Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

tom1ie

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I think the sad thing about Irish people is they don't see the hidden cost or the importance of making the place accessible for patients and recruitment. Once they could drive to the door and there's a 3 acre parking lot, that's good enough for them.

What has gone on in this instance is a disgrace regarding BAM and the costs, etc but I think people don't see how quickly Opex costs run up and how quickly they are amplified once re-locating people is involved.

The mistakes which were made were all due to giving BAM the job in the first place.

Not really.
It’s a project management failure.
There should have been finalised design drawings and a fully costed CMP before any contractor was appointed.

beauf

PhilOssophy wrote: »

100% agree.

People here don't seem to realise that building a hospital involves much more than just plonking it in a green field site in the middle of nowhere to suit car owners.

There's a tonne of logistical constraints, and number 1 being resourcing, which beauf and others seem to think aren't a problem in spite of that being the number 1 problem. There is no point having a super hospital in the middle of nowhere and it being inaccessible for anybody who doesn't have a car, and where doctors etc will just say "eh no thanks, I am not going there".

I know some people who work in Crumlin have refused to move to James's - either retired, or moved to other roles, etc. So to trivialise the HR issue associated with moving a hospital out to the middle of nowhere is extremely naïve.

No one saying its the only issue.

But LOL. I didn't realize Blanch was inaccessible only by car. I've been commuting to and from it for decades by Train. No one told me.
Its interesting that the Mater was consider accessible by train, but Blanch on the same line isn't. Similarly Portlaoise isn't a problem. But Blanch and similar are.
It seems there no problem going from Blanch to James. But there is going from James to Blanch.

I think there's a bit of selective reasoning going on.

PhilOssophy

beauf wrote: »

No one saying its the only issue.

But LOL. I didn't realize Blanch was inaccessible only by car. I've been commuting to and from it for decades by Train. No one told me.
Its interesting that the Mater was consider accessible by train, but Blanch on the same line isn't. Similarly Portlaoise isn't a problem. But Blanch and similar are.
It seems there no problem going from Blanch to James. But there is going from James to Blanch.

I think there's a bit of selective reasoning going on.

I think its you who is being selective here....I used 1 example of a nurse commuting from Portlaoise. By your twisted logic, you'd want it located there sure, lots of parking. Never mind the IR row I suppose. Build it and they will come.

But anyway, I think its time to agree to differ.

beauf

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I think the sad thing about Irish people is they don't see the hidden cost or the importance of making the place accessible for patients and recruitment. Once they could drive to the door and there's a 3 acre parking lot, that's good enough for them. ....

If I wasn't Irish would that help in seeing hidden costs?

Maybe it would help not being Irish in understanding how having staff strike over parking reduction. Then your planning on increasing the demand for that same parking many time over, wouldn't also be problematic.

PhilOssophy

tom1ie wrote: »

Not really.
It’s a project management failure.
There should have been finalised design drawings and a fully costed CMP before any contractor was appointed.

But how then did 3 other major contractors (I am trying to find a link) come in so close with their tender response (within a couple of million I think), whereas BAM were something like 40m cheaper?

Pete_Cavan

Melanchthon wrote: »

That's not true though, take a look at Google satellite view, get rid of the Musgrave's warehouse by CPOing it (CPOing a warehouse isn't politically sensitive like houses and wouldn't be a huge cost), there is additional free space across the road as well.

Edit: your link doesn't go anywhere, you can run tunnels under roads and the cost of the children's hospital as it stands means saying it would cost more is literally insane.

But that's not a green field though is it? So after CPOing that site (which involves paying the market value for the site plus compensating the businesses moved so that they can continue to operate), you have a site much the same size as that which they had for free at James's. As the site is a similar size, the building will be of a similar footprint. You still have to accommodate all the same things under the roof and end up with the same two storeys below and seven above ground so there are no real savings in terms of the building itself. You do not however have the same level of clinical services as at James's so either accept an inferior hospital with lots of transferring, or build even more at even more cost. Then when you want to build the Coombe replacement (which will also be located on the James's site and has been allowed for in the number of operating theatres, etc. in the NCH), you need to CPO yet more buildings at Tallaght. How is this a better idea?

PhilOssophy

beauf wrote: »

If I wasn't Irish would that help in seeing hidden costs?

Maybe it would help not being Irish in understanding how having staff strike over parking reduction. Then your planning on increasing the demand for that same parking many time over, wouldn't also be problematic.

Well if you think the IR dispute connected with moving the same people10-15 miles away would be less, I think we'll leave it at that!

Have a good day.

beauf

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I think its you who is being selective here....I used 1 example of a nurse commuting from Portlaoise. By your twisted logic, you'd want it located there sure, lots of parking. Never mind the IR row I suppose. Build it and they will come.

But anyway, I think its time to agree to differ.

I think its interesting how staff won't travel out to the M50 etc. But there no problem travelling in from Portlaoise.

PhilOssophy

beauf wrote: »

I think its interesting how staff won't travel out to the M50 etc. But there no problem travelling in from Portlaoise.

I think you should ring SIPTU with that query if you can't understand....

Pete_Cavan

beauf wrote: »

No one saying its the only issue.

But LOL. I didn't realize Blanch was inaccessible only by car. I've been commuting to and from it for decades by Train. No one told me.
Its interesting that the Mater was consider accessible by train, but Blanch on the same line isn't. Similarly Portlaoise isn't a problem. But Blanch and similar are.
It seems there no problem going from Blanch to James. But there is going from James to Blanch.

I think there's a bit of selective reasoning going on.

You are the only one with selective reasoning going on. You have been told why Connolly hospital is not a better option (no more space than at James's, lack of clinical services and huge cost associated with transferring them, etc.) but you ignore that and keep going back to access. The Mater and James's allow for co-locating with medical services which dont exist elsewhere, that is why they are the preferred locations. Both are also preferable in terms of access to Connolly where Google Maps gives 1.3km walking distance from the nearest train station.

PhilOssophy

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/winning-nch-bid-150m-lower-02d0wpszp

I will find a better link but I know, 3-4 other reputable contractors were within a few million of each other. How did this not set alarm bells ringing with the project board?

beauf

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Well if you think the IR dispute connected with moving the same people10-15 miles away would be less, I think we'll leave it at that!

Have a good day.

I think its interesting how walking from Connolly to a train station is about the same as walking from James to Heuston.

I think there a lot of bogus argument to justify where you want something.

PhilOssophy

beauf wrote: »

I think its interesting how walking from Connolly to a train station is about the same as walking from James to Heuston.

I think there a lot of bogus argument to justify where you want something.

You do know there's a thing called a Luas, which passes Heuston, Busaras, Connolly and links up with another Luas line?

I think you are trolling at this stage so that's my last response. You seem to be of the opinion that putting a hospital in the middle of nowhere is a good idea, and I and others (including Pete_cavan who has put questions you are choosing not to answer your way) have told you why it is BS.

Anyway, slán.

beauf

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

You are the only one with selective reasoning going on. You have been told why Connolly hospital is not a better option (no more space than at James's, lack of clinical services and huge cost associated with transferring them, etc.) but you ignore that and keep going back to access. The Mater and James's allow for co-locating with medical services which dont exist elsewhere, that is why they are the preferred locations. Both are also preferable in terms of access to Connolly where Google Maps gives 1.3km walking distance from the nearest train station.

I'm not suggesting Connolly. I'm just pointing that of the criteria are dubious at best. You guys keep harping on about accessibility and driving. But then complain when anyone point out the flaws in the logic about that.

Your argument now seems to be, is that James the cheapest option. Hows that working for you then?

beauf

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You do know there's a thing called a Luas, which passes Heuston, Busaras, Connolly and links up with another Luas line?

I think you are trolling at this stage so that's my last response. You seem to be of the opinion that putting a hospital in the middle of nowhere is a good idea, and I and others (including Pete_cavan who has put questions you are choosing not to answer your way) have told you why it is BS.

Anyway, slán.

Blanch links to the Luas at Boombridge.
Tallaght is on the Luas.

I didn't say put it in the middle of nowhere. you said it needs to be where you can get staff. But that your staff were in Portlaoise for example.

beauf

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I think you should ring SIPTU with that query if you can't understand....

You mean the Siptu who went on strike over parking...

https://siptuhealth.ie/tag/st-jamess-hospital/

beauf

While this is amusing. Its all water under the bridge now.

Now its all about watching the cost rise. It being the cheapest option etc.

PhilOssophy

beauf wrote: »

Blanch links to the Luas at Boombridge.
Tallaght is on the Luas.

I didn't say put it in the middle of nowhere. you said it needs to be where you can get staff. But that your staff were in Portlaoise for example.

FFS I used that example as where somebody might commute from to St. James. There is equally somebody coming from Dun Laoghaire, etc. Is this really too difficult for you to understand? So you think its a good idea to have them sit on a train out to Blanch and walk/push a wheelchair to Connolly.

beauf wrote: »

You mean the Siptu who went on strike over parking...

https://siptuhealth.ie/tag/st-jamess-hospital/

Yeah that's them. Ask them how much they would want to re-locate all their staff in St. James' to a site around the M50 per annum.

beauf

PhilOssophy wrote: »

FFS I used that example as where somebody might commute from to St. James. There is equally somebody coming from Dun Laoghaire, etc. Is this really too difficult for you to understand? So you think its a good idea to have them sit on a train out to Blanch and walk/push a wheelchair to Connolly.

But you seems ok with someone in Blanch or Tallaght to sit it on a train and walk/push a wheelchair to wherever to get to James. No bias there then.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Yeah that's them. Ask them how much they would want to re-locate all their staff in St. James' to a site around the M50 per annum.

Dunno they might ask about the parking.

beauf

You guys can't seem to let location go at all, can you.

PhilOssophy

beauf wrote: »

But you seems ok with someone in Blanch or Tallaght to sit it on a train and walk/push a wheelchair to wherever to get to James. No bias there then.

Yeah, I am fine with that. That's generally how hospitals work. People who need medical attention to travel to them. They don't tend to be on your doorstep.

beauf

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Yeah, I am fine with that. That's generally how hospitals work. People who need medical attention to travel to them. They don't tend to be on your doorstep.

So it actually you who wants it in the middle of nowhere then.

PhilOssophy

beauf wrote: »

So it actually you who wants it in the middle of nowhere then.

Go read my 1st post while I add you to my ignore list.

beauf

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Because putting a hospital where only people can drive to on one of the most congested road networks in Europe would be absolute madness. ....

Well they certainly achieved putting it one of the most congested parts of Dublin at James anyway.

Seems like you can't get the train/luas to Blanch or Tallaght. All those people doing it everyday will be disappointing, they have to stop doing that and drive from now on.

beauf

I wonder what it will cost to finish and when it will be finished.

AndrewJRenko

tom1ie wrote: »

Not really.
It’s a project management failure.
There should have been finalised design drawings and a fully costed CMP before any contractor was appointed.

How long would that have taken?

AndrewJRenko

Melanchthon wrote: »

Why wasn't Tallaght hospital chosen as the site though?

It satisfies the public transport criteria in terms of being on the Luas so that argument is gone.

It's got greenfields in the immediate area.

It's co-locating with an existing hospital which took over from the National Childrens Hospital

It's easier to reach by car from most parts of Dublin than James.

It's a shorter trip by car for most of those outside Dublin.

The Luas links up with Hueston and Connolly for those on public transport outside of Dublin?

Like it seems to satisfy all the requirements aside from a city center location, which shouldn't be a priority for a hospital serving the entire country while still allowing Dubliners relatively easy access by public transport.

James is one Luas stop from mainline rail. Tallaght is nineteen Luas stops away from mainline rail. That's a big difference.

AndrewJRenko

beauf wrote: »

If there is some other public transport system you'd prefer people to use that isn't effected by gridlocked roads, let us know.

What I'd prefer is that people stop pretending that an entire transport network is unusable because of a few newspaper headlines. Have a think about what industries fund newspaper advertising while you're there.

To put the cost of this into perspective with COVID - 8 weeks of lockdown costs the government €2 billion in direct social welfare payments alone. So an over budget children's hospital every 8 weeks.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/return-to-full-lockdown-would-cost-government-250m-a-week-economists-39588874.html

ForestFire

Deleted User wrote: »

To put the cost of this into perspective with COVID - 8 weeks of lockdown costs the government €2 billion in direct social welfare payments alone. So an over budget children's hospital every 8 weeks.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/return-to-full-lockdown-would-cost-government-250m-a-week-economists-39588874.html

(I know this is not what you suggested, but still quite possible for our leaders)
I hope this is not how Government departments look at there expenditure and budgets.....sure COVID is costing us X, no one will care is I blow my entire budget and expenditure recklessly because its less than X.

Or not how BAM are looking at thing s for that matter....Knowing the government is an easy target for more more...especially with such essential projects.