COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 2 [Mod Warning - Post #1]

josip

seamus wrote: »

...

The children work at the hospital.
...

True, I think that's also something worth noting.
I wonder does everyone starting out their medical career get the opportunity of relevant work experience or does it depend on who you are related to?

seamus

So as usual it appears that there are people who believe that family members of management or politicians should automatically be placed at the bottom of the list for everything otherwise it's nepotism.

Of course, nobody will provide any evidence that these two people should not have been selected. Apparently walking out onto the street and grabbing a couple of unknown randomers is preferable to selecting two known individuals who actually work in the hospital, just because their father happens to be in charge.

It's a kind of weird reverse nepotism.

I have no doubt that with a bit more time, they could have found someone who is slightly higher up the pecking order to get this vaccine. But it's not like they're administrating life-or-death anti-venom. Everyone will get vaccinated eventually.

crossman47

is_that_so wrote: »

Which is the worst story, a wasted 16 shots or this? It'll still mean unnecessary fire fighting all week for the HSE. Head of a hospital made a very poor judgement call and is being deservedly vilified for it. You can't really blame those who took the shots but somehow nobody asked should I be doing this?

I don't think he made a bad call at all. Under pressure, he found a way to use the vaccine having tried other ways. I don't know anything about the man but he should be left get on with his job rather than dealing with this minor issue hyped up by a media desperate for a scare story.

GreeBo

BrianD3 wrote: »

Resignations may be necessary.

Yep, fewer vaccinators, that'll speed up the process.
You are just proving that all you care about is outrage.

GreeBo

josip wrote: »

True, I think that's also something worth noting.
I wonder does everyone starting out their medical career get the opportunity of relevant work experience or does it depend on who you are related to?

Seriously?
You are now enquiring about the validity of their work placement?

Give over.

crossman47

BrianD3 wrote: »

LOL at the posters trying to defend this. I hope you don't work or never work in the public service.

So, two family members of Coombe staff received vaccines with these family members apparently also working in healthcare - need more details on this. Even if they are genuinely healthcare workers the optics are not great. It still leaves another 14 family members for which explanations are needed. Resignations may be necessary.

Anyone who defends this with "would you prefer if vaccine was wasted" is utterly naïve about how nepotism and corruption work or is the sort of person who would engage in it themselves.

It is the responsibility of the Coombe to ensure that

a) the vaccine isn't wasted
and
b) the vaccine isn't handed out to people simply because they are related to staff

People engaging in corruption will find a way to justify their behaviour to themselves, vaccines going to waste justification is a prime example of this. The problem is that human nature will see to it that there is now an incentive to manipulate the situation so that, surprise surprise, there keep being vaccines left over and there just so happen to be family members in the vicinity to receive them.

Rubbish. You really think people have time to engage in that type of manipulation?people are looking for a scandal where none exists.

salmocab

crossman47 wrote: »

I don't think he made a bad call at all. Under pressure, he found a way to use the vaccine having tried other ways. I don't know anything about the man but he should be left get on with his job rather than dealing with this minor issue hyped up by a media desperate for a scare story.

Ah he made a bad call, it’s terrible optics. I’d be surprised if there weren’t better candidates for it available. However I don’t think it’s a particularly big deal really. They got it a bit early and do long as it wasn’t at the expense of someone who was due it I think a rap on the knuckles and a clear set of criteria for what’s to be done with the excess doses should be the end of it.

crossman47

salmocab wrote: »

Ah he made a bad call, it’s terrible optics. I’d be surprised if there weren’t better candidates for it available. However I don’t think it’s a particularly big deal really. They got it a bit early and do long as it wasn’t at the expense of someone who was due it I think a rap on the knuckles and a clear set of criteria for what’s to be done with the excess doses should be the end of it.

Terrible optics but maybe the best could be done under pressure.

BrianD3

GreeBo wrote: »

Yep, fewer vaccinators, that'll speed up the process.
You are just proving that all you care about is outrage.

The usual BS from you. Point out where I said that a vaccinator should resign.

Russman

Terrible optics, but if its the case, as is being reported, that they had 120 doses left over, due to getting 6/7 doses from the vials and tried to contact whoever they could and even after all that, they still had 16 doses left, its a complete non-story IMO. Decisions made in real time will always be second guessed. If he called the fire station to bring them in, you'd have people complaining why the guards didn't get it - "....his second cousin twice removed is a fireman....".
It was a poor decision but that's all it was - as long as it doesn't turn out staff didn't get their vaccines because of it.

As for the calls for people to lose their jobs over this - get a grip.

Miike

Too many of you to quote but I still want to a pose the question. How do you not find it morally corrupt and an abuse of power that a hospital manager has decided to vaccine his own children (if that's true) over healthcare workers in the locality? Do you whole heartedly believe they "couldn't find" people to give them to? I personally do not give a flying f if it was 16, 6, 1 or 160 vaccines, what it represents is, at its core, morally objectionable when we have people working in COVID units without so much as an appointment for vaccination yet.


Mind blowing.

lbj666

This is a great distraction from the fact that our neighbours including the North are now setting the narrative of end of June to have every over 18 vaccinated.

is_that_so

crossman47 wrote: »

I don't think he made a bad call at all. Under pressure, he found a way to use the vaccine having tried other ways. I don't know anything about the man but he should be left get on with his job rather than dealing with this minor issue hyped up by a media desperate for a scare story.

Well he now regrets it so it can't have been the greatest decision in the world. Just I'll give it to my kids sets off automatic alarm bells. He might have got out of it by not doing that. It's actually the damage to the public perception of the process that he's put under pressure. There's enough discontent about the pace, who gets it and whether the HSE can do it without him sideswiping the whole thing. He saved 16 doses but the HSE and government will have to clean up his mess for the rest of the week.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Miike wrote: »

Too many of you to quote but I still want to a pose the question. How do you not find it morally corrupt and an abuse of power that a hospital manager has decided to vaccine his own children (if that's true) over healthcare workers in the locality? Do you whole heartedly believe they "couldn't find" people to give them to? I personally do not give a flying f if it was 16, 6, 1 or 160 vaccines, what it represents is, at its core, morally objectionable when we have people working in COVID units without so much as an appointment for vaccination yet.


Mind blowing.

Considering he was personally ringing health care workers at 9:30pm I can understand there being a difficulty finding people.

Someone should have made a decision earlier to look for people.

BrianD3

BrianD3 wrote: »

LOL at the posters trying to defend this. I hope you don't work or never work in the public service.

So, two family members of Coombe staff received vaccines with these family members apparently also working in healthcare - need more details on this. Even if they are genuinely healthcare workers the optics are not great. It still leaves another 14 family members for which explanations are needed. Resignations may be necessary.

Anyone who defends this with "would you prefer if vaccine was wasted" is utterly naïve about how nepotism and corruption work or is the sort of person who would engage in it themselves.

It is the responsibility of the Coombe to ensure that

a) the vaccine isn't wasted
and
b) the vaccine isn't handed out to people simply because they are related to staff

People engaging in corruption will find a way to justify their behaviour to themselves, vaccines going to waste justification is a prime example of this. The problem is that human nature will see to it that there is now an incentive to manipulate the situation so that, surprise surprise, there keep being vaccines left over and there just so happen to be family members in the vicinity to receive them.

Strong allegations

VonLuck

lbj666 wrote: »

This is a great distraction from the fact that our neighbours including the North are now setting the narrative of end of June to have every over 18 vaccinated.

What's your point? Would you like Ireland to abandon the EU, the associated regulatory approval process and also go back in time to commence vaccinations earlier than permitted?

Miike

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Considering he was personally ringing health care workers at 9:30pm I can understand there being a difficulty finding people.

Someone should have made a decision earlier to look for people.

I would love to hear from these healthcare workers who turned down vaccination, honestly.

Stark

lbj666 wrote: »

This is a great distraction from the fact that our neighbours including the North are now setting the narrative of end of June to have every over 18 vaccinated.

There's a good chance we could end up on similar timeframe if the likes of J&J, Curevac and Novavax get approved. At the moment they're being careful not to overpromise by only including the two currently approved vaccines and Astrazenaca in their plans.

Also the UK took a bit risk in approving vaccines before having a chance to fully evaluate data on the vaccines. It's paying off for them in that they have a head start but it could just have easily backfired and given the anti-vaxx movement fuel for years to come. We have to wait a little longer but it means we can have confidence in whatever the EMA decides we should stick in our arms.

GreeBo

BrianD3 wrote: »

The usual BS from you. Point out where I said that a vaccinator should resign.

Ok, who would you like to resign then?
Tell us what person could resign and it not negatively impact the current situation?

polesheep

Miike wrote: »

Too many of you to quote but I still want to a pose the question. How do you not find it morally corrupt and an abuse of power that a hospital manager has decided to vaccine his own children (if that's true) over healthcare workers in the locality? Do you whole heartedly believe they "couldn't find" people to give them to? I personally do not give a flying f if it was 16, 6, 1 or 160 vaccines, what it represents is, at its core, morally objectionable when we have people working in COVID units without so much as an appointment for vaccination yet.


Mind blowing.

Spot on.

CSWS101

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Considering he was personally ringing health care workers at 9:30pm I can understand there being a difficulty finding people.

Someone should have made a decision earlier to look for people.

What's concerning is that it took him til 9:30 to realise the number of doses they were getting per vial and the number of people they had ready for vaccinations didn't match up. Baffling how a list of reserves wasn't compiled previous to beginning the process. Terrible planning and optics but it's 16 more people vaccinated, at least they were not discarded. Onwards and upwards

is_that_so

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok, who would you like to resign then?
Tell us what person could resign and it not negatively impact the current situation?

There shouldn't be any on this but it's a very big learning opportunity, particularly for the HSE guidelines and protocols. The Master will be publicly roasted for a bit and that's his punishment.

lbj666

Stark wrote: »

There's a good chance we could end up on similar timeframe if the likes of J&J, Curevac and Novavax get approved. At the moment they're being careful not to overpromise by only including the two currently approved vaccines and Astrazenaca in their plans.

Also the UK took a bit risk in approving vaccines before having a chance to fully evaluate data on the vaccines. It's paying off for them in that they have a head start but it could just have easily backfired and given the anti-vaxx movement fuel for years to come. We have to wait a little longer but it means we can have confidence in whatever the EMA decides we should stick in our arms.

UK are basing those projections on just getting J&J and Moderna online, not allowing for curevac and novavax. So JJ at best could knock a month off what they'd planned, I reckon in there somewhere there is a pull away of an another month at least, unless they are fudging it and mean 1st dose for over 18s.

Amirani

CSWS101 wrote: »

What's concerning is that it took him til 9:30 to realise the number of doses they were getting per vial and the number of people they had ready for vaccinations didn't match up. Baffling how a list of reserves wasn't compiled previous to beginning the process. Terrible planning and optics but it's 16 more people vaccinated, at least they were not discarded. Onwards and upwards

Some people have clearly never worked in a hospital, or anything remotely related to healthcare. Do you actually think the Master of the hospital is down counting the vials of vaccine they have and number of doses they're getting throughout the day?

What will have happened would be the vaccination team get through their list of people and reach the end of the day with some left over. At this point, vaccination team contact management and the Master is informed that "there's 16 doses left over, what should we do with them?"

lucernarian

radiotrickster wrote: »

I know a couple of people involved in one hospitals vaccination team and most people involved in the team have been working 6-7 days a week since Christmas.

I agree. Admin staff, cleaners and catering all deserve the vaccine for good reason. Admin staff work with doctors, check in patients, often work on COVID wards and are usually the ones who have to deal with anti-maskers to turn them away or get them to wear a mask.

Cleaners are going into COVID wards and are at risk. They’re hugely important in preventing the spread of infection and it’s only right they get vaccinated.

Catering staff are delivering food to wards, and again interacting with a ton of people each day – doctors, nurses, patients. They deserve to be protected when working in a hospital.

Anyone who thinks admin/catering/cleaning staff don’t deserve the vaccine should try working in each role and see how much patient contact you have. It’s a lot more than you probably think.

Every staff member in each hospital should be offered the vaccine because they’re all working there for a reason, and if one department gets wiped out with COVID, there’ll be knock-on effects.

My sister is priority 4, and my mother is priority 1. I know for a fact that my sister has zero patient contact in her role and she cannot understand why she was given an appointment date well before our mother. Now there's some HSE shills who would like to treat any questioning of the rollout so far as some kind of personal attack, but there was an official agreed plan. I'm all for living documents etc. but there has to be accountability and openness like updates, explanations etc.

I feel quite sorry for the Coombe staff who felt like there would be vaccine thrown out otherwise, this needed to have been anticipated and planned for by NIAC and it's on them that there's such political fallout today (like I predicted for over a week now)

CIARAN_BOYLE

CSWS101 wrote: »

What's concerning is that it took him til 9:30 to realise the number of doses they were getting per vial and the number of people they had ready for vaccinations didn't match up. Baffling how a list of reserves wasn't compiled previous to beginning the process. Terrible planning and optics but it's 16 more people vaccinated, at least they were not discarded. Onwards and upwards

Seeing other reports now

120 extra doses.

They contacted the hse during the day who contacted local gaps and community health workers.

Then when the hse told them they had sent who they could people started ringing around themselves.

Then they looked at family of staff.

I understand that theres a level of skill in getting 6/7 doses from a vial. Who ever was on charge in the coombe should be sent to teach a class. 120 extra doses in a day. Fair play to them.

lucernarian

lucernarian wrote: »

My sister is priority 4, and my mother is priority 1. I know for a fact that my sister has zero patient contact in her role and she cannot understand why she was given an appointment date well before our mother. Now there's some HSE shills who would like to treat any questioning of the rollout so far as some kind of personal attack, but there was an official agreed plan. I'm all for living documents etc. but there has to be accountability and openness like updates, explanations etc.

I feel quite sorry for the Coombe staff who felt like there would be vaccine thrown out otherwise, this needed to have been anticipated and planned for by NIAC and it's on them that there's such political fallout today (like I predicted for over a week now)

Someone who doesn't immediately assume the worst and jump to conclusions = shill?

is_that_so

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Seeing other reports now

120 extra doses.

They contacted the hse during the day who contacted local gaps and community health workers.

Then when the hse told them they had sent who they could people started ringing around themselves.

Then they looked at family of staff.

I understand that theres a level of skill in getting 6/7 doses from a vial. Who ever was on charge in the coombe should be sent to teach a class. 120 extra doses in a day. Fair play to them.

They deserve a level of praise for that but he fell down in not working through the implications of the decision properly. Then again maybe he had and was prepared for the any flak he and the hospital are getting but he managed to shine an unwelcome spotlight on the rollout process.

CSWS101

Amirani wrote: »

Some people have clearly never worked in a hospital, or anything remotely related to healthcare. Do you actually think the Master of the hospital is down counting the vials of vaccine they have and number of doses they're getting throughout the day?

What will have happened would be the vaccination team get through their list of people and reach the end of the day with some left over. At this point, vaccination team contact management and the Master is informed that "there's 16 doses left over, what should we do with them?"

Well no I'm obviously not implying he's counting them himself. He's the head of the hospital which is undergoing an important process under national scrutiny, I think it would be in his interest that it ran smoothly. What I'm saying is how there was no foresight of a list to work through if there was additional doses, either through surplus or people unable to make the appointment.

Amirani

CSWS101 wrote: »

Well no I'm obviously not implying he's counting them himself. He's the head of the hospital which is undergoing an important process under national scrutiny, I think it would be in his interest that it ran smoothly. What I'm saying is how there was no foresight of a list to work through if there was additional doses, either through surplus or people unable to make the appointment.

The vaccination process would be one of the lower importance items going on in hospitals at the moment to be honest. Hospitals nationally are absolute swamped with tonnes of staff out sick, wards closing and some wards beyond capacity. There's a very real ongoing threat of not being able to provide care to people who need it. This is all of far more importance than whether there's <1% of vaccine doses left at the end of the day.