COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 2 [Mod Warning - Post #1]

frozen3

Roger_007 wrote: »

If virtually the whole population is vaccinated how would the virus spread, much less evolve. Surely it would have nowhere to go?

Some scientists believe the mutations we see with the E484K mutations came from vaccinated people and selective pressure to some degree, they were leaning towards it came from antibody treatments on sick people with weak immune system's but now are looking at the vaccine dose's.

The theory goes that the immune response supposedly wasn't stong enough or vaccine not dosed high enough to let the body kill the virus and the virus had a chance to mutate as a result to survive, it's only a theory but make's sense.

What I really don't get since this whole thing started in late 2019 is how we can't test the droplets for Covid19?

The droplet's we infect each other with.

It's spread through droplets from the mouth/nose right?

Why can't we test those said droplets for the virus that's infecting us all?

If someone put down poison in your garden and it killed your dog/made him sick, you'd test that liquid you saw in your garden, even by smell on the ground to see what it was.

Find it strange we can't do that as a home test, with all the technology we have.

afatbollix

We can they have a 15 minute test but it's 92% correct. You can get them for about e8 each now.


But seemingly 92% effectiveness is not good enough for mass testing.

frozen3

afatbollix wrote: »

We can they have a 15 minute test but it's 92% correct. You can get them for about e8 each now.


But seemingly 92% effectiveness is not good enough for mass testing.

Shouldn't they be 100%?

Either Sars Cov 2 is in the droplets that infects people or it isn't?

Or maybe not all people can infect others even if they have the virus?

They are infected with the virus but it's not in the droplets to infect?

JTMan

Guardian reporting here that the UK have ordered 50 million 2nd generation CureVac vaccines for later this year.

Stark

JTMan wrote: »

Guardian reporting here that the UK have ordered 50 million 2nd generation CureVac vaccines for later this year.

2nd gen?

JTMan

Martin was on Prime Time last night and he was asked would we be doing like the Germans and buy extra vaccines ourselves along with what the EU would allocate to us, same as the other day when asked if we could buy off the Brits he refused to answer but continued spluttering his way through the rest of the interview.

I really hope that the Irish government are currently having serious conversations now about getting surplus vaccines from the UK, which may be available in May.

The UK are likely to have a lot of surplus supply around then. Perhaps enough to cover the remainder of the Irish population and could help Ireland complete vaccinations months ahead of schedule.

The FT wrote an article here (paywall) advocating this.

JTMan

Stark wrote: »

2nd gen?

Yeah, one that will better combat new variants of coronavirus, than the first generation CureVac vaccine.

Apogee

Irish Times wrote:

There are no plans to buy Covid-19 vaccines outside the EU process, the Department of Health has confirmed, while it remains unclear if surplus UK doses could be imported into the State. Although health authorities here are administering vaccines as quickly as supplies arrive, the Department of Health says it does not intend to seek additional supplies from outside the EU framework. The department also confirmed that it is not prevented by EU rules from seeking supplies from companies outside the EU portfolio. The EU has been widely criticised for the speed of its vaccination rollout, with the UK and US vaccinating people at a quicker pace.

A UK government minister said last weekend that when the country has surplus stocks, it could transfer some to Ireland. “You cannot say at the moment whether it would be legal or illegal,” a European Commission spokesman said of the proposal. “The question of legality depends on the case at the time.”The spokesman said such a move could involve shipping “unauthorised products” into the EU.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-has-no-plans-to-buy-surplus-covid-19-vaccines-outside-eu-process-1.4476496

Hard to understand the rationale behind this approach. Given Ireland's relatively small population, even a small returned/unused surplus from some of the bigger EU countries, or via the UK, could make a big impact here.

Water John

Apogee wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-has-no-plans-to-buy-surplus-covid-19-vaccines-outside-eu-process-1.4476496

Hard to understand the rationale behind this approach. Given Ireland's relatively small population, even a small returned/unused surplus from some of the bigger EU countries, or via the UK, could make a big impact here.

When do you think such surplus might be available?

eoinbn

JTMan wrote: »

Yeah, one that will better combat new variants of coronavirus, than the first generation CureVac vaccine.

Europe has ordered 405m vaccines that will mostly be outdated by the time they arrived(2022). On the other hand the UK ordered nothing from them this time around but are already looking at ramping up production for next year. Can't just all be luck that nearly all the calls the UK have made have turned out correct and most calls by the EU have proven wrong. Changes need to be made at the head of the EU vaccine task force.

afatbollix

frozen3 wrote: »

Shouldn't they be 100%?

Either Sars Cov 2 is in the droplets that infects people or it isn't?

Or maybe not all people can infect others even if they have the virus?

They are infected with the virus but it's not in the droplets to infect?

Nothing is 100%, A PCR test is 97% and also costs e99 each. It has to be checked in a lab, It's not like you will be spending that kind of cash per day.

JacksonHeightsOwn

eoinbn wrote: »

Europe has ordered 405m vaccines that will mostly be outdated by the time they arrived(2022). On the other hand the UK ordered nothing from them this time around but are already looking at ramping up production for next year. Can't just all be luck that nearly all the calls the UK have made have turned out correct and most calls by the EU have proven wrong. Changes need to be made at the head of the EU vaccine task force.

I'm not an expert on the matter, far from it actually. But im fairly sure the CureVac has been funded massively by the EU, so any orders from them, be it 1st or 2nd generation, you would imagine we'll have good access to.

Apogee

Irish Times wrote:

A number of large-scale vaccination clinics are to be established in Dublin, Cork and Galway under new plans for administering the Covid-19 vaccine to patients over the age of 70.

The vast majority of patients will be vaccinated in their own GP practice – some 70 per cent of GP practices will see their patients vaccinated on site – with deliveries through the HSE’s cold chain to all practices with more that 200 over 70s.

Those practices will need to have a registration area, a refrigeration area – which will double as an area for vaccines to be reconstituted – and a vaccination area and an observation area. These will be managed by GPs, admin staff and nurses.

However, for practices with fewer than 200 over 70s – some 400 practices – vaccinations will take place on two pathways. The first will be through GP vaccination clinics, and the second pathway is through a “buddying up” system. The vaccination clinics in urban centres will be at agreed locations – among the first of these will be in DCU, where 121 practices will come together to run clinics. Booking, registration and payment will happen through GPs own practices – with doctors told “the only change is the venue at which the patient will receive the vaccine”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/large-scale-covid-vaccination-clinics-to-be-set-up-in-dublin-cork-galway-for-over-70s-1.4477528

markodaly

dominatinMC wrote: »

And there we have it - mutate and variant. All you're missing is "strain" for the full house. Your predictability is only matched by your arrogance.

Arrogance to follow the advice from the WHO, the CDC and other health NGO's?


Tell us all, who is advising that we let the virus just roam freely, up to 30,000 cases a day?

Whilst I agree that countries need to be cautious during the vaccine rollout, the idea that case numbers should be used as a metric once we are all vaccinated is a fallacy. Ask any public health expert and they will tell you that restrictions are necessary to ensure a functioning health system.

The same health experts also agree with me in regards to keeping numbers as low as possible, even post vaccinations
Why? Because the new immune response can and could change the nature of the virus and make it mutate to something that can slide under existing vaccines.

So the health system will not be under any strain but, using your argument, we continue with restrictions indefinitely as the virus is still circulating?

Didn't say this now, did I?

markodaly

Le Bruise wrote: »

I assume he means no crowds until 70%-80% vaccinated, even if the cases hit zero (which they never would)? If he means no crowds, even after there's herd immunity through vaccinations...then I give up!!

There will be some crowds allowed (maybe 25-50% capacity) once we get to a certain threshold of people vaccinated, but like my last point, the idea, once we get to 70% or so, vaccinated, we can do what we want and let the virus unleash itself onto the population.... is not backed by any science or serious health body.

Covid cases have to be low locally, regionally and worldwide for things to get back to 'normal'. We are still miles away from that, but we will get there, but not as quick as some may like.

chrisbonnie

chrisbonnie wrote: »

I'm not an expert on the matter, far from it actually. But im fairly sure the CureVac has been funded massively by the EU, so any orders from them, be it 1st or 2nd generation, you would imagine we'll have good access to.

Some never let facts get in the way of an ill informed rant.

Mark1916

https://twitter.com/irishtimes/status/1357963245974261764?s=21

KlArmy

Has anyone questioned Dr. Holohan on his recommendation on mRNA vaccines for O-70s ?

Seems like the guy is on a solo run with this , bizarre to my way of thinking

Government just accepted it

is_that_so

KlArmy wrote: »

Has anyone questioned Dr. Holohan on his recommendation on mRNA vaccines for O-70s ?

Seems like the guy is on a solo run with this , bizarre to my way of thinking

Government just accepted it

It's not a solo run, data is limited on that age group and we are acting in the same way almost every other country apart from Britain has.

Cluedo Monopoly

Worryingly there are lads on Moore Street selling the Oxford-Aztrazeneca vaccine for €2 each.
Or 3 for a Pfizer.

Icantthinkof1

If the gp’s will be giving Pfizer/ Moderna vaccinations to the elderly
Who will be administering the AZ vaccines? Pharmacists themselves aren’t yet vaccinated are they; so it can’t be them?

KlArmy

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not a solo run, data is limited on that age group and we are acting in the same way almost every other country apart from Britain has.

He contradicted NIAC and it now appears he is wrong

Britain has got this right

is_that_so

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

If the gp’s will be giving Pfizer/ Moderna vaccinations to the elderly
Who will be administering the AZ vaccines to fhcw? Pharmacists themselves aren’t vaccinated so it can’t be them?

We have 5,000 vaccinators already. You'd expect to to deal with the very limited AZ flow. I believe the pharmacists discussion is ongoing.

iamwhoiam

KlArmy wrote: »

Has anyone questioned Dr. Holohan on his recommendation on mRNA vaccines for O-70s ?

Seems like the guy is on a solo run with this , bizarre to my way of thinking

Government just accepted it

It was not a solo run at all

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/large-scale-covid-vaccination-clinics-for-over-70s-planned-in-cities-1076766.html


Chief medical officer Dr Tony Holohan said, following the authorisation of the AstraZeneca vaccine, he asked the National Immunisation Advisory Committee (NIAC) led by Prof Karina Butler to provide advice on the use of this vaccine in older adults and to consider the appropriate time interval between the first and second doses.

“Based on their advice, I recommended to the Minister for Health that we provide only the mRNA vaccines, Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna, to people over the age of 70,” he said.

stephenjmcd

KlArmy wrote: »

He contradicted NIAC and it now appears he is wrong

Britain has got this right

Utter crap, nobody has contradicted NIAC.

KlArmy

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Utter crap, nobody has contradicted NIAC.

I was going by the Irish times article which highlighted the difference of opinion between nphet and Dr holohan

Happydays2020

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

If the gp’s will be giving Pfizer/ Moderna vaccinations to the elderly
Who will be administering the AZ vaccines? Pharmacists themselves aren’t yet vaccinated are they; so it can’t be them?

To be fair they have had to change the plan on over 70’s which is the immediate focus. They will then have to consider what to do with the AZ ones they now get. They need to now adapt the strategy.

Any indications now on who will get the AZ one as a priority? Presumably high risk under 65 will get Pfizer or moderna also?

brickster69

India ramping up big style now. Delivered to date


Maldives 100K
Bhutan 150K
Nepal 1M
Bangladesh 2M
Myanmar 1.5M
Mauritius 100K
Sri Lanka 500K
Seychelles 50K
Bahrain 100K
Oman 100K
Brazil 2M
Morocco 2M
Mongolia 1.5M
Nicaragua 200K
Barbodas 100K
Dominica 70K
Africa 10M
Afghanistan 0.5M

Stheno

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Utter crap, nobody has contradicted NIAC.

Apparently Holohan did

Political sources have conceded that what NIAC recommended was different to what Dr Holohan would himself recommend.

The advisory group said “any currently authorised Covid-19 vaccine can be given to adults of all ages, including those aged 70 and older”. Crucially, they said the vaccination of those aged 70 and older “should not be delayed”.



“Where practicable and timely, those aged 70 and older should be given an mRNA vaccine.” Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna are mRNA vaccines.

This is in contrast to Dr Holohan’s advice that “due to superior efficacy demonstrated by mRNA vaccines, including in older persons (albeit the data is limited) and in recognition of their particular vulnerability in terms of their increased risk of death and serious disease if they contract SARS- CoV-2, it is recommended that mRNA vaccines be administered to all those over 70 years in order to provide the highest level of protection available to this population”.

There was another element to his recommendations that would prove to be important. He told the Minister that “assurance should be provided by the HSE that vaccine supplies will be sufficient to progress this important objective in a timely fashion”.

For some in the Department of Health, the plan seemed quite simple by Wednesday: both the Minister and Dr Holohan would endorse the recommendations from NIAC.

But that evening, alarm bells were sounding in the Department of the Taoiseach. A number of sources who spoke to The Irish Times said the issues were as follows: there were “more questions than answers”, there was not enough detail on what the HSE response would be, and there was that matter of how Dr Holohan “went further” than the advisory group.

The idea of delaying vaccinations for the over-70s at a time when the NIAC said this should not happen also rankled.

Programme recast

Given the importance of maintaining trust in the vaccination programme, officials in the Taoiseach’s department believed there was little to no choice but to recast the vaccination programme so that only the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, known as mRNA vaccines, would be given to those over 70.

Those close to Mr Donnelly say he was in close alignment with the chief medical officer on the issue. Those helping to co-ordinate the pandemic response 500 metres away in Merrion Street were aware this was a sizeable bump in the road and would result in much scrambling, both in the HSE and for the high-level vaccine task force.

Despite this, there was no public questioning of the chief medical officer despite the ramifications. There was instead a widespread feeling that after the events of Christmas, pretty much no one in Government had the appetite to push back against Dr Holohan.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/no-one-in-government-has-appetite-to-push-back-against-holohan-1.4477368?mode=amp

brickster69

Due this quarter

Nepal 2M
Bangladesh 5M
Myanmar 2M
UAE 2M
Mongolia 1M
Saudi Arabia 3M
Egypt 50K
Algeria 50K
Kuwait 2M
Nicaragua 300K