Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

PhilOssophy

Kivaro wrote: »

Speaking of subjects, the Kings and Princes of the oil-rich kingdoms in the Middle East must be looking at Ireland and wondering how our leaders were able to subjugate its subjects to such a level. Ireland, one of the most indebted country on planet earth, building the most expensive hospital on planet earth. Wonder if there is a correlation?

I'm sure that the Kings of Saudia Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait will be sending their engineers over to examine our new hospital with the gold gilded corridors and fresco paintings by Banksy, because that is what they expect with the price that the subjects are paying for this grandiose building.

Well if those countries are a barometer of anything other than how not to treat people, I think its time to throw our hat at it.

blanch152

Kivaro wrote: »

Speaking of subjects, the Kings and Princes of the oil-rich kingdoms in the Middle East must be looking at Ireland and wondering how our leaders were able to subjugate its subjects to such a level. Ireland, one of the most indebted country on planet earth, building the most expensive hospital on planet earth. Wonder if there is a correlation?

I'm sure that the Kings of Saudia Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait will be sending their engineers over to examine our new hospital with the gold gilded corridors and fresco paintings by Banksy, because that is what they expect with the price that the subjects are paying for this grandiose building.

I actually think they would be more interested in finding out how we manage to build hospitals and schools and not have thousands of slave workers die in the process.

AndrewJRenko

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Because it isn't costing anybody involved money. It is costing people who lose out on services, but people on a project board like this don't care because, well, its tax payers money.

We are a terrible country of protest - we protest about the wrong things. We should have been on the streets for this demanding answers and heads rolling. But instead, KPMG or whoever made a fortune on a report that nobody cares about.

But we have a culture in the HSE where the hand is always out for more money, rather than looking at how it is spent in the first place. Until this mentality changes, we can't really expect anything other than a scandal like this.

Billion euro overspends would certainly never happen in the private sector, surely?

https://www.fintechfutures.com/2019/03/fears-over-bank-of-ireland-e2bn-tech-revamp-cost/

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sure lookit, don't let a lack of expertise hold you back in having all the solutions to all of life's little problems. Expertise isn't needed on boards.ie threads.

This is basically an attempt to shut down all discussion.

People don't have to be experts to know when something has gone tits up. If an upgrade to my phone blocks my phone, I don't have to be a mobile phone guru to know that something has gone wrong. If a bridge collapses in a stiff breeze I don't have to be a structural engineer to know that the bridge was designed badly. If a pilot flies into a mountain I don't have to be a pilot or a aerospace engineer to suggest something has gone wrong.

This appeal to undeserved authority is a logical fallacy.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Billion euro overspends would certainly never happen in the private sector, surely?

https://www.fintechfutures.com/2019/03/fears-over-bank-of-ireland-e2bn-tech-revamp-cost/

This is also a logical fallacy. Unless somebody has said that that billion euro overspends didn't happen in the private sector, this is a reply to a straw man.

Most people here are criticising BAM, in any case, as well as the government agencies.

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

Latest estimate was what, €2.4 billion. Around $2.88 billion. New World Trade Centre was $3.8 billion. But people will defend and hand-wave away.

2.4 billion is 1% of our predeicted national debt by the end of 2021

Pete_Cavan

Is there a link for the €2.4bn figure?

The last official figure was €1.73bn but that includes €200m in VAT, €86m for integration of the three existing hospitals, all Design Team and project staff fees on the government's side and €40m for costs already incurred in relation to the Mater site was spent a decade ago - things which normally wouldn't be included in construction costs.

Wanderer78

Pete_Cavan wrote:

Is there a link for the €2.4bn figure?

Ah it ll probably be higher once done, wouldnt be worrying about it now

PhilOssophy

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Billion euro overspends would certainly never happen in the private sector, surely?

https://www.fintechfutures.com/2019/03/fears-over-bank-of-ireland-e2bn-tech-revamp-cost/

Well if BOI is the best example you can find and you call it "Private Sector", then I'll leave any debate there.

I will also add that the client clearly didn't have a proper plan for what they wanted to do - and as a result the cost spiralled out of all control. Sound familiar?

I could go on about the accountability, etc but I am sure there was none - it sounds like BOI's investors just took it on the chin.....and Accenture/Capgemini cleaned up. Sound familiar?

Wanderer78

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Billion euro overspends would certainly never happen in the private sector, surely?

https://www.fintechfutures.com/2019/03/fears-over-bank-of-ireland-e2bn-tech-revamp-cost/

hahahahahhaahhahaha

Why is BOI relevant?

PhilOssophy

fvp4 wrote: »

Why is BOI relevant?

Only because the above poster raised it as an example of overspend in the "private sector"....

Northernlily

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Billion euro overspends would certainly never happen in the private sector, surely?

https://www.fintechfutures.com/2019/03/fears-over-bank-of-ireland-e2bn-tech-revamp-cost/

We couldn't run a piss up in a brewery in this country. BOI operates very similar structurally to the public sector. Plenty of gombeens and yes men promoted way above their capability. Similar to the NCH the project was probably scoped and designed badly from the offset.

On the bright side us consultants will continue to make hay of such wreckless squandering.

Wanderer78

Northernlily wrote: »

We couldn't run a piss up in a brewery in this country. BOI operates very similar structurally to the public sector. Plenty of gombeens and yes men promoted way above their capability. Similar to the NCH the project was probably scoped and designed badly from the offset.

On the bright side us consultants will continue to make hay of such wreckless squandering.

the whole global private sector banking system has become highly toxic and dangerous for all, 08 was a clear indication of this

PhilOssophy

Northernlily wrote: »

On the bright side us consultants will continue to make hay of such wreckless squandering.

I think that is the case. An entire industry has been made in consultants, etc just cleaning up due to the money waste across the public and semi-state sectors.

Every time I hear of a "report" being prepared, I cringe at the reality that EY/Deloitte/KMPG/etc are absolutely making a fortune writing a report which nobody will read, which will hold nobody accountable, but the tax payer will pony up the cash for the report as well as for the fk up which resulted in the report being written in the first place.

Wanderer78

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I think that is the case. An entire industry has been made in consultants, etc just cleaning up due to the money waste across the public and semi-state sectors.

Every time I hear of a "report" being prepared, I cringe at the reality that EY/Deloitte/KMPG/etc are absolutely making a fortune writing a report which nobody will read, which will hold nobody accountable, but the tax payer will pony up the cash for the report as well as for the fk up which resulted in the report being written in the first place.

the ould big four, the big scam!

Northernlily

Northernlily wrote: »

We couldn't run a piss up in a brewery in this country. BOI operates very similar structurally to the public sector. Plenty of gombeens and yes men promoted way above their capability. Similar to the NCH the project was probably scoped and designed badly from the offset.

On the bright side us consultants will continue to make hay of such wreckless squandering.

You consultants are part of the problem. I’m sure there were consultants involved here.

AndrewJRenko

Northernlily wrote: »

We couldn't run a piss up in a brewery in this country. BOI operates very similar structurally to the public sector. Plenty of gombeens and yes men promoted way above their capability. Similar to the NCH the project was probably scoped and designed badly from the offset.

On the bright side us consultants will continue to make hay of such wreckless squandering.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I think that is the case. An entire industry has been made in consultants, etc just cleaning up due to the money waste across the public and semi-state sectors.

Every time I hear of a "report" being prepared, I cringe at the reality that EY/Deloitte/KMPG/etc are absolutely making a fortune writing a report which nobody will read, which will hold nobody accountable, but the tax payer will pony up the cash for the report as well as for the fk up which resulted in the report being written in the first place.

Gotta love the 'Typical Ireland' moaning which ignores the reality of the world. Substantial project overruns are not unusual outside of Ireland or outside of government.

https://hbr.org/2011/09/why-your-it-project-may-be-riskier-than-you-think

https://insuranceoctopus.co.uk/business-insurance-blog/building-projects-that-have-gone-over-budget/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-test-trace-dido-harding-report-b1814714.html

https://www.consultancy.uk/news/18243/lidl-cancels-sap-introduction-having-sunk-500-million-into-it

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/infrastructure/462-infrastructure-projects-show-cost-overruns-worth-rs-4-36-lakh-crore/articleshow/82351970.cms


This kind of stuff happens all over the world, public and private.

fvp4 wrote: »

This is basically an attempt to shut down all discussion.

People don't have to be experts to know when something has gone tits up. If an upgrade to my phone blocks my phone, I don't have to be a mobile phone guru to know that something has gone wrong. If a bridge collapses in a stiff breeze I don't have to be a structural engineer to know that the bridge was designed badly. If a pilot flies into a mountain I don't have to be a pilot or a aerospace engineer to suggest something has gone wrong.

This appeal to undeserved authority is a logical fallacy.

Not really an attempt to shut down discussion. If I wanted to shut down discussion, I'd say something like 'Hey, stop that discussion now over there'.

People are welcome to discuss. But let's not kid ourselves that they actually have any real depth of knowledge as to what happened here. We might as well have a discussion about brain surgery drilling techniques or COVID vaccine epidemiology. We really don't know our respective arses from our elbows on those topics, just as we don't know our respective arses from our elbows on design/build procurement of hospital projects.

There was one poster on this thread who did seem know a bit about the topic. There was another poster who seemed to know a bit about hospital design.

But the rest of us, including myself, are just bar stool experts, banging on about stuff we really know very little about. Let's stop kidding ourselves.

PhilOssophy

No way. We have had plenty of experiences to learn from. We've had any amount of over-ran projects which we could have learned from. We didn't.

The cost overrun is nothing to do with brain surgery drilling techniques. Its to do with the scope of the project changing post-tender and BAM having the government by the balls at that stage and screwing them for every penny they could (and they have form in this regard).

Also - we're not just bar stool experts. PWC (at no doubt exorbitant cost) did a report into it.

https://www.merrionstreet.ie/en/news-room/releases/government_publishes_pwc_independent_review_of_escalation_in_national_children_hospital_costs.html

https://merrionstreet.ie/merrionstreet/en/news-room/releases/20190409_nch_report.pdf

AndrewJRenko

PhilOssophy wrote: »

No way. We have had plenty of experiences to learn from. We've had any amount of over-ran projects which we could have learned from. We didn't.

Just like every other country and every other sector. This isn't a 'typical Ireland' issue.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

The cost overrun is nothing to do with brain surgery drilling techniques. Its to do with the scope of the project changing post-tender and BAM having the government by the balls at that stage and screwing them for every penny they could (and they have form in this regard).

You know how design/build projects work, right? You know that it is not possible to complete the design to sufficient detail to get a fixed price before tender? That's the nature of design/build contracts, the procurement method used for major projects like this all over the world.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Also - we're not just bar stool experts. PWC (at no doubt exorbitant cost) did a report into it.

https://www.merrionstreet.ie/en/news-room/releases/government_publishes_pwc_independent_review_of_escalation_in_national_children_hospital_costs.html

https://merrionstreet.ie/merrionstreet/en/news-room/releases/20190409_nch_report.pdf

Sure, I'd give the PWC report some credence. I'd give 99% of the posts I've seen on this thread very little credence.

PhilOssophy

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just like every other country and every other sector. This isn't a 'typical Ireland' issue.


You know how design/build projects work, right? You know that it is not possible to complete the design to sufficient detail to get a fixed price before tender? That's the nature of design/build contracts, the procurement method used for major projects like this all over the world.




Sure, I'd give the PWC report some credence. I'd give 99% of the posts I've seen on this thread very little credence.

Not like every other sector and you've already had your previous "private sector example" from BOI completely humiliated.

I know how design/build project work. What you don't do though is allow enormous scope creep after tender. That's what happened here and nobody shouted stop. That's the problem.

You seem to be just determined to justify enormous money waste and defend this mess at all costs, don't you? The reality is, we'd have built 2 hospitals with the overspend here and you seem to think that is grand?

jmayo

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What's the connection between the James site and the escalating costs?

Well there was that big fooking hole they had to dig for a start, just because the site is totally unsuitable.
Then there is fact there is no space on site to store people, equipment or materials so everything it being shipped in and out continously.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Because putting a hospital where only people can drive to on one of the most congested road networks in Europe would be absolute madness. At least here, it is linked to every major transport hub by a tram (1 stop from a train station serving well over 1/2 the country), people have options to get there and it is located with relatively high-density population, co-located beside a teaching hospital.

The only discussion should have been whether it should have been beside whatever replaces Holles Street, not putting it on the M50.

We could have built a fooking tram line to Connolly/Blanch for what this is costing.

BTW hands up anyone that knows someone that brings their sick kids to hospital on public transport, especially those who don't happen to live in Dublin.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Billion euro overspends would certainly never happen in the private sector, surely?

https://www.fintechfutures.com/2019/03/fears-over-bank-of-ireland-e2bn-tech-revamp-cost/

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Gotta love the 'Typical Ireland' moaning which ignores the reality of the world. Substantial project overruns are not unusual outside of Ireland or outside of government.

https://hbr.org/2011/09/why-your-it-project-may-be-riskier-than-you-think

https://insuranceoctopus.co.uk/business-insurance-blog/building-projects-that-have-gone-over-budget/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-test-trace-dido-harding-report-b1814714.html

https://www.consultancy.uk/news/18243/lidl-cancels-sap-introduction-having-sunk-500-million-into-it

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/infrastructure/462-infrastructure-projects-show-cost-overruns-worth-rs-4-36-lakh-crore/articleshow/82351970.cms


This kind of stuff happens all over the world, public and private.

So two of your examples involves SAP, a notorious money pit if it is not planned properly with clear end goals.
You can spend the rest of your days configuring it if you are a mind to.
Funnily enough these major SAP overrun projects involves one of the major consultancy firms. :rolleyes:

Another example was India, yep that country that is currently handling covid so well.

Other examples were from the UK, you know that country that really showed how great it was when they proverbially emptied both barrels into their feet in how they handled Brexit.

And then we had one of our major banks mentioned earlier.
You know one of the banks that drove itself into the ground.

Come on admit you have skin in the game.

Everytime there is discussion on New Childrens Hospital you are all over like a fly on shyte, defending it to the end.

PhilOssophy

Who brings their sick child to hospital on public transport? I dunno, maybe somebody with a child who can travel on public transport, who might need to be able to move around over the 2-3 hours, who likes to leave their house and know that and know they'd be at their appointment on time rather than leaving 2 hours earlier and and playing M7/M50 roulette as to whether they are sitting back to Naas or Lucan?
Not saying everybody would do it, or is in a position to do it, but the very least people deserve is the option to do it.

Also - there are people who don't have a car, don't like driving, etc - are you seriously saying that these didn't need to be considered?

jmayo

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Who brings their sick child to hospital on public transport? I dunno, maybe somebody with a child who can travel on public transport, who might need to be able to move around over the 2-3 hours, who likes to leave their house and know that and know they'd be at their appointment on time rather than leaving 2 hours earlier and and playing M7/M50 roulette as to whether they are sitting back to Naas or Lucan?
Not saying everybody would do it, or is in a position to do it, but the very least people deserve is the option to do it.

Also - there are people who don't have a car, don't like driving, etc - are you seriously saying that these didn't need to be considered?

Ok you are living in most parts of Mayo (lets leave out Castlebar, Ballina, Westport, Claremorris) that is not on rail network, anywhere West or North of Galway city, Donegal no rail network at all and you want to bring your cancer suffering child who happens to be very susceptible to infection to the National Childrens Hospital for checkup or treatment.
Are you going to drag them to the nearest rail link to then take train to Heuston station, to then lump them onto Luas to eventually get to the NCH ?

And it would be even more hassle if that child is in a wheelchair.

Now of course that is only a few counties in the West and we all know they don't really matter to all you cosmopolitians in the centre of the universe that is Dublin.
But I can list people right around the country that will not consider using public transport to ever go near anything in Dublin nevermind take a sick child to centre of Dublin.
Hell I know of sick kids in Wicklow that go in and out to children's hospitals in Dublin by car.
No fooking way would parents consider dragging them around on public transport.

BTW for what we are paying for this badly located new hospital we could have built both it and a new maternity hospital on a green field site and probably had change to extend a new luas line to it.

Why not think big and for the future?
After all we always pay big in the end anything. :rolleyes:

No this was all about politics.
First it was Bertie feathering his old employer and his constituency.

Then when that was scuppered James and Trinity jumped in there.

Then as a sop to Vincents and UCD they got new National Maternity hospital.
And even that then was a fookup due to the trustees/site owners being religious order with their own take on treatment or lack of for pregnant women. :rolleyes:

Ah yes the old colocation, best practice and all those reports.
What were the guidelines at the start?
It is easy enough to get a report written that guarantees a certain outcome.

Best practice is not to achieve the accolade of the most expensive hospital in the world.

Normally there is a thing called value for money.

I know not something ever considered by our governments, politicians, definitely not our heath service and all the vested interests (some of whom are definitely posting on here continously excusing the shyteshow).

IngazZagni

If it's just an appointment for a checkup I believe much of this can be done at the satellite centres at Tallaght and Blanch which is already open by the way.
For the more serious stuff parents will now have hotel type facilities on site in James's so they can stay close their child during treatment and not travel large distances each day during treatment.

PhilOssophy

jmayo, I think we are such a distance apart there's no point arguing.
If you think having a hospital located adjacent to a train station which serves a significant portion of the population of the country, as well as linked by a tram to the 2 other major transport hubs, as well as located within the capital city is a bad idea, I wish you a good day.

salmocab

PhilOssophy wrote: »

jmayo, I think we are such a distance apart there's no point arguing.
If you think having a hospital located adjacent to a train station which serves a significant portion of the population of the country, as well as linked by a tram to the 2 other major transport hubs, as well as located within the capital city is a bad idea, I wish you a good day.

To be fair he doesn’t think it’s a bad idea because of those reasons.

jmayo

PhilOssophy wrote: »

jmayo, I think we are such a distance apart there's no point arguing.
If you think having a hospital located adjacent to a train station which serves a significant portion of the population of the country, as well as linked by a tram to the 2 other major transport hubs, as well as located within the capital city is a bad idea, I wish you a good day.

As Salmocab stated I never said it was wrong place because it was near railway station or tram line.

That would be great if it wasn't stuck in an ill suited site, with no potential for real further growth down the line.
And a site that is very troublesome and inconvenient for a huge chunk of not alone the country, but people from Dublin, to reach by road.

You sound like a deluded green when you think everyone with sick kids will be traveling to this via our train and tram network.

Imagine it is on green field site where you can expand, build extra accommodation, add maternity unit, where you can get to it by road, which is the primary means of transport around this country, no matter what some flutes in the greens think.

Do you actually seriously think most people in this country use our train network?
And most especially when traveling with sick kids.

And who the feck is going to drive to the Red Cow, dump their car and get on the Luas to travel a few miles.
You may have traveled right across the country and now you dump the car to take a sick kid on a tram for the last few miles.
It is taking a sick kid to a hospital not a day out for a match in Croke Park.

A lot of the people traveling to this from right around the country will not be taking kids that are healthy and well, but kids with heart disease, leukemia, hodgkin's disease, muscular dystrophy, paraplegia, quadriplegia, burns, respiratory issues, etc.

PhilOssophy

salmocab wrote: »

To be fair he doesn’t think it’s a bad idea because of those reasons.

I stopped reading in detail when I read "rural Mayo" and scanned through the rest of the rambling, ranting nonsense.

I think you'll also find that I never said anybody with kids will bring their kids by public transport. What I said is that people deserve the option and an alternative. And having had a family member who was dragging a kid out of bed at 5am and spending lots of time on our motorway network driving a kid to Crumlin, I know their attitude was "if only there was a train service to this place, where I could consider if I could take a train".

Also - there are parents of children who don't have a car with kids with these conditions. They deserve access to this hospital as well.

salmocab

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I stopped reading in detail when I read "rural Mayo" and scanned through the rest of the rambling, ranting nonsense.

I think you'll also find that I never said anybody with kids will bring their kids by public transport. What I said is that people deserve the option and an alternative. And having had a family member who was dragging a kid out of bed at 5am and spending lots of time on our motorway network driving a kid to Crumlin, I know their attitude was "if only there was a train service to this place, where I could consider if I could take a train".

Also - there are parents of children who don't have a car with kids with these conditions. They deserve access to this hospital as well.

I never claimed you said any of those things so I’m not really sure what point you think you’re making, I simply pointed out that the poster hadn’t said the things you claimed he did, which given your response to me may be a trend.