Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

beauf

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What I'd prefer is that people stop pretending that an entire transport network is unusable because of a few newspaper headlines. Have a think about what industries fund newspaper advertising while you're there.

Lost me...

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

To put the cost of this into perspective with COVID - 8 weeks of lockdown costs the government €2 billion in direct social welfare payments alone. So an over budget children's hospital every 8 weeks.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/return-to-full-lockdown-would-cost-government-250m-a-week-economists-39588874.html

Yeah but isn't this a once in a lifetime global level pandemic?
Hardly comparable to an allegedly planned and costed project.

I await the arrival of the 'magic money tree' posse...no...no sign? Fair enough.

tom1ie

PhilOssophy wrote: »

But how then did 3 other major contractors (I am trying to find a link) come in so close with their tender response (within a couple of million I think), whereas BAM were something like 40m cheaper?

Doesn’t matter though. The other three contractors would be charging massively over what they originally costed due to the fact the Management team had no proper design or scope of works in place.

The job of the management team is to deliver the specified project safely, on time, and on budget.

They couldn’t do that from day one because they had no drawings or costing for what they were building, which was their own fault.

tom1ie

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How long would that have taken?

? That’s how projects that are successful work.
You don’t hire a builder into your house without knowing what you want to build first!!

James Brown

An ordinary punter hiring someone to build an extension would set a ball park budget, have the contractor agree and pull him up or report him if it was 4 or 5 times above quote.
Our Health and Finance ministers at the time threw their hands up feigning ignorance which in itself was a sign.

#seniorhurling

beauf

ForestFire wrote: »

(I know this is not what you suggested, but still quite possible for our leaders)
I hope this is not how Government departments look at there expenditure and budgets.....sure COVID is costing us X, no one will care is I blow my entire budget and expenditure recklessly because its less than X.

Or not how BAM are looking at thing s for that matter....Knowing the government is an easy target for more more...especially with such essential projects.

In my limited experience with public sector, cost and value for money is really only viewed the perspective of public opinion and political impact. Also never to be directly responsible for anything. So if something costs a bit more, but it means someone else is accountable. That's the value for money right there.

So if you were to do something yourself that was more efficient and better value for money, but you had to be responsible for it, if it went wrong. In the Private sector you would want the risk, for the potential rewards. In the public sector, you would be a pariah. Not always, but in general.

So when you look at budgets, and committees and expert panels and consultation. That's the aim. Its to load balance blame and responsibility. To get the best outcome is in there somewhere. But it might not be the primary concern.

beauf

tom1ie wrote: »

? That’s how projects that are successful work.
You don’t hire a builder into your house without knowing what you want to build first!!

It a bit like asking a painter to keep painting your house until they hit on the a colour you like by accident. I don't know what I want, but I'll know when I see kinda of a mindset.

Of course they will get everyone they know to watch the process, or send them photos. So if anyone says they don't like it afterwards, they can counter with, well you were there/involved.

beauf

tom1ie wrote: »

? That’s how projects that are successful work.
You don’t hire a builder into your house without knowing what you want to build first!!

I want a bungalow. 6 months latter, I want a 2 storey, six months later, a 3 story.
12 months later, its in the wrong place can you move it.

Its like a blank cheque. Software projects are notorious for it. But building also.

ForestFire

tom1ie wrote: »

? That’s how projects that are successful work.
You don’t hire a builder into your house without knowing what you want to build first!!

But if this is true, how Did BAM and the other companies provide any sort of quote, for a job they knew nothing about.

What did they all actually quote for?
Did they all submit what was included in their quotations?
Did any of them go back to the Government to seeks more details, clarifications etc.?

I said jokingly in my posts yesterday, was the quotations based on a paper mache model, but maybe its not far from the truth......

But I still think a responsible company should point out the flaws clearly to the person seeking the quotation.

If I ask a builder (Taking Beauf's examples) to build me a family house...but give no further details they will not quote!!

AndrewJRenko

tom1ie wrote: »

? That’s how projects that are successful work.
You don’t hire a builder into your house without knowing what you want to build first!!

So all of the thousands of Design and Build projects done all over the world are wrong, but the lad on boards is right?

https://www.oktra.co.uk/insights/design-and-build-vs-traditional/

AndrewJRenko

James Brown wrote: »

An ordinary punter hiring someone to build an extension would set a ball park budget, have the contractor agree and pull him up or report him if it was 4 or 5 times above quote.
Our Health and Finance ministers at the time threw their hands up feigning ignorance which in itself was a sign.

#seniorhurling

You're aware of how Design and Build projects work, right?

https://www.oktra.co.uk/insights/design-and-build-vs-traditional/

salmocab

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So all of the thousands of Design and Build projects done all over the world are wrong, but the lad on boards is right?

https://www.oktra.co.uk/insights/design-and-build-vs-traditional/

That article suggests a lot of pros to design and build that aren’t happening here. Cost certainty being the big one. I wouldn’t like to get into the semantics of something I really don’t understand but what you’ve posted there and what’s happening in Rialto don’t at all sound like the same thing.

James Brown

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You're aware of how Design and Build projects work, right?

https://www.oktra.co.uk/insights/design-and-build-vs-traditional/

The point is you don't start a project with a complete blank cheque and allow the project costs run wild. I know **** happens, but it's not sound business.
The NCH project is a running, costly joke.

I'm no expert but I have experience in tendering and working with architects and engineers on multimillion projects. The basics are, planning and costing.

tom1ie

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So all of the thousands of Design and Build projects done all over the world are wrong, but the lad on boards is right?

https://www.oktra.co.uk/insights/design-and-build-vs-traditional/

Your obviously a PM who knows what he’s talking about so I’ll bow to your superior knowledge and leave it at that.

Northernlily

There's a BAM employee on the thread. It's glaringly obvious.

Tbf to the fella, I wouldn't hold against him. A corporate bubble can be a strange thing. Perspective is different from those on the outside.

Albertie

That’s right location matters a lot and if it’s the case of health and medical sector such as hospital then it’s more important and very necessary that it should be done very correctly in all the possible ways so that it could be beneficial and serve the purpose in an efficient way without any issue. It’s like many party or officials involved in making the decisions collectively on the basis of some facts but as we are not aware of all that options available to take such decision that’s why maybe we wouldn’t be able to know or make a good guess, yes possibilities and can’t ignore that cronyism always exists in past, present and in will be in future as we see around, don’t think if there will be any change but always wish and hope for the best is yet to come.

AndrewJRenko

Northernlily wrote: »

There's a BAM employee on the thread. It's glaringly obvious.

Tbf to the fella, I wouldn't hold against him. A corporate bubble can be a strange thing. Perspective is different from those on the outside.

Is this directed at me?

tom1ie wrote: »

Your obviously a PM who knows what he’s talking about so I’ll bow to your superior knowledge and leave it at that.

I know feck all about construction projects, just what I've read in a few articles.

But I know enough to know that almost all of the Boards.ie experts are way off the mark.

James Brown wrote: »

The point is you don't start a project with a complete blank cheque and allow the project costs run wild. I know **** happens, but it's not sound business.
The NCH project is a running, costly joke.

I'm no expert but I have experience in tendering and working with architects and engineers on multimillion projects. The basics are, planning and costing.

Sure lookit, don't let a lack of expertise hold you back in having all the solutions to all of life's little problems. Expertise isn't needed on boards.ie threads.

James Brown

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is this directed at me?


I know feck all about construction projects, just what I've read in a few articles.

But I know enough to know that almost all of the Boards.ie experts are way off the mark.


Sure lookit, don't let a lack of expertise hold you back in having all the solutions to all of life's little problems. Expertise isn't needed on boards.ie threads.

And don't let a difference of opinion upset you either.
Never claimed to have all the solutions. Suggested the NCH was run poorly based on very basic business logic and Project Management practice. Know how much something might cost before you commit to it. Pretty common IMO.
This sound far fetched to you?

enricoh

James Brown wrote: »

The point is you don't start a project with a complete blank cheque and allow the project costs run wild. I know **** happens, but it's not sound business.
The NCH project is a running, costly joke.

I'm no expert but I have experience in tendering and working with architects and engineers on multimillion projects. The basics are, planning and costing.

I was working on a 10 mil + job many moons ago and they added cycle paths , extras etc after the job started. Sweet baby Jesus but the council were absolutely milked on the job. The boss lovingly referred to one area as the money pit and any lads n machinery was sent there just to clock up the day works.
One day the council's head engineer was looking for the gaffer n I told him he was down at the money pit, he went mental, I hadn't realized that not everyone called it that!
Realistically will anyone be held to account for starting a job without knowing the cost, not a chance imo. The government deserved to be milked dry!

Car99

enricoh wrote: »

The government deserved to be milked dry!

They didnt deserve it but they left themselves open to it. With Irelands history of brown envelopes you would wonder how many of these late additions are engineered.

PhilOssophy

enricoh wrote: »

The government deserved to be milked dry!

Don't forget who is actually being milked dry though - it is you and I, and every other healthcare project which has been canned because of it. In addition, funding for other healthcare requirement - be they disability supports, carers allowances, etc also lose out because of incompetence and poor planning.

Or other cases like this:
https://www.kildarenow.com/news/news/608338/sick-newbridge-photographer-pat-tinsley-devastated-as-hse-rejects-wonder-drug.html

And just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Because someone else who needs it is probably losing out.

I could be wrong on this, but I am of the belief that the government drastically changed the scope and design after the tender process. To me, this was crazy. They should never have gone near tender until they were happy with the design. I know people will argue that this is why these things take so long, but this has been a disaster since day 1.

I remember looking at the original board, there were people from some very well known and reputable companies on there. I can't help wondering if they were playing with their own money, would they have made the same mistakes?

There always seems to be a different ethos when it is somebody else's money being spent.

Pete_Cavan

There is a report on the cost increases which people should look at before posting;

https://merrionstreet.ie/merrionstreet/en/news-room/releases/20190409_nch_report.pdf

Budget and Cost Escalation

In 2013 the original budget for the NPH Project was defined as €790m

In April 2017, the Definitive Business Case (DBC) identified a total cost of €983m to cover the construction and equipping of the NCH and the two satellite centres.

By December 2018 the estimated cost of building the NCH and satellite centres had increased by €450m to €1.43bn as set out in the diagram below.

To complete the hospital, it is estimated that a further €293m will be required for other items including integration of the three existing hospitals (€86m), IT systems (€97m), implementation of an electronic health record system (€52m) and a research and innovation centre (€18m). There is also a provision of €40m for costs already incurred in relation to the Mater site. Therefore the current estimated Capital Investment Requirement for the NPH Project is €1.73bn.

These figures are overall project cost, so not just what BAM get/want to get paid. There is about €200m in there for VAT which obviously goes back to the government. It also includes Design Team and project staff fees on the government's side and the €40m for costs already incurred in relation to the Mater site was spent a decade ago. Hard to know what the €86m for integration of the three existing hospitals relates to (presumably the three existing hospitals are the childrens hospitals at Crumlin, Temple Street and Tallaght), if it has anything to do with construction, paying off senior people in each if there are less senior positions with one hospital or what.

TheW1zard

Either way, how can a building take so long to build and cost so much!?

It is criminal, and it cant be justified in my opinion.

It will cost over 2000000000euros

Geuze

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This just seems like a convenient way for people to squeeze in a bit of good old fashioned begrudgery into this. Have you anything to support it?

Simply reporting what I heard/read.

PhilOssophy

TheW1zard wrote: »

Either way, how can a building take so long to build and cost so much!?

It is criminal, and it cant be justified in my opinion.

It will cost over 2000000000euros

Because it isn't costing anybody involved money. It is costing people who lose out on services, but people on a project board like this don't care because, well, its tax payers money.

We are a terrible country of protest - we protest about the wrong things. We should have been on the streets for this demanding answers and heads rolling. But instead, KPMG or whoever made a fortune on a report that nobody cares about.

But we have a culture in the HSE where the hand is always out for more money, rather than looking at how it is spent in the first place. Until this mentality changes, we can't really expect anything other than a scandal like this.

RulesOfNature

100 percent a scam. There is no way that Ireland with a population of 5million needs the world's most expensive hospital. There is not one aspect of this project from the location, materiel, personnel, and planning that doesnt scream backhanded deals. The sad part is no one is going to do anything about it. Irish people are subjects, not citizens.

Kivaro

RulesOfNature wrote: »

100 percent a scam. There is no way that Ireland with a population of 5million needs the world's most expensive hospital. There is not one aspect of this project from the location, materiel, personnel, and planning that doesnt scream backhanded deals. The sad part is no one is going to do anything about it. Irish people are subjects, not citizens.

Good description.

Kivaro

Speaking of subjects, the Kings and Princes of the oil-rich kingdoms in the Middle East must be looking at Ireland and wondering how our leaders were able to subjugate its subjects to such a level. Ireland, one of the most indebted country on planet earth, building the most expensive hospital on planet earth. Wonder if there is a correlation?

I'm sure that the Kings of Saudia Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait will be sending their engineers over to examine our new hospital with the gold gilded corridors and fresco paintings by Banksy, because that is what they expect with the price that the subjects are paying for this grandiose building.

Ash.J.Williams

Kivaro wrote: »

Speaking of subjects, the Kings and Princes of the oil-rich kingdoms in the Middle East must be looking at Ireland and wondering how our leaders were able to subjugate its subjects to such a level. Ireland, one of the most indebted country on planet earth, building the most expensive hospital on planet earth. Wonder if there is a correlation?

I'm sure that the Kings of Saudia Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait will be sending their engineers over to examine our new hospital with the gold gilded corridors and fresco paintings by Banksy, because that is what they expect with the price that the subjects are paying for this grandiose building.

That’s it and in reality it will be the same as tallaght, literally all the money went on red tape

Latest estimate was what, €2.4 billion. Around $2.88 billion. New World Trade Centre was $3.8 billion. But people will defend and hand-wave away.