Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

keano_afc

Simon Harris was involved. Of course its a colossal failure.

TheChizler

RandomName2 wrote: »

This deserves more thanks.

Interesting how they placed the two main points for St. James' right at the bottom of the list.

85603

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Again, there is only state owned lands here. The state decided to develop the national Sports Campus on the Abbottstown lands, there are no other developers and/or the owners of other lands. In a parallel universe, the state could have decided to develop the NCH on some of those lands but it would mean locating it with a lower level of hospital and being remote from many of the specialist services requiring transferring patients for treatment. And in that parallel universe they could have also decided to relocate those services to Connolly but that would have required more lands and a hell of a lot more cost and delays. There are no benefits to doing this, it might be a bit cheaper to build at Connolly but then you have an inferior hospital, to move so much specialist services to Connolly would have cost multiples of what it is costing at James's. Connolly just isn't a specialist enough hospital for co-locating the NCH with it.

And again it was a conciliatory comment about how if the hospital wasnt to be there then it doesnt really matter to the area since something else inevitably will be built on/adjacent to connolly, so stop your gollum like hypervigalance about the precious hospital for one second.
The land I was refering to appears to be being used for nothing in particular, possibly agriculture judging by tracks. Its certainly not being used for sports.
Somebody will build something big there. So screw your hospital.

AndrewJRenko

Stan27 wrote: »

I always thought just off the m50 at tallaght would suit.
Tallaght is a university hospital, has the luas, and just off the motorway which is easy access for waterford, cork and limerick cities, and also a large portion of rural ireland.
More space there too

I'd wonder what expertise you reckon you have on hospital location planning, over and above the national and international experts on the Dolphin Committee?

RandomName2 wrote: »

This deserves more thanks.

For cherry-picking one table from a comprehensive report? Again, I'd wonder what expertise a smallish charity like Jack and Jill have on hospital location planning, over and above the national and international experts on the Dolphin Committee?

keano_afc wrote: »

Simon Harris was involved. Of course its a colossal failure.

Not in any of the major decisions, he wasn't. The site location decision goes back several Ministers of Health before Harris, back to James O'Reilly.

Stan27

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'd wonder what expertise you reckon you have on hospital location planning, over and above the national and international experts on the Dolphin Committee?




For cherry-picking one table from a comprehensive report? Again, I'd wonder what expertise a smallish charity like Jack and Jill have on hospital location planning, over and above the national and international experts on the Dolphin Committee?


Not in any of the major decisions, he wasn't. The site location decision goes back several Ministers of Health before Harris, back to James O'Reilly.

1I dont.
2 this is a discussion forum and i just gave an opinion.

Muahahaha

The costs keep rising and rising, BAM have now put in for a further 300 million

BAM, THE PRIMARY contractor building the new National Children’s Hospital, has submitted claims for extra costs running to more than €300 million, the Oireachtas Public Accounts Committee (PAC) was told today.

And the completion date of August 2022 will be missed by around a year and a half

The Dáil’s public spending watchdog was told by the board that the main contractor is “underperforming”, stating that there is likely to be a “reset on the timelines” for the opening of the hospital.

Gunning said he could not give an exact date for the completion of the project.

At present the project is 10 months behind schedule. It was five months behind at the start of Covid last March, he said.

The contractual date for completion was August 2022, but due to the seven-week closure of construction due to Covid-19, this has been extended out by eight weeks to October 2022, said Gunning. He acknowledged that this is not a realistic date.

Fianna Fáil’s Marc MacSharry said given the dates provided by the board it could be May 2024 before the hospital is open. Sinn Féin’s Imelda Munster said it will be the most expensive children’s hospital ever built.

“By way of an example, at the end of December 2019, the contractor had progressed 8.5% of the works when it should have progressed 22% and this delay has continued to grow month on month,” Gunning said.

https://www.thejournal.ie/childrens-hospital-pac-5349555-Feb2021/

Pete_Cavan

Muahahaha wrote: »

The costs keep rising and rising, BAM have now put in for a further 300 million

BAM, THE PRIMARY contractor building the new National Children’s Hospital, has submitted claims for extra costs running to more than €300 million, the Oireachtas Public Accounts Committee (PAC) was told today.

Is it confirmed that that is €300m on top of what it was before? The quote reads like €300m in total, not on top.

bigroad

They should cut their losses now and finish whatever they can so that the building can be sold as housing and car parks offices ect.
Then move out to a greenfield near the M50 with a new contractor.

bmc58

keano_afc wrote: »

Simon Harris was involved. Of course its a colossal failure.

Will he ever be held to account for this catastrophic failure (wait and see) and huge cost to our country?I think not.

bmc58

bigroad wrote: »

They should cut their losses now and finish whatever they can so that the building can be sold as housing and car parks offices ect.
Then move out to a greenfield near the M50 with a new contractor.

They should have done that in the beginning.But Harris and Leo and other high powered consutants wanted it there?Why I could never understand.

Muahahaha

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Is it confirmed that that is €300m on top of what it was before? The quote reads like €300m in total, not on top.

What figure was it before? Either way 300m extra is a huge wedge of cash. iirc the project was costed at 1.1bn to begin with, its now up around 2.4bn and thats unlikely to be the final cost.

tara73

disgusting. the scum of the scum. BAM is probably shareholder in collaboration of one of the shadow banks Blackrock, State Street, Vanguard etc. and how they are all named. all US operating scum who hold the financial power in this world. and before someone comes here and calls it a conspiracy, better watch what you say, it's all written down in one reliable book.

Northernlily

This will hit 5bn. BAM know they are onto a good thing here.

Said it before, it would be better to cut our losses now. Its gone beyond a joke.

Sleeper12

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Which party members were involved - the party in power at the time the decision to go ahead was made? Or the party in power at the time the site was chosen? Or the party in power at the time the contract was awarded? Or the party in power at the time the decision was made to take BAM to the High Court?

Isn't the answer to the above FG?

Northernlily

Muahahaha wrote: »

What figure was it before? Either way 300m extra is a huge wedge of cash. iirc the project was costed at 1.1bn to begin with, its now up around 2.4bn and thats unlikely to be the final cost.

Costed at circa €450m to begin with.

James Brown

The question that always raises itself in such incidences is how come such savvy and cute hoors are always so neglectful and incompetent when it comes to spending other people's money? One could be forgiven for being suspicious.

saabsaab

What a mess. Why was it built in Dublin city at all? makes no sense.

Snake Plisken

Fire the project managers and the main contractors and don't pay them another cent, any politician and senior civil servants involved in this fiasco should be jailed for their incompetence.
Of course this will never happen in this corrupt little country of ours!
You could have built nearly 3 hospitals in various greenfield sites for the same price that this thing will cost in the end!

screamer

They’d be better off rather than spending time on enquiry panels to go off and overhaul the adversarial forms of contract that they insist on using when contacting companies to build for them. The prices at the start are never realistic and why? Because lowest wins. So it’s priced low to win the work and claimed to oblivion to make it viable. That’s not the contractors fault. The wages in construction are unbelievable and union mandated, providing transport is also a requirement etc. Construction is high turnover, low profit. And I’m no fan of the big contractors as they really treat subbies like crap, but the whole system of tendering and contract needs to be changed. But then, you’d need politicians who were competent to understand that, so it’ll never happen.

ForestFire

I see this in the RTE report..

"Mr Gunning said that in value terms, only 20% of the project has been completed."

Is that 20% of the original 450m or the new 2B euro figure!! (Or whatever we are up to at the moment)...


I think it's time to pull the plug on this shambles and get BAM out of the project and start from scratch.
If we keep going like this the costs will hit 3B....4B maybe??


For the Costs to rise by almost 3/4 fold surley BAM must have known that the original plans were not up to scratch....like what was missing, that could triple the costs....The roof maybe??

RTE:- "700 contractor claims have been lodged amounting to €300 million in associated costs. "

700 hundred!!.....what in gods name did they start with??...A paper mache model?

IngazZagni

ForestFire wrote: »

.


I think it's time to pull the plug on this shambles and get BAM out of the project and start from scratch.
If we keep going like this the costs will hit 3B....4B maybe??

We are long beyond the point of no return. The top floor (7th above ground, 9th in total) will be complete next month. Recent photo here.

https://twitter.com/BAMIrl_/status/1355122612775620609?s=20

piwyudo0fhn57b

interesting thread

bmc58

Northernlily wrote: »

Costed at circa €450m to begin with.

Yes.We sold our National Lottery to the Canadian Teachers Pension Fund to pay for our Childrens Hospital which was to cost around €450 mill ish.Now we are at €2 billion??? How has it come to this.Simon Harris and Leo Varadaker (and Vrad's consultant buddies) have many questions to answer.What was wrong with the greenfield site on the M50?

bigroad

IngazZagni wrote: »

We are long beyond the point of no return. The top floor (7th above ground, 9th in total) will be complete next month. Recent photo here.

https://twitter.com/BAMIrl_/status/1355122612775620609?s=20

How many apartments could you get in there ,
Would they cover the costs so far..

IngazZagni

bmc58 wrote: »

Yes.We sold our National Lottery to the Canadian Teachers Pension Fund to pay for our Childrens Hospital which was to cost around €450 mill ish.Now we are at €2 billion??? How has it come to this.Simon Harris and Leo Varadaker (and Vrad's consultant buddies) have many questions to answer.What was wrong with the greenfield site on the M50?

Please not this argument again. Lots was wrong with that idea. People seem to forget that it was healthcare industry experts that decided that this was the most appropriate location.

Co-location is vital for the future success of this hospital.

AndrewJRenko

bmc58 wrote: »

They should have done that in the beginning.But Harris and Leo and other high powered consutants wanted it there?Why I could never understand.

Did you try reading the Dolphin report which explained the importance of co-location fairly well? The location decision was made long before Harris and Leo were involved btw.

bmc58 wrote: »

Yes.We sold our National Lottery to the Canadian Teachers Pension Fund to pay for our Childrens Hospital which was to cost around €450 mill ish.Now we are at €2 billion??? How has it come to this.Simon Harris and Leo Varadaker (and Vrad's consultant buddies) have many questions to answer.What was wrong with the greenfield site on the M50?

Did you try reading the Dolphin report which explained the importance of co-location fairly well? The location decision was made long before Harris and Leo were involved btw.

Deleted User wrote: »

This is likely BAMs last large scale state project for a long time


Their submission on the dunkettle interchange job,wasnt even considered by all accounts.....sisk got it afaik

If it wan't even considered, BAM could very easily injuct the tendering body, TII presumably? Public bodies can't blacklist contractors based on previous work. If they screw up one job, they shouldn't be paid. The next job will be allocated based on the specific award criteria.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Isn't the answer to the above FG?

That's not the full answer though, is it?

12gauge dave

bmc58 wrote: »

Yes.We sold our National Lottery to the Canadian Teachers Pension Fund to pay for our Childrens Hospital which was to cost around €450 mill ish.Now we are at €2 billion??? How has it come to this.Simon Harris and Leo Varadaker (and Vrad's consultant buddies) have many questions to answer.What was wrong with the greenfield site on the M50?

The scratchcards have gone to the dogs since they took over too a complete disaster on every level.

Kivaro

bigroad wrote: »

How many apartments could you get in there ,
Would they cover the costs so far..

Maybe about 10 or 11 social housing apartments based on the current money that they are spending on them. We seem to have an awful predisposition for wasting tax payer money, and I'm talking about ludicrously wasting tax payer money. It is either corruption on a massive scale or just gross incompetence by our elected officials. Where is all this money coming from and who will be paying it back?

Sleeper12

AndrewJRenko wrote:

That's not the full answer though, is it?

It is though. They ploughed ahead building the wrong hospital in the wrong place. Most expensive hospital in the world and we haven't even gotten the final bill yet.

AndrewJRenko

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It is though. They ploughed ahead building the wrong hospital in the wrong place. Most expensive hospital in the world and we haven't even gotten the final bill yet.

It's not though, as FG were in government with other parties over that period. In fact, they were in government with pretty much every other party of any significant size except SF over that period.

And the recommendation for the location came from an group of medical and planning experts from at home and abroad. It wasn't a political decision.