phoned his children to get the vaccine.

ixoy

My sister got her first jab over the weekend. It's great to see the vaccination program impacting those close to me, really drives home that the way out of this is underway.

E mac

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

It was 16 doses. I'm not sure how long the preparation process takes but I can see one person making them up and other people collecting them to be vaccinated.

This did occur before the hse had a computer system in place so there probably wasnt a good way to track people who didn't show up.

Does it need to sit after being made up? I'm not sure the details. I remember some headlines (like its delicate and cant be carried upstairs) when made up).

I've no idea either of how this works it would be helpful for everyone if the HSE were to do a step by step from fridge to arm as it were to better understand the process. But to the earlier point I would have assumed you would have x amount of people waiting before preparing the vaccine shots required.

funnydoggy

Morning gang! Does anyone have an up to date statistic on how we are doing in the EU with rollout?

We were #1 a few days ago. That still the case?

Multipass

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

It was 16 doses. I'm not sure how long the preparation process takes but I can see one person making them up and other people collecting them to be vaccinated.

This did occur before the hse had a computer system in place so there probably wasnt a good way to track people who didn't show up.

Does it need to sit after being made up? I'm not sure the details. I remember some headlines (like its delicate and cant be carried upstairs) when made up).

This is even more worrying. How was that not done in time, the vaccines have been on the way or so long.

polesheep

Deleted User wrote: »

What is needed is not pitchforks and lynchings, but clear guidelines for those managing roll-out with respect to what to do with leftover doses. In the absence of clear guidelines, it is difficult to hold someone to account who was endeavouring to avoid waste, which is general is an alien concept within HSE management

All this talk of left over doses and not wasting them and yet people have had her appointments cancelled at short notice - no doses or 'left over' doses to give them. It's very obvious that people not on the list have been vaccinated.

CIARAN_BOYLE

funnydoggy wrote: »

Morning gang! Does anyone have an up to date statistic on how we are doing in the EU with rollout?

We were #1 a few days ago. That still the case?

Those comparisons are worthless. Everyone releases their statistics periodically. We haven't released ours since 13 January.

Not sure when Denmark releases theirs (they were number 1 before us) but whe they do they will probably be number 1 again. When ours are released next we might be number 1 again.

Unless everyone releases daily its worthless.

Hmmzis

Irish Stones wrote: »

A news I heard said that the Brazil variant seems to be able to re-infect those who already had the covid, thus making the vaccine potentially useless.

Any variant can do that:

UK:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/past-covid-19-infection-provides-some-immunity-but-people-may-still-carry-and-transmit-virus

Qatar:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.15.21249731v1

It's the rates that are important. The epidemiological data out of SA (similar variant to Brazil) indicates it's more transmissible or somewhat immune evasive, either 50% more transmissible or 20% evasive with both extremes being unlikely. By going with the median estimates it would be 25% more transmissible by being 10% immune evasive (can't find the pre-print, so going off memory here). Not great, but far from an apocalypse.

dominatinMC

Irish Stones wrote: »

A news I heard said that the Brazil variant seems to be able to re-infect those who already had the covid, thus making the vaccine potentially useless.

A lot of hypotheticals there. Do you have a link to this story, or are you just here to spread your usual negative rhetoric?

CIARAN_BOYLE

polesheep wrote: »

All this talk of left over doses and not wasting them and yet people have had her appointments cancelled at short notice - no doses or 'left over' doses to give them. It's very obvious that people not on the list have been vaccinated.

Seems more likely that certain hospitals overbooked in case of getting an extra dose from the vials.

Every hospital has their own system.

E mac wrote: »

I've no idea either of how this works it would be helpful for everyone if the HSE were to do a step by step from fridge to arm as it were to better understand the process. But to the earlier point I would have assumed you would have x amount of people waiting before preparing the vaccine shots required.

Found the hse document

From delivery from ultra cold freezer to fridge you have 12 hours to dilute the vaccine
When you take it out of the fridge you have 2 hours to dilute the vial
When you dilute the vial you cant move it far and have 12 hours to administer the vaccine

It looks like if theres a delivery in the morning it may make sense to dilute vials if there are evening vaccination appointments as they have a different use by time.

So 8am delivery
At 7:30pm someone says we have 20 vials left and 120 appointments. Make them up. Then the 120 vials get 125 doses and 11 people dont show up.

Bang 16 extra doses.

E mac

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Seems more likely that certain hospitals overbooked in case of getting an extra dose from the vials.

Every hospital has their own system.



Found the hse document

From delivery from ultra cold freezer to fridge you have 12 hours to dilute the vaccine
When you take it out of the fridge you have 2 hours to dilute the vial
When you dilute the vial you cant move it far and have 12 hours to administer the vaccine

It looks like if theres a delivery in the morning it may make sense to dilute vials if there are evening vaccination appointments as they have a different use by time.

So 8am delivery
At 7:30pm someone says we have 20 vials left and 120 appointments. Make them up. Then the 120 vials get 125 doses and 11 people dont show up.

Bang 16 extra doses.

Fair enough. Down the line there’s gonna be a lot of waste of vaccine if people don’t attend their appointment and everyone close by is already done.

polesheep

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Seems more likely that certain hospitals overbooked in case of getting an extra dose from the vials.

Every hospital has their own system.



Found the hse document

From delivery from ultra cold freezer to fridge you have 12 hours to dilute the vaccine
When you take it out of the fridge you have 2 hours to dilute the vial
When you dilute the vial you cant move it far and have 12 hours to administer the vaccine

It looks like if theres a delivery in the morning it may make sense to dilute vials if there are evening vaccination appointments as they have a different use by time.

So 8am delivery
At 7:30pm someone says we have 20 vials left and 120 appointments. Make them up. Then the 120 vials get 125 doses and 11 people dont show up.

Bang 16 extra doses.

Overbooked? Bringing nurses from their units, or from home on their day off, for nothing, just like that? Do you have a book of excuses that you draw from?

feelings

I think everyone agrees that no vaccine should be dumped/wasted.

If there were 16 doses to be dumped from one hospital, I would like to know how many doses are being dumped each day throughout the country?

polesheep

E mac wrote: »

Fair enough. Down the line there’s gonna be a lot of waste of vaccine if people don’t attend their appointment and everyone close by is already done.

It's not fair enough and now the blame is being apportioned to those that 'Don't attend their appointment'. Have you evidence of this?

CIARAN_BOYLE

feelings wrote: »

I think everyone agrees that no vaccine should be dumped/wasted.

If there were 16 doses to be dumped from one hospital, I would like to know how many doses are being dumped each day throughout the country?

Hse policy is to use them on someone rather than dump.

In this case it was family members. Usually its admin or doctors from nearby gp practices jumping the que. Some hospitals book an extra 20 or 30 people for vaccines and cancel if they dont have vaccines.

I hope most are being used.

CIARAN_BOYLE

polesheep wrote: »

Overbooked? Bringing nurses from their units, or from home on their day off, for nothing, just like that? Do you have a book of excuses that you draw from?

We will never have everyone happy. Just this morning someone was complaining that hospitals dont book an extra bunch of staff for vaccines so that if theres extra they get used. If theres no extra well it doesnt matter as the disruption is unimportant.

Some hospitals do that.

I can see why you dont like the policy. Not every hospital does it. We can see why.

ceegee

polesheep wrote: »

All this talk of left over doses and not wasting them and yet people have had her appointments cancelled at short notice - no doses or 'left over' doses to give them. It's very obvious that people not on the list have been vaccinated.

Has there been any indication that these cancellations are in the same places as people have got left over doses? If not then it isn't "very obvious".

We have to give out millions of doses. Deliveries will be delayed, or have less stock than expected, Vials will drop, People will screw up the dilution. **** happens. People need to focus on the 99% of the time the system is working rather than raging at every minor incident where things don't go according to plan

BrianD3

LOL at the posters trying to defend this. I hope you don't work or never work in the public service.

So, two family members of Coombe staff received vaccines with these family members apparently also working in healthcare - need more details on this. Even if they are genuinely healthcare workers the optics are not great. It still leaves another 14 family members for which explanations are needed. Resignations may be necessary.

Anyone who defends this with "would you prefer if vaccine was wasted" is utterly naïve about how nepotism and corruption work or is the sort of person who would engage in it themselves.

It is the responsibility of the Coombe to ensure that

a) the vaccine isn't wasted
and
b) the vaccine isn't handed out to people simply because they are related to staff

People engaging in corruption will find a way to justify their behaviour to themselves, vaccines going to waste justification is a prime example of this. The problem is that human nature will see to it that there is now an incentive to manipulate the situation so that, surprise surprise, there keep being vaccines left over and there just so happen to be family members in the vicinity to receive them.

CIARAN_BOYLE

BrianD3 wrote: »

It is the responsibility of the Coombe to ensure that

a) the vaccine isn't wasted
and
b) the vaccine isn't handed out to people simply because they are related to staff

In regards point a theres been quiet a lot of waste in other countries. It's a tricky vaccine. Germany binned thousands of doses in their first few days. New York fined hospitals for using left over doses on ambulance staff (not top of the priority list).

I dont agree with nepotism and think it's wrong that the vaccine is being given to family members of staff. I do understand how difficult the process is with regard to waste.

HSE issued strong guidance about the use of left over vaccine after this occurred. Hopefully they are being followed. I haven read them.