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Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam
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RandomName2 wrote: »I don't know the details exactly, but there will definitely be a helipad. (Incidentally, if nothing else, the design of the building is quite nice)
The Coastguard Helicopter is apparently too big to land on the planned helipad. This shouldn't be too big an issue, but if hospital transfer helicopters cannot land that's pretty disastrous.
Most transfers are done by the Air Corps right? Coast Guard sometimes fill in but most of their flights would be emergency cases while transfers to the NCH would be planned in advance.0 -
It would be alot cheaper to build it in dublin 15 or tallaght, the location in the city centre is crowded, eg it will be expensive to build parking space for visitors and staff.
land is cheap in tallaght vs city centre .
it could be sited next to a motorway in tallaght or blanchardstown,
and this hospital will have parents travelling from all over the country.
big building projects tend to get more expensive,
eg the new airport in germany is way over budget.
we have a large shortage of building workers in ireland for the work that has to be done every year
Not sure that there is much free land near the motorway going cheap in Tallaght or Blanch, but regardless, not everyone drives, so planning facilities like this on the assumption that everyone has a car tends not work out well.BrianBoru00 wrote: »The report was compiled by (an albeit wide range of ) civil servants who aren't renowned for daring and ambitious plans.
And even with those criticisms I could understand the logic behind selecting St. James but for the subsequent dramatic and seemingly never ending escalation in costs which is so pervasive in the public service.
Not really civil servants in fairness - chaired by a private sector consultant, lots of medics, some international members0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »I can't upload the report.
People should read it.
It's really an exercise is publicspeak. The considerations given weight were rather ridiculous. I read it years ago and was seething.
He's a psychologist who was a mate of Ends Kenny. He was not qualified to put such a report together and it shows.
Here's a simple analysis extract.
https://www.jackandjill.ie/the-national-childrens-hospital-dolphin-report/
This hospital should have been built in Connolly. Was a no brainier.
A psychologist who worked in the Children's Hospital in Temple St. But have a look at the qualifications of the other members of your group and let us know what particular skills you reckon were missing from the group.Membership and biographies of Review Group to consider the decision of an Bord Pleanála to refuse planning permission for the National Paediatric Hospital
Dr Frank Dolphin (Chair)
Frank Dolphin MA. PhD. AFBPsS. C.Psychol. FMII.
A native of Birr, Co Offaly, Dr Frank Dolphin is the chairman of Rigney Dolphin, a successful services business with centres in Waterford and Derry.
He attended UCD, where he completed a PhD in Psychology. Dr Dolphin worked as a clinical research psychologist at the Children’s University Hospital, Temple Street and later as consulting Psychologist to St Joseph’s Clonmel, working with children in residential care. He lectured at Trinity College Dublin and in Waterford Institute of Technology in Psychology and Consumer Behaviour.
Dr Dolphin is a Registered Psychologist with the Psychological Society of Ireland a Fellow of the Marketing Institute and an Associate Fellow of the British Psychological Society.
In 1990 he established Rigney Dolphin initially providing strategic change and HR consultancy services to multinational companies. The company grew to provide a range of Business Process Outsourcing services for companies in the public and private and health sectors. It was one of the first companies to receive the Deloitte ‘Best Managed Company’ Award in 2008 and received the award for four consecutive years.
In August 2010 the Minister for Health and Children appointed him Chairman of the Health Service Executive. In December 2011 he stepped down as chairman.
He is a member of the Board of Governors of Waterford Institute of Technology. He is a former Chairman of The Children’s University Hospital, Temple St., and served on the Board of Governors of the Mater Hospital. He is also a former President of Waterford Chamber of Commerce.
Mr Simon Clear B.A. Dip. T.P. MIPI , Town Planner
Simon holds a degree in Geography and Economics and is a qualified Town Planner with 35 years professional planning experience, particularly in the area of development assessment and appraisal and is a Corporate Member of the Irish Planning Institute.
He has held planning posts with the State Planning Authority of South Australia, Kildare County Council, Dun Laoghaire Corporation, Dublin County Council and An Bord Pleanála.
As a Senior Inspector with An Bord Pleanála from 1988 to 1999 he encountered proposals for the entire range and scale of housing, industrial, business and other developments. He has considerable experience in handling public hearings, legal and strategic, planning and development issues at the highest level.
Simon has particular expertise in retail planning strategy and was a member of the Government Steering Group responsible for direction of the preparation of the Retail Planning Guidelines. He has assessed or prepared a number of the major retail proposals throughout the country and has assisted local authorities and Shannon Development in the assessment of planning applications for retail, tourism and industrial development projects. As part of multi-disciplinary teams, he has been engaged in the preparation of statutory Town Plans, Local Areas Plans, public / private partnership Action Plans, Masterplans, EIS preparation; the joint Cork CIty and County Retail Strategies, Housing Strategy and National Roads projects.
Simon Clear acted as Extern Examiner for DIT on the graduate and master level courses in sustainable planning and environment for a number of years and has been engaged to provide high level peer review of EIS and SEA for several planning authorities.
Mr Michael Collins Senior Architect ;
Michael Collins founded the practice (MCA) in 1988. He qualified as an architect in the College of Technology Bolton Street in 1967, having previously studied mechanical engineering. Through his interest in building technology generally, Michael has developed a reputation for inventive and practical solutions which in turn has resulted in a large number of projects where high technical ability is required. He has completed complex hospital projects, sound recording and television studios as well as stud farms and a large number of office buildings.
Michael has been very active in his profession and has been elected to various Government bodies and agencies including the Building Regulations Advisory Body, the Multi-Storey Buildings Task Force, the Fire Services Council and the Construction Industry Strategic Review Committee. He was an active member of the Irish Architectural Archive, the International Union of Architects and Architect's Council of Europe. He has been an active member of the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland for most of his career and has served on various committees and on Council. He was elected RIAI President for 1986/87.
Mr John Martin, Senior Planner
Mr Martin is a Senior Planner with many years experience. He is recently retired.
Principal Planning Adviser, Dept. of the Environment, Community and Local Government (2002 – 2011):
Main functions included:
· Advising on new legislation, particularly the 2010 Planning Act
· Preparation of planning guidelines for local authorities
· Liaison with regional and local authorities, particularly in Dublin and Cork
· Implementation of EU Directives
Deputy City Planner, Dublin City Council (1994 – 2001):
· Responsible for overall management of up to 4,500 planning applications p.a.
· Involved with major urban regeneration projects in Temple Bar, Smithfield, and Dublin docklands
· Helped establish the Digital Hub project in the Liberties
Senior Planner, Dun Laoghaire (1987 – 1994):
· Dealt with redevelopment of 70-acre sites at St. Helen’s, Booterstown and Carysfort College, Blackrock
· Dealt with development of major projects in Dun Laoghaire (Pavilion and Bloomfields sites)
· Member of Review Group which recommended marina development in Dun Laoghaire Harbour
Senior Inspector, An Bord Pleanála (1984 – 1987):
· Responsible for reporting on planning appeals in Cos. Meath and Monaghan
Professor Owen Smith
Professor Owen Patrick Smith
MA, MB, BA Mod.(Biochem.), FRCPCH, FRCPI, FFpathRCPI, FRCPEdin, FRCPLon, FRCP Glasg, FRCPath, DHMSA, Hon FTCD
Professor of Haematology , The University of Dublin, Trinity College Dublin, Ireland
Consultant Paediatric Haematologist, Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital,, Crumlin, Dublin 12,
Professor Smith is a Consultant Paediatric Haematologist at Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital Dublin, and is Professor of Childhood Blood Disorders at the University of Dublin, Trinity College Dublin. Since returning from postgraduate training at Great Ormond Street Children’s Hospital, London (5 years) in the early 1990’s he has devoted the last twenty years of his career to caring for neonates, children and adolescents with cancer and blood disorders in terms of basic science, clinical research and patient care.
The co-author of more than 300 research original articles, letters, books, book chapters and papers, Professor Smith is a Fellow of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. Royal College of Pathologists, and the Royal College of Physicians of Dublin, London, Glasgow, Edinburgh. He is a member of numerous associations and societies, including; the Medical Research Council Childhood Leukaemia Working Party, the International Berlin Frankfurt Munster Study Group for Childhood Leukaemia, the United Kingdom Haemophilia Centre Directors Organisation, the European Paediatric Network for Haemophilia Management, the United Kingdom Children’s Cancer Group, the Paediatric Haematology Forum of the British Society of Haematology, and the European Paediatric Network for Severe Congenital Neutropenia.
Professor Smith conducts knowledge exchange activities through his extensive record of invited talks at international meetings. He has served as an expert on many national and international advisory panels for various paediatric disease groups. He plays a leadership role in national and international committees which formulate best practice guidelines for delivering care to children and adolescents with rare disease, especially in the assessment / treatment of childhood and adolescent haematological malignancies. He is an international advocate for children with rare diseases and for expanded access to expensive drugs.
In 2001, he was appointed project director to build the National Paediatric Haematology & Oncology Centre (NPHOC) at Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital, Crumlin (OLCH), the only facility in Ireland for the assessment and treatment of children and adolescents with cancer and blood disorders. The NPHOC Child Healthcare Programme has been the single biggest development in Irish Paediatrics with approximately 100 new child health-care professionals being employed and a new state-of-the-art facility being built at OLCH. The programme was completed in September 2006. He continues to play a leadership role within the NPHOC and have been instrumental in funding expansion of Consultant, junior medical & nurse staffing, and re-configuring roles and services within this internationally renowned department.
In 2009 the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and its project team invited him to become a consultant stakeholder in the planning of the new Children’s Hospital of Ireland with particular emphasis on becoming an active member of their model of care committee.
Professor Smith was awarded the Graves Medal by the Royal Academy of Medicine and Health Research Board in 2001 for his research into novel therapeutic strategies in meningococcal sepsis that had received international acclaim. In 2006, Professor Smith was awarded the St Luke’s Medal by the Royal Academy of Medicine and St Luke’s Hospital for his work on improving outcomes in adolescent cancers with specific reference to the haematological malignancies.
He was admitted to Honorary Fellowship of Trinity College Dublin (the oldest and most valued tradition of the University) in 2009.
Prof Jonathan Hourihane
Prof Jonathan Hourihane
PhD Med, DR, FELLOWSHIP,MB,DM,MRCPI, FRCPCH
Profesor Jonathan Hourihane has been Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health in University College Cork, Ireland since 2005. He graduated from Trinity College Dublin in 1987. He obtained his Doctorate in Medicine from the University of Southampton in 1996, for his thesis entitled “Clinical and immunological features of peanut allergy”. He achieved FRCPCH in 2005, FRCPI in 2008 and FAAAAI in 2011. He is co-PI of the BASELINE birth cohort study (www.baselinestudy.net.).He is Secretary of the Irish Association of Allergy and Immunology. He is a board member of Molecular Medicine Ireland (www.MolecularMedicineIreland.ie).
Prof B. G. Loftus (Brendan Gerard Loftus)
Prof B. G. Loftus (Brendan Gerard Loftus)
MB, BAO, B.Ch, DCH, MRCPI, MD, FRCPI, FRCPCH, JCHMT
Prof Loftus is Dean of the College of Medicine, Nursing & Health Sciences at NUI Galway. He is also a consultant paediatrician and has worked as Prof of Paediatrics at NUI Galway. He has published extensively in the area of paediatric medicine and is a member of a number of Learned Societies:- Irish Paediatric Association, British Paediatric Association, Irish Perinatal Society, Paediatric Research Society, European Paediatric Respiratory Society, Irish Thoracic Society, European Respiratory Society, Irish and American Paediatric Society. He has been appointed to a number of public bodies and organisations and is currently vice-Dean of the Faculty of Paediatrics of the RCPI.
Professor Clodagh O’Gorman MB BCH BAO MRCPI MSc
Professor O’Gorman is Professor of Paediatrics at the University of Limerick and Consultant Paediatrician at the HSE Mid-Western Regional Hospital, Limerick
Professor O’Gorman’s research interests include: paediatric obesity, paediatric diabetes and paediatric endocrine disorders. Prof O’Gorman is a member of the RCPI. She graduated from Galway University and completed her paediatric training in Ireland and Toronto.
Louise Shepherd MBA MA CPFA – Chief Executive, Alder Hey Children’s NHS Trust
Ms Shepherd joined Alder Hey on 10th March 2008 from Liverpool Women’s NHS Trust where as Chief Executive she led it to Foundation Trust status, the first in Merseyside. Formerly deputy Chief Executive and finance Director at the Countess of Chester NHS Trust for five and a half years Louise first joined the health service in 1993 as Director of business development at Birmingham Heartlands and Solihull
NHS Trust.
A Cambridge University graduate in 1985, Ms Shepherd trained as an accountant in local government before spending four years with KPMG in Birmingham as a financial and management consultant to the public sector.
Ms Shepherd is very active in Liverpool outside of the health service, in particular as vice chair of the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Society.
Trust Committee Membership and Role:
· Member of the Clinical Quality Assurance Committee
· Member of the Resources and Business Development Committee
· Attendee of the Audit Committee
· Attendee of Transformation Committee0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »A psychologist who worked in the Children's Hospital in Temple St. But have a look at the qualifications of the other members of your group and let us know what particular skills you reckon were missing from the group.
It's quite clear these were simply names to gloss the report.
They didn't write or compile the report.
Read the report. It's fairly simplistic.
Pointing to someone's qualifications is pointless. These are people who were paid consultant fees to put their name on the report. Doesn't mean they participated beyond cashing a cheque.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »It's quite clear these were simply names to gloss the report.
They didn't write or compile the report.
Read the report. It's fairly simplistic.
Pointing to someone's qualifications is pointless. These are people who were paid consultant fees to put their name on the report. Doesn't mean they participated beyond cashing a cheque.
That's a very, very serious allegation to be making about very reputable professionals.
Why do you think people at the top of their game like this would allow their reputation to be associated with making bad decisions? No one-off consultant fees would compensate for that.
What fees were paid to the members of this group, btw?0 -
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Mr. Incognito wrote: »It's quite clear these were simply names to gloss the report.
They didn't write or compile the report.
Read the report. It's fairly simplistic.
Pointing to someone's qualifications is pointless. These are people who were paid consultant fees to put their name on the report. Doesn't mean they participated beyond cashing a cheque.
You say the report is simplistic, whereas you link to a website that puts up an utterly absurd table comparing SJH to Connolly where they manage to list 4 different variations of "driving to it is difficult" at the top and throw in a mild reference to clinical outcomes being better in a co-located hospital as an almost afterthought.
You think all of these doctors willingly put their name on a report they thought flawed just for some extra cash? While also happily being complicit in a (by their view) sub-standard children's hospital being built? That is a pretty severe and utterly unfounded allegation.0 -
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/committee_of_public_accounts/submissions/2019/2019-02-14_correspondence-pamela-carter-principal-officer-department-of-health-32r001952-pac_en.pdf
Heres some information. Page 35 lessons learnt is my favorite. Talk to an Board pleannala. Well, 1.1 million in legal advice fees well spent then.
The problem is the civil service in this country is staffed by lazy morons who are incompetent and the professionals are gouging them.
Dublin Port Tunnel.
Roads infrastructure
Children’s hospital
The Dail Printer
We have scandal after scandal of wasted taxpayers money and no accountability for inexperience and arrogance. Thats a dangerous cocktail. Nothing will change until we appoint external consultants to deal with procurement and management.
The civil service needs to be abolished0 -
You say the report is simplistic, whereas you link to a website that puts up an utterly absurd table comparing SJH to Connolly where they manage to list 4 different variations of "driving to it is difficult" at the top and throw in a mild reference to clinical outcomes being better in a co-located hospital as an almost afterthought.b
You think all of these doctors willingly put their name on a report they thought flawed just for some extra cash? While also happily being complicit in a (by their view) sub-standard children's hospital being built? That is a pretty severe and utterly unfounded allegation.
I agree. The table is absurd. Its also lifted directly from the Dolphin report which clearly you haven't bothered to read.
http://www.newchildrenshospital.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Dolphin_Group_Report-1.pdf
The tables kick off around around page 48
Theres very very little actual medical data in the report. Its written like a transition year student put it together0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »I agree. The table is absurd. Its also lifted directly from the Dolphin report which clearly you haven't bothered to read.
http://www.newchildrenshospital.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Dolphin_Group_Report-1.pdf
The tables kick off around around page 48
Theres very very little actual medical data in the report. Its written like a transition year student put it together
Yes I have read it. I am more than happy for you to attempt to tell me what page the table is "lifted directly" from.
For ease of everyone else I can tell the answer is it isn't. The tables in the Dolphin report are ordered, very deliberately, as below:
1. Co-located with adult teaching hospital
2. Critical mass of sub-specialist care
3. Opportunities for transitional adolescent service
4. Extent of consultant linkages with Dublin children’s hospitals
5. Depth and breadth of clinical and academic research
6. Site suitability
7. Access
8. Planning and design
9. Project delivery / timelines
10. Value for money
Because the first 5 items are considered the most relevant for clinical outcomes.
The table on that stupid website has decided to completely ignore points 2-5. Has put the last two topics as co-location (considered the most important by the Dolphin report but please explain why they are wrong?) and public transport and instead has converted the "access" column into 5 separate topics, 4 of which are all solely related to private car transport and put them all at the top and its put the public transport related one to the very bottom.
It is literally considering the ability to drive to the building as by far the most important aspect of the children's hospital which is taking car-centric design to a pretty ridiculous level.0 -
Incidentally I have also read the Bristol Inquiry into paediatric cardiac surgery in UK (2001) which was one of a number of reports that highlighted the desire for co-location with a adult tertiary hospital. Have you?
Because the Dolphin report takes the international standard for co-location (and tri-location if possible) as a given and moves on from there. It is not trying to re-create that research.0 -
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Yes I have read it. I am more than happy for you to attempt to tell me what page the table is "lifted directly" from.
For ease of everyone else I can tell the answer is it isn't. The tables in the Dolphin report are ordered, very deliberately, as below:
1. Co-located with adult teaching hospital
2. Critical mass of sub-specialist care
3. Opportunities for transitional adolescent service
4. Extent of consultant linkages with Dublin children’s hospitals
5. Depth and breadth of clinical and academic research
6. Site suitability
7. Access
8. Planning and design
9. Project delivery / timelines
10. Value for money
Because the first 5 items are considered the most relevant for clinical outcomes.
The table on that stupid website has decided to completely ignore points 2-5. Has put the last two topics as co-location (considered the most important by the Dolphin report but please explain why they are wrong?) and public transport and instead has converted the "access" column into 5 separate topics, 4 of which are all solely related to private car transport and put them all at the top and its put the public transport related one to the very bottom.
It is literally considering the ability to drive to the building as by far the most important aspect of the children's hospital which is taking car-centric design to a pretty ridiculous level.
Wow what a burn!0 -
These sort of world class facilities cost A LOT of money.
The price was under estimated.
Everyone will forget all this when it opens just like they did the tunnel and everything else.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/committee_of_public_accounts/submissions/2019/2019-02-14_correspondence-pamela-carter-principal-officer-department-of-health-32r001952-pac_en.pdf
Heres some information. Page 35 lessons learnt is my favorite. Talk to an Board pleannala. Well, 1.1 million in legal advice fees well spent then.
The problem is the civil service in this country is staffed by lazy morons who are incompetent and the professionals are gouging them.
Dublin Port Tunnel.
Roads infrastructure
Children’s hospital
The Dail Printer
We have scandal after scandal of wasted taxpayers money and no accountability for inexperience and arrogance. Thats a dangerous cocktail. Nothing will change until we appoint external consultants to deal with procurement and management.
The civil service needs to be abolished
Dublin Port Tunnel was early naughties, right? How many major infrastructural projects have been completed over that time timescale, with no fuss, no drama, no breathless headlines from Newstalk and others, compared to the four that you mention.
Just curious, what happens after you abolish the civil service. How does the implementation of government policy proceed?
And you may have missed a few important questions here.0 -
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they'll stick something on that connolly site eventually. it might even be something other than housing. d15 has a bigger population than Cork.
blanch alone is over 75,000 population. the singapore of the m50.0 -
they'll stick something on that connolly site eventually. it might even be something other than housing. d15 has a bigger population than Cork.
blanch alone is over 75,000 population. the singapore of the m50.
The thing is, there isn't even a Connolly "site". To the west of Connolly is a park and to the east is the National Sports Campus. You would have to demolish a lot of the buildings at Connolly and reorganise the whole thing to get a site as big as that at James's on Connolly lands. Alternatively, to get a site as big as that at James's, you would have to lose a large chunk of the National Cross Country Track. Building the NCH there would likely see it being built on a similar footprint to that at James's and similarly tall. There certainly isn't space for some vast sprawling hospital with lots of surface car parking there, nevermind providing facilities for all the other specialist services which some want relocated from James's.
And going back to helicopters (which some seem to think is a stick with which to beat NCH despite it having a helipad), would you even to able to have helicopters land at Connolly regularly given it is on the flight path out of Dublin Airport?0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »Not sure that there is much free land near the motorway going cheap in Tallaght or Blanch, but regardless, not everyone drives, so planning facilities like this on the assumption that everyone has a car tends not work out well.
Not really civil servants in fairness - chaired by a private sector consultant, lots of medics, some international members
A developer offered land to the state at Newlands Cross for nothing0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »The thing is, there isn't even a Connolly "site". To the west of Connolly is a park and to the east is the National Sports Campus. You would have to demolish a lot of the buildings at Connolly and reorganise the whole thing to get a site as big as that at James's on Connolly lands. Alternatively, to get a site as big as that at James's, you would have to lose a large chunk of the National Cross Country Track. Building the NCH there would likely see it being built on a similar footprint to that at James's and similarly tall. There certainly isn't space for some vast sprawling hospital with lots of surface car parking there, nevermind providing facilities for all the other specialist services which some want relocated from James's.
And going back to helicopters (which some seem to think is a stick with which to beat NCH despite it having a helipad), would you even to able to have helicopters land at Connolly regularly given it is on the flight path out of Dublin Airport?
I dont know about that.
Dont have accesd to maps right now but I recall a nice big space.
And even if the cross country track had to move so be it, a loop if tarmac. No biggy.
Atc wouldnt have a problem with moving a helicopter around.
Anyhoo...something will go there if not the hospital.0 -
SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »A developer offered land to the state at Newlands Cross for nothing
but regardless, not everyone drives, so planning facilities like this on the assumption that everyone has a car tends not work out well.0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »but regardless, not everyone drives, so planning facilities like this on the assumption that everyone has a car tends not work out well.
Public Transport. Bus and Luas run close to Newlands Cross. Have a busconnects running to ParkWest for Intercity/Suburban rail.0 -
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Northernlily wrote: »Public Transport. Bus and Luas run close to Newlands Cross. Have a busconnects running to ParkWest for Intercity/Suburban rail.
It's about 2km from Newlands Cross to Belgard Luas stop. And it's a much longer journey by Luas to connect from mainline rail.0 -
I dont know about that.
Dont have accesd to maps right now but I recall a nice big space.
And even if the cross country track had to move so be it, a loop if tarmac. No biggy.
Atc wouldnt have a problem with moving a helicopter around.
Anyhoo...something will go there if not the hospital.
There are no spaces anything close to the footprint of the NCH on Connolly grounds. You could demolish several buildings, surface car parks and internal roads to create a large enough space but you would still be building the same height and mass as the under construction NCH so no real savings there. See Table 2: Development Opportunities on page 7 here. You would have to develop Sites 1 - 8 developed at maximum Plot Ratio to get to the 125,000sq.m of the current NCH + expansion, the majority of the Connolly site.
Part of the National Cross Country Track could be taken for a larger site but that would see it 200m from the existing Connolly Hospital building and St Francis Hospice in between. With either utilising existing Connolly lands or using National Sports Campus lands, you still have a huge deficit of medical services compared to James's and would have enormous costs with building new buildings to house it all (for which there is little space) and then moving it.
A new maternity hospital is intended to be built at Connolly to replace the Rotunda, it will be interesting to see where that gets sited and what gets demolished. There certainly isn't a vacant site sitting there to be used for something. The National Cross Country Track was only developed a few years ago as part of the National Sports Campus so whatever case my have existed for using some of it for the NCH, there is no chance it will be used for something else for a long, long time.0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »There are no spaces anything close to the footprint of the NCH on Connolly grounds.
I never said there was, captain strawman.
I said there was land for something else. My exact words being "they'll stick something on that connolly site eventually. it might even be something other than housing."
Now that I have google earth open I can see a big open field between the shtty cross county track thats of zero importance, and its roughly 500m by 500m, right beside the m50, and not a stones throw from junction 16 where developers planned to build Ireland highest building.
If you know the area you'll know that they sandwich housing/shops in to any available space they can get, like a fat girl getting into last years jeans. (see lidl castleknock, aldi clonsilla)
If its the empty pointless field that it looks to be, right in that prime location then they most certainly will build something there.
As for the cross country track, thats an additional 300 x 300 meters. they can go find a roundabout.0 -
I never said there was, captain strawman.
I said there was land for something else. My exact words being "they'll stick something on that connolly site eventually. it might even be something other than housing."
Now that I have google earth open I can see a big open field between the shtty cross county track thats of zero importance, and its roughly 500m by 500m, right beside the m50, and not a stones throw from junction 16 where developers planned to build Ireland highest building.
If you know the area you'll know that they sandwich housing/shops in to any available space they can get, like a fat girl getting into last years jeans. (see lidl castleknock, aldi clonsilla)
If its the empty pointless field that it looks to be, right in that prime location then they most certainly will build something there.
As for the cross country track, thats an additional 300 x 300 meters. they can go find a roundabout.
When you say "they'll stick something on that connolly site" and "they most certainly will build something there", who is the "they" you refer to?
The owners of that land is the Irish state and they did build something on that land, the National Cross Country Track as part of the wider National Sports Campus. This was done within the time that same state has wanted to develop a National Children's Hospital. They certainly won't be building anything else there for a long time, possibly never. So again, there isn't a site, there was a site but it was allocated a purpose and that has been built.
In an alternative reality, it may have been possible to build the NCH on that land but it would go against all the reports recommending tri-location. It would be a vastly inferior hospital to that at James's as it would have nothing like the same level of services on site. Moving everything from James's to there would cost multiples of what the NCH alone is costing.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »
Here's a simple analysis extract.
https://www.jackandjill.ie/the-national-childrens-hospital-dolphin-report/
This hospital should have been built in Connolly. Was a no brainier.
This deserves more thanks.0 -
I always thought just off the m50 at tallaght would suit.
Tallaght is a university hospital, has the luas, and just off the motorway which is easy access for waterford, cork and limerick cities, and also a large portion of rural ireland.
More space there too0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »When you say "they'll stick something on that connolly site" and "they most certainly will build something there", who is the "they" you refer to?
The owners of that land is the Irish state and they did build something on that land, the National Cross Country Track as part of the wider National Sports Campus. This was done within the time that same state has wanted to develop a National Children's Hospital. They certainly won't be building anything else there for a long time, possibly never. So again, there isn't a site, there was a site but it was allocated a purpose and that has been built.
In an alternative reality, it may have been possible to build the NCH on that land but it would go against all the reports recommending tri-location. It would be a vastly inferior hospital to that at James's as it would have nothing like the same level of services on site. Moving everything from James's to there would cost multiples of what the NCH alone is costing.
What the actual fck.
I mean I went out of my way to say I wasnt refering to a hospital.
"They" is developers and/or the owner of that large site between the hospital and the cross country track.
Strawmanned into this crap for an off the cuff true comment.
Tell you what, Ill take it back and you can leave me out of it.
Nobody will ever develop the big open site on the edge of one of Dublins biggest suburbs and immediately adjacent to the m50.0 -
What the actual fck.
I mean I went out of my way to say I wasnt refering to a hospital.
"They" is developers and/or the owner of that large site between the hospital and the cross country track.
Strawmanned into this crap for an off the cuff true comment.
Tell you what, Ill take it back and you can leave me out of it.
Nobody will ever develop the big open site on the edge of one of Dublins biggest suburbs and immediately adjacent to the m50.
Again, there is only state owned lands here. The state decided to develop the national Sports Campus on the Abbottstown lands, there are no other developers and/or the owners of other lands. In a parallel universe, the state could have decided to develop the NCH on some of those lands but it would mean locating it with a lower level of hospital and being remote from many of the specialist services requiring transferring patients for treatment. And in that parallel universe they could have also decided to relocate those services to Connolly but that would have required more lands and a hell of a lot more cost and delays. There are no benefits to doing this, it might be a bit cheaper to build at Connolly but then you have an inferior hospital, to move so much specialist services to Connolly would have cost multiples of what it is costing at James's. Connolly just isn't a specialist enough hospital for co-locating the NCH with it.0 -
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I always thought just off the m50 at tallaght would suit.
Tallaght is a university hospital, has the luas, and just off the motorway which is easy access for waterford, cork and limerick cities, and also a large portion of rural ireland.
More space there too
Not true that there is more space. See here, in existing hospital lands you could build about half the area of NCH on sites 8 and 9 or you would have to rebuild the entire hospital to get it all there. Alternatively, you would have to acquire other lands/buildings to assemble a site similar size to that at James's to build similar height/mass and have it spanning across a couple of public roads meaning minimal cost difference. Putting at Tallaght still has the same issue of deficit of facilities compared to James's requiring transferring of patients.0
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