COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 2 [Mod Warning - Post #1]

Water John

TMK Moderna haven't applied to the EU yet. It's coming, along with Oxford, two vaccines not needing extreme cold storage.

ACitizenErased

Water John wrote: »

TMK Moderna haven't applied to the EU yet. It's coming, along with Oxford, two vaccines not needing extreme cold storage.

Moderna approval happening Jan 6th. Application sent in on December 1st.

Cork2021

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Moderna approval happening Jan 6th. Application sent in on December 1st.

How many doses per week are we expecting to get with moderna?

eigrod

Impressive

https://twitter.com/darranmarshall/status/1344025725783961608?s=21

hmmm

lbj666 wrote: »

By my own flawed logic and I could be wrong, if the body has gone to work on the spike protein already but passes it onto someone else you are passing on viral particles less likely to bind and cause the disease. Of course if you passed on in the early stages of infection that's less likely.

Don't know about that but I've seen at least two solid US commentators say that they would be very surprised if a vaccine which prevents severe Covid doesn't also work to reduce the length of time someone is symptomatic.

Stheno

eigrod wrote: »

Impressive

https://twitter.com/darranmarshall/status/1344025725783961608?s=21

Wow

Irish Stones

Stheno wrote: »

Its dependant on supply firstly, the delay with the Oxford vaccine and others would be a concern

Now thats countered by the fact the EU are buying another 100 million Pfizer doses but that will only cover 50% of the population

However there appears to be good news in that people are finding vials have six and not five doses so that's a positive

If we can get all over 65s and health workers done by end of March it would have a huge impact

I wonder how nobody at Pfizer ever realized this before.
If a vial has a preset volume for 5 doses, how can a sixth one come out of nothing?

Stheno

Irish Stones wrote: »

I wonder how nobody at Pfizer ever realized this before.
If a vial has a preset volume for 5 doses, how can a sixth one come out of nothing?

Read back

Multi dose vials tend to have excess due to wastage etc

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

I wonder how nobody at Pfizer ever realized this before.
If a vial has a preset volume for 5 doses, how can a sixth one come out of nothing?

Overage. You need to ensure the person administering the vaccine can get a minimum of 5 doses, so they overfill to allow for this and the small volume at the bottom that will not be recoverable

Irish Stones

Stheno wrote: »

Read back

Multi dose vials tend to have excess due to wastage etc

And is this excess so much to build a sixth dose? I mean, this should have been mentioned in the papers already, not to be found out afterwards.
I always thought that pharma industry would rather sell less volume than it is written on the labels.

Water John

Irish Stones wrote: »

And is this excess so much to build a sixth dose? I mean, this should have been mentioned in the papers already, not to be found out afterwards.
I always thought that pharma industry would rather sell less volume than it is written on the labels.

That, would be illegal. The actual volume of the vial has little to do with its cost/profit.
You know where the, bakers dozen, came from? French bakers would be fined if they were short in the dozen loaves they sold, so they included one extra to be sure.

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

And is this excess so much to build a sixth dose? I mean, this should have been mentioned in the papers already, not to be found out afterwards.
I always thought that pharma industry would rather sell less volume than it is written on the labels.

You obviously know little about the pharma industry. What is actually in the vial is probably the least expensive part of the whole process

Cork2021

Cork2021 wrote: »

How many doses per week are we expecting to get with moderna?

No clear info yet, I don't think any doses have actually rolled off the European production line yet and we aren't going to see any doses being flown from the US so could be February before we get any. At that stage we might get up to 100,000 a month.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Cork2021 wrote: »

How many doses per week are we expecting to get with moderna?

Our total order is less than half the Pfizer order. I've no idea if that will come in at the same rate or faster or slower.

lbj666

eigrod wrote: »

Impressive

https://twitter.com/darranmarshall/status/1344025725783961608?s=21

They started 8th of December, 3 weeks up to 80%, so thats less than 4 weeks for 100%. Say 7 weeks for 2 doses. Its not actually far off the pace planned here, but off course start date is is not til the 11th..think we've all said our bit on that.

Chris_5339762

Irish Stones wrote: »

And is this excess so much to build a sixth dose? I mean, this should have been mentioned in the papers already, not to be found out afterwards.
I always thought that pharma industry would rather sell less volume than it is written on the labels.

If you need 5ml of liquid for one dose, you might find that after extracting five doses there is 4.9ml remaining. If thats the case, you chuck it. No mixing of bottles I don't think. However, if you have 5.1ml remaining, you have yourself an extra dose. Just need the EU to OK its use as a sixth dose. That will happen, they're doing it in the US already.



They do have to overfill, you have to have an extra bit, you can't have just exactly 25ml in the vial... you might extract 5ml and theres a little bit of a drip that gets taken up as well so you're actually extracting 5.2ml. Need a buffer. In this case, if they are careful, they can use the buffer as an extra dose.

Irish Stones

Deleted User wrote: »

You obviously know little about the pharma industry. What is actually in the vial is probably the least expensive part of the whole process

I know that I followed the path of an experimental treatment for a pet using an unregistered and unapproved drug sold on the black market.
The vials were the same shape and look of this vaccine's, and sold as 5 ml, but at the end they were only 4.2-4.3 ml, all of them. This led to the consequence that more vials than we had planned were needed.
This is my experience with 5 ml vials from the pharma industry.

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

I know that I followed the path of an experimental treatment for a pet using an unregistered and unapproved drug sold on the black market.
The vials were the same shape and look of this vaccine's, and sold as 5 ml, but at the end they were only 4.2-4.3 ml, all of them. This led to the consequence that more vials than we had planned were needed.
This is my experience with 5 ml vials from the pharma industry.

An unapproved pet treatment on the black market? And you say it’s the pharma industry and not the black market that is to blame? Surely this is a pisstake?

Irish Stones

Deleted User wrote: »

An unapproved pet treatment on the black market? And you say it’s the pharma industry and not the black market that is to blame? Surely this is a pisstake?

It's a widely used drug for a viral disease, it's world wide known for those who are in the field, even vets advise pet owners on its use. There are lots of medical articles on veterinarian websites, journals, and reports on this drug. The trials have been conducted for years, results are public and promising.
The only issue is that it hasn't been approved yet for reasons that escape me, but I think they are well known to those who wants to investigate.
It's on the black market because it's waiting for the approval, not because it's being manufactured in the shed of a house.
But the vials do not contain what it's written on the label.

Another case is a powdered supplement for human use I have at home. Most sachets have a slightly lower amount of powder in them, weighed on a precision scale.

These are a few of my experiences.

But if Pfizer has thought to add an extra volume of vaccine in their vials to compensate for any possible wastage during the administration, well, I'm glad they did.

CrabRevolution

lbj666 wrote: »

They are doing 7 days a week, Donnelly said it today

I won't trawl through my pile of magazines but there's a Viz strip out there where the main character is a young inventor and an old man comes to him complaining that he lives in a perfectly quaint English village with polite children and old fashioned bobbies keeping the place safe, they all love ale and the Queen etc. The problem is that he has nothing to enrage him and inspire him to write letters to the Daily Mail, which is all he has to live for.

In response our young inventor creates the offend-o-matic which starts praising the EU, teaching gay sex education to toddlers and banning roast beef; infuriating and energising the old man, to his delight.

This thread really reminds me of that comic, with posters here inventing baseless bad news ("The HSE only plan on vaccinating one person a month and union reps are first in line") and then whipping themselves up into a rage in response to the story that they just fabricated.

This is jumped on by a few posters who seem to crave bad news before someone posts a link or news story proving it to be total BS. Then a few posts later someone will post another outrageous sounding lie and whip up the rage again.

odyssey06

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I won't trawl through my pile of magazines but there's a Viz strip out there where the main character is a young inventor and an old man comes to him complaining that he lives in a perfectly quaint English village with polite children and old fashioned bobbies keeping the place safe, they all love ale and the Queen etc. The problem is that he has nothing to enrage him and inspire him to write letters to the Daily Mail, which is all he has to live for.

In response our young inventor creates the offend-o-matic which starts praising the EU, teaching gay sex education to toddlers and banning roast beef; infuriating and energising the old man, to his delight.

This thread really reminds me of that comic, with posters here inventing baseless bad news ("The HSE only plan on vaccinating one person a month and union reps are first in line") and then whipping themselves up into a rage in response to the story that they just fabricated.

This is jumped on by a few posters who seem to crave bad news before someone posts a link or news story proving it to be total BS. Then a few posts later someone will post another outrageous sounding lie and whip up the rage again.

According to documents sent to nursing homes prior to Christmas, which laid out the vaccination programme due to start on January 11, vaccination teams will work on a ‘typical day’ schedule based on an assumed 39-hour week.

https://extra.ie/2020/12/29/news/irish-news/9am-to-5pm-jab-roll-out

Bobeagleburger

Be interesting to see if airlines want proof of a vaccination before traveling.

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

It's a widely used drug for a viral disease, it's world wide known for those who are in the field, even vets advise pet owners on its use. There are lots of medical articles on veterinarian websites, journals, and reports on this drug. The trials have been conducted for years, results are public and promising.
The only issue is that it hasn't been approved yet for reasons that escape me, but I think they are well known to those who wants to investigate.
It's on the black market because it's waiting for the approval, not because it's being manufactured in the shed of a house.
But the vials do not contain what it's written on the label.

Another case is a powdered supplement for human use I have at home. Most sachets have a slightly lower amount of powder in them, weighed on a precision scale.

These are a few of my experiences.

But if Pfizer has thought to add an extra volume of vaccine in their vials to compensate for any possible wastage during the administration, well, I'm glad they did.

Regulatory bodies do not take kindly at all to under issuing of active ingredient. On your 5ml vial, was all material recoverable? If it was a single dose, the 5ml probably included the required overage, as liquid is not 100% recoverable using a syringe from a vial.

There is also a massive black market in counterfeit medication. Originating in China, but Italy is the main transit point in Europe.

On the sachets - all material is not recoverable from a sachet and the fill quantity is likely the volume required to ensure an effective dose while allowing for wastage.

Irish Stones

Deleted User wrote: »

Regulatory bodies do not take kindly at all to under issuing of active ingredient. On your 5ml vial, was all material recoverable? If it was a single dose, the 5ml probably included the required overage, as liquid is not 100% recoverable using a syringe from a vial.

There is also a massive black market in counterfeit medication. Originating in China, but Italy is the main transit point in Europe.

On the sachets - all material is not recoverable from a sachet and the fill quantity is likely the volume required to ensure an effective dose while allowing for wastage.

Yes, all the content in the vial was recoverable. Till the last drop.
And no, it wasn't a single dose, it had to be administered according the pet's weight. We used professional syringes and we were very careful (because of the high cost of the drug). The dose was 1.2 ml each administration, so we were sure to recover 4 doses from a vial, with the extra 0.2 ml to be used for the next dose from a new vial, but we were always a bit short.
I can go wrong once or twice, not every time.

We also thought of a counterfeit product, but it came through a channel that had provided the same drug to other patients who had fantastic results (it wasn't our case, though).

Well, it was just to discuss about the promised volume of a vial, it wasn't my intention to derail the thread to a different topic. Sorry.

Micky 32

6 wrote: »

Be interesting to see if airlines want proof of a vaccination before traveling.

It won’t be the airlines. It will be the entry in to some countries that will be looking for proof. I’d say the USA could probably be one looking for proof, for a while at least.

Bobeagleburger

Micky 32 wrote: »

It won’t be the airlines. It will be the entry in to some countries that will be looking for proof. I’d say the USA could probably be one looking for proof, for a while at least.

Yeah, good point.

It'll focus the minds on some anti-vaxxers if they can't get abroad on holidays I'd imagine.

Irish Stones

Irish Stones wrote: »

Yes, all the content in the vial was recoverable. Till the last drop.
And no, it wasn't a single dose, it had to be administered according the pet's weight. We used professional syringes and we were very careful (because of the high cost of the drug). The dose was 1.2 ml each administration, so we were sure to recover 4 doses from a vial, with the extra 0.2 ml to be used for the next dose from a new vial, but we were always a bit short.
I can go wrong once or twice, not every time.

We also thought of a counterfeit product, but it came through a channel that had provided the same drug to other patients who had fantastic results (it wasn't our case, though).

Well, it was just to discuss about the promised volume of a vial, it wasn't my intention to derail the thread to a different topic. Sorry.

It is important to the discussion on the vaccine vials however. The consequences for a manufacturing deliberately under filling or adulterating a vial to save on active ingredient are severe enough not to be worth the risk. Active Pharmaceutical Ingredient accountability is a basic requirement and the manufacturer must be also to account for material in the finished process and wastage in the manufacturing process. While Pfizer/BioNtech may label each vial as 5 doses, you can be certain they know that they are filled with enough to deliver 6. They just can’t guarantee that there will be enough for 6 due to variation in dispensing

Water John

Kamala Harris gets the Moderna vaccine;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/29/kamala-harris-gets-first-dose-covid-vaccine

Margaret Keenan the first person to get the approved Pfizer vaccine, got her second dose today.

greengrass88

Micky 32 wrote: »

It won’t be the airlines. It will be the entry in to some countries that will be looking for proof. I’d say the USA could probably be one looking for proof, for a while at least.

I wonder if countries are going to bring this in when they will actually do it? For instance let's say that lots of people over europe are vaccinated by May 21 and the pandemic has been brought under control, (deaths very low, elderly, vulnerable and health care workers vaccinated, hospital admissions down) but I havent been vaccinated as I'm a 20 or 30 something and will be last to get...could I travel before I've been given the chance to get the vaccine?

greengrass88

greengrass88 wrote: »

I wonder if countries are going to bring this in when they will actually do it? For instance let's say that lots of people over europe are vaccinated by May 21 and the pandemic has been brought under control, (deaths very low, elderly, vulnerable and health care workers vaccinated, hospital admissions down) but I havent been vaccinated as I'm a 20 or 30 something and will be last to get...could I travel before I've been given the chance to get the vaccine?

I would say countries that have achieved that level of control with vulnerable populations vaccinated will not require certs from people from countries with similar levels of control