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Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam
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I wasn’t suggesting they build them at the same time, more that they build the NCH then the maternity hospital that’s planned anyway. Both at a cheaper price than jamming them onto James’s hospital. These along with proper infrastructure and planning for access, parking and an energy Center etc would allow for a modern hospital to be built in the future. We’re talking about something that will be around for a century, I’d rather wait 30 years for the tri location than try to force it all into a site too small and inaccessible. I’ve brought my son to crumlin and an extra worry doing that is always parking. I can drive to crumlin in 20 minutes but PT would take me at about 90. Rialto will be worse for parking.
In that case the NCH would be operating remote from many necessary facilities for decades or you'd be duplicating and splitting staff which would be more costly. You can't just build a sprawling low level building just because you have more space, it may be cheaper to build but leads to a less efficient hospital. It is more efficient to move trolleys between wards and clinical areas which are stacked vertically in lifts as much as possible than to push them large distances with less level changes. Also efficiencies in providing facilities for deliveries, maintenance, waste disposal, etc. at basement serving areas above by lift so it would still be a large multi leveled structure if built elsewhere. A vast surface car park would mean long walks from car to hospital with little or no shelter so you'd still want some basement or multi-storey parking structures.0 -
ILoveYourVibes wrote: »Imagine if it falls down.
I mean it feels like fate.
"O’Reilly Avenue, Dublin 8 / National Paediatric Hospital Development
2HQ are providing expert engineering services to the owners of properties beside the new Children’s Hospital construction site. Certain damage has been caused to the properties and the developer has undertaken to underpin and repair the properties. We are working with the hospital team to agree the works and procedures for the repairs to the properties."0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »In that case the NCH would be operating remote from many necessary facilities for decades or you'd be duplicating and splitting staff which would be more costly. You can't just build a sprawling low level building just because you have more space, it may be cheaper to build but leads to a less efficient hospital. It is more efficient to move trolleys between wards and clinical areas which are stacked vertically in lifts as much as possible than to push them large distances with less level changes. Also efficiencies in providing facilities for deliveries, maintenance, waste disposal, etc. at basement serving areas above by lift so it would still be a large multi leveled structure if built elsewhere. A vast surface car park would mean long walks from car to hospital with little or no shelter so you'd still want some basement or multi-storey parking structures.
I never mentioned vast low level buildings or sprawling vast surface car parks. You’re arguing against things that haven’t been said.
The NCH is already remote from these services and is spread over 2 hospitals and Tallaght. My idea give a better long term plan than trying to fit 3 hospitals onto one hospitals already tight plot.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »In that case the NCH would be operating remote from many necessary facilities for decades or you'd be duplicating and splitting staff which would be more costly. You can't just build a sprawling low level building just because you have more space, it may be cheaper to build but leads to a less efficient hospital. It is more efficient to move trolleys between wards and clinical areas which are stacked vertically in lifts as much as possible than to push them large distances with less level changes. Also efficiencies in providing facilities for deliveries, maintenance, waste disposal, etc. at basement serving areas above by lift so it would still be a large multi leveled structure if built elsewhere. A vast surface car park would mean long walks from car to hospital with little or no shelter so you'd still want some basement or multi-storey parking structures.
I never mentioned vast low level buildings or sprawling vast surface car parks. You’re arguing against things that haven’t been said.
The NCH is already remote from these services and is spread over 2 hospitals and Tallaght. My idea give a better long term plan than trying to fit 3 hospitals onto one hospitals already tight plot.0 -
Cant we just build one huge hospital in the midlands somewhere? Cheaper and serves the whole country.0
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Cant we just build one huge hospital in the midlands somewhere? Cheaper and serves the whole country.
No.
You need to understand the requirements for co-location.
Aldo that puts it further away from more people.
Like it or not , Dublin is where the population lives. For emergencies, helicopters can be used to bring patients from from further away0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Personally, I feel it should have been built on one of the green sites around this general area:
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3638795,-6.4278286,1588m/data=!3m1!1e3
(I'm not overly clued into dublin, but from Google maps that area looks unused)
Buy all the green space, and start putting in plans to turn the area into a 'medical quarter' of sorts. Stick the Children's Hospital in, and draw up the plans for multiple more buildings to be built around it, as and when the time comes. Then when we need to build any new public health buildings, for whatever uses, they have space beside the Children's Hospital to do it. The population is growing and growing again, so there'll be need to build more hospital and medical/care facilities in the coming decades. Having a plan to bunch them all together, along with an ambulance base, large car park, etc. just makes sense to me.
It's also right beside the M50 and M4.
Journey time from to there from..
Dublin Port: 20mins
Drogheda: 40mins
Athlone: 1hr 15mins
Galway: 2hr 5mins
Cork: 2hr 45mins
Almost every journey would be 90% motorway, no parking issues, no queues of traffic, no pedestrians, and close enough to large parts of Dublin that that sticking it on a couple of bus routes wouldn't be disruptive.
But sure, I'm no expert.
I don't think any of us are experts here, including myself.
Here's the expert members of the Dolphin Committee, who recommended St James;Dr Frank Dolphin (Chair)
Frank Dolphin MA. PhD. AFBPsS. C.Psychol. FMII.
A native of Birr, Co Offaly, Dr Frank Dolphin is the chairman of Rigney Dolphin, a successful services business with centres in Waterford and Derry.
He attended UCD, where he completed a PhD in Psychology. Dr Dolphin worked as a clinical research psychologist at the Children’s University Hospital, Temple Street and later as consulting Psychologist to St Joseph’s Clonmel, working with children in residential care. He lectured at Trinity College Dublin and in Waterford Institute of Technology in Psychology and Consumer Behaviour.
Dr Dolphin is a Registered Psychologist with the Psychological Society of Ireland a Fellow of the Marketing Institute and an Associate Fellow of the British Psychological Society.
In 1990 he established Rigney Dolphin initially providing strategic change and HR consultancy services to multinational companies. The company grew to provide a range of Business Process Outsourcing services for companies in the public and private and health sectors. It was one of the first companies to receive the Deloitte ‘Best Managed Company’ Award in 2008 and received the award for four consecutive years.
In August 2010 the Minister for Health and Children appointed him Chairman of the Health Service Executive. In December 2011 he stepped down as chairman.
He is a member of the Board of Governors of Waterford Institute of Technology. He is a former Chairman of The Children’s University Hospital, Temple St., and served on the Board of Governors of the Mater Hospital. He is also a former President of Waterford Chamber of Commerce.
Mr Simon Clear B.A. Dip. T.P. MIPI , Town Planner
Simon holds a degree in Geography and Economics and is a qualified Town Planner with 35 years professional planning experience, particularly in the area of development assessment and appraisal and is a Corporate Member of the Irish Planning Institute.
He has held planning posts with the State Planning Authority of South Australia, Kildare County Council, Dun Laoghaire Corporation, Dublin County Council and An Bord Pleanála.
As a Senior Inspector with An Bord Pleanála from 1988 to 1999 he encountered proposals for the entire range and scale of housing, industrial, business and other developments. He has considerable experience in handling public hearings, legal and strategic, planning and development issues at the highest level.
Simon has particular expertise in retail planning strategy and was a member of the Government Steering Group responsible for direction of the preparation of the Retail Planning Guidelines. He has assessed or prepared a number of the major retail proposals throughout the country and has assisted local authorities and Shannon Development in the assessment of planning applications for retail, tourism and industrial development projects. As part of multi-disciplinary teams, he has been engaged in the preparation of statutory Town Plans, Local Areas Plans, public / private partnership Action Plans, Masterplans, EIS preparation; the joint Cork CIty and County Retail Strategies, Housing Strategy and National Roads projects.
Simon Clear acted as Extern Examiner for DIT on the graduate and master level courses in sustainable planning and environment for a number of years and has been engaged to provide high level peer review of EIS and SEA for several planning authorities.
Mr Michael Collins Senior Architect ;
Michael Collins founded the practice (MCA) in 1988. He qualified as an architect in the College of Technology Bolton Street in 1967, having previously studied mechanical engineering. Through his interest in building technology generally, Michael has developed a reputation for inventive and practical solutions which in turn has resulted in a large number of projects where high technical ability is required. He has completed complex hospital projects, sound recording and television studios as well as stud farms and a large number of office buildings.
Michael has been very active in his profession and has been elected to various Government bodies and agencies including the Building Regulations Advisory Body, the Multi-Storey Buildings Task Force, the Fire Services Council and the Construction Industry Strategic Review Committee. He was an active member of the Irish Architectural Archive, the International Union of Architects and Architect's Council of Europe. He has been an active member of the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland for most of his career and has served on various committees and on Council. He was elected RIAI President for 1986/87.
Mr John Martin, Senior Planner
Mr Martin is a Senior Planner with many years experience. He is recently retired.
Principal Planning Adviser, Dept. of the Environment, Community and Local Government (2002 – 2011):
Main functions included:
· Advising on new legislation, particularly the 2010 Planning Act
· Preparation of planning guidelines for local authorities
· Liaison with regional and local authorities, particularly in Dublin and Cork
· Implementation of EU Directives
Deputy City Planner, Dublin City Council (1994 – 2001):
· Responsible for overall management of up to 4,500 planning applications p.a.
· Involved with major urban regeneration projects in Temple Bar, Smithfield, and Dublin docklands
· Helped establish the Digital Hub project in the Liberties
Senior Planner, Dun Laoghaire (1987 – 1994):
· Dealt with redevelopment of 70-acre sites at St. Helen’s, Booterstown and Carysfort College, Blackrock
· Dealt with development of major projects in Dun Laoghaire (Pavilion and Bloomfields sites)
· Member of Review Group which recommended marina development in Dun Laoghaire Harbour
Senior Inspector, An Bord Pleanála (1984 – 1987):
· Responsible for reporting on planning appeals in Cos. Meath and Monaghan
Professor Owen Smith
Professor Owen Patrick Smith
MA, MB, BA Mod.(Biochem.), FRCPCH, FRCPI, FFpathRCPI, FRCPEdin, FRCPLon, FRCP Glasg, FRCPath, DHMSA, Hon FTCD
Professor of Haematology , The University of Dublin, Trinity College Dublin, Ireland
Consultant Paediatric Haematologist, Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital,, Crumlin, Dublin 12,
Professor Smith is a Consultant Paediatric Haematologist at Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital Dublin, and is Professor of Childhood Blood Disorders at the University of Dublin, Trinity College Dublin. Since returning from postgraduate training at Great Ormond Street Children’s Hospital, London (5 years) in the early 1990’s he has devoted the last twenty years of his career to caring for neonates, children and adolescents with cancer and blood disorders in terms of basic science, clinical research and patient care.
The co-author of more than 300 research original articles, letters, books, book chapters and papers, Professor Smith is a Fellow of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. Royal College of Pathologists, and the Royal College of Physicians of Dublin, London, Glasgow, Edinburgh. He is a member of numerous associations and societies, including; the Medical Research Council Childhood Leukaemia Working Party, the International Berlin Frankfurt Munster Study Group for Childhood Leukaemia, the United Kingdom Haemophilia Centre Directors Organisation, the European Paediatric Network for Haemophilia Management, the United Kingdom Children’s Cancer Group, the Paediatric Haematology Forum of the British Society of Haematology, and the European Paediatric Network for Severe Congenital Neutropenia.
Professor Smith conducts knowledge exchange activities through his extensive record of invited talks at international meetings. He has served as an expert on many national and international advisory panels for various paediatric disease groups. He plays a leadership role in national and international committees which formulate best practice guidelines for delivering care to children and adolescents with rare disease, especially in the assessment / treatment of childhood and adolescent haematological malignancies. He is an international advocate for children with rare diseases and for expanded access to expensive drugs.
In 2001, he was appointed project director to build the National Paediatric Haematology & Oncology Centre (NPHOC) at Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital, Crumlin (OLCH), the only facility in Ireland for the assessment and treatment of children and adolescents with cancer and blood disorders. The NPHOC Child Healthcare Programme has been the single biggest development in Irish Paediatrics with approximately 100 new child health-care professionals being employed and a new state-of-the-art facility being built at OLCH. The programme was completed in September 2006. He continues to play a leadership role within the NPHOC and have been instrumental in funding expansion of Consultant, junior medical & nurse staffing, and re-configuring roles and services within this internationally renowned department.
In 2009 the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and its project team invited him to become a consultant stakeholder in the planning of the new Children’s Hospital of Ireland with particular emphasis on becoming an active member of their model of care committee.
Professor Smith was awarded the Graves Medal by the Royal Academy of Medicine and Health Research Board in 2001 for his research into novel therapeutic strategies in meningococcal sepsis that had received international acclaim. In 2006, Professor Smith was awarded the St Luke’s Medal by the Royal Academy of Medicine and St Luke’s Hospital for his work on improving outcomes in adolescent cancers with specific reference to the haematological malignancies.
He was admitted to Honorary Fellowship of Trinity College Dublin (the oldest and most valued tradition of the University) in 2009.
Prof Jonathan Hourihane
Prof Jonathan Hourihane
PhD Med, DR, FELLOWSHIP,MB,DM,MRCPI, FRCPCH
Profesor Jonathan Hourihane has been Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health in University College Cork, Ireland since 2005. He graduated from Trinity College Dublin in 1987. He obtained his Doctorate in Medicine from the University of Southampton in 1996, for his thesis entitled “Clinical and immunological features of peanut allergy”. He achieved FRCPCH in 2005, FRCPI in 2008 and FAAAAI in 2011. He is co-PI of the BASELINE birth cohort study (www.baselinestudy.net.).He is Secretary of the Irish Association of Allergy and Immunology. He is a board member of Molecular Medicine Ireland (www.MolecularMedicineIreland.ie).
Prof B. G. Loftus (Brendan Gerard Loftus)
Prof B. G. Loftus (Brendan Gerard Loftus)
MB, BAO, B.Ch, DCH, MRCPI, MD, FRCPI, FRCPCH, JCHMT
Prof Loftus is Dean of the College of Medicine, Nursing & Health Sciences at NUI Galway. He is also a consultant paediatrician and has worked as Prof of Paediatrics at NUI Galway. He has published extensively in the area of paediatric medicine and is a member of a number of Learned Societies:- Irish Paediatric Association, British Paediatric Association, Irish Perinatal Society, Paediatric Research Society, European Paediatric Respiratory Society, Irish Thoracic Society, European Respiratory Society, Irish and American Paediatric Society. He has been appointed to a number of public bodies and organisations and is currently vice-Dean of the Faculty of Paediatrics of the RCPI.
Professor Clodagh O’Gorman MB BCH BAO MRCPI MSc
Professor O’Gorman is Professor of Paediatrics at the University of Limerick and Consultant Paediatrician at the HSE Mid-Western Regional Hospital, Limerick
Professor O’Gorman’s research interests include: paediatric obesity, paediatric diabetes and paediatric endocrine disorders. Prof O’Gorman is a member of the RCPI. She graduated from Galway University and completed her paediatric training in Ireland and Toronto.
Louise Shepherd MBA MA CPFA – Chief Executive, Alder Hey Children’s NHS Trust
Ms Shepherd joined Alder Hey on 10th March 2008 from Liverpool Women’s NHS Trust where as Chief Executive she led it to Foundation Trust status, the first in Merseyside. Formerly deputy Chief Executive and finance Director at the Countess of Chester NHS Trust for five and a half years Louise first joined the health service in 1993 as Director of business development at Birmingham Heartlands and Solihull
NHS Trust.
A Cambridge University graduate in 1985, Ms Shepherd trained as an accountant in local government before spending four years with KPMG in Birmingham as a financial and management consultant to the public sector.
Ms Shepherd is very active in Liverpool outside of the health service, in particular as vice chair of the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Society.
Trust Committee Membership and Role:
· Member of the Clinical Quality Assurance Committee
· Member of the Resources and Business Development Committee
· Attendee of the Audit Committee
· Attendee of Transformation Committee
Is there any particular reason why we should listen to the average boards poster, or the average Mammy campaigner who couldn't comprehend using any possible mode of transport other than her SUV over and above the distinguished members of this group?
Parking isn't the big issue in locating a children's hospital. Colocation with an adult hospital came out as the most important requirement for clinical excellence.
Do we want a hospital that gets best medical outcomes for our children, or do we want a hospital that's easy to drive to?0 -
Niner leprauchan wrote: »Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.
Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?
Theres a lot of land already owned by the government that's just off major road, and about 20 minutes away from the red cow interchange.
I can't understand why no one considered the Curragh as a possible site tbh.0 -
Theres a lot of land already owned by the government that's just off major road, and about 20 minutes away from the red cow interchange.
I can't understand why no one considered the Curragh as a possible site tbh.
Co-location, gives access to specialist, you could build it in the Curragh but it could not deliver the same level of service and life’s would be lost.0 -
Good OP.
I'd completely forgot about this tbh and just presumed it would be finished or nearly finished by now. Then i looked into it and read an opening time by 2023 will be "very challenging". They've been at it years already for christ sake.0 -
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Co-location, gives access to specialist, you could build it in the Curragh but it could not deliver the same level of service and life’s would be lost.
Relocation of a few specialists? Money doesn't seem to be an obstacle to prevent that from happening, from where I'm looking at the project so far.0 -
Am slightly biased here as I'm working on the site & live less than 10mins away so it suits me
I'm from literally right beside it, the new hospital fronts onto my family home.
Some hysterical claims been made here about rigged bids & traffic- some folk have no idea what they are talking about.
Not remotely going to claim that it's the best location but it does seem to me that the opinions of the NCH board are the ones that carry the most weight.
Time will tell I guess.0 -
One reason for the location is that the consultants live in South Dublin, and will not travel to northwest Dublin.
Never underestimate the effects of powerful vested interests.
Given the level of overspend we could have genetically engineered an army of consultants in a lab and probably come in at a cheaper cost. The volume of overspend is so off the charts it's hard to comprehend.0 -
I never mentioned vast low level buildings or sprawling vast surface car parks. You’re arguing against things that haven’t been said.
The NCH is already remote from these services and is spread over 2 hospitals and Tallaght. My idea give a better long term plan than trying to fit 3 hospitals onto one hospitals already tight plot.
Well you talked about using space to build a cheaper building which implies it spreading horizontally rather than vertically. I am pointing out that whenever the hospital was built, it is better to build it higher rather than wider. In a hospital, vertical movement (for patients, supplies in, waste out, etc.) via lifts is more efficient than horizontal movement. Building services are also easier to provide this way with interstitial floors for plant.
The whole point of building the NCH is to have it co-located with other specialised medical facilities. A plan which involves it being remote from these for decades while you try to get the specialised facilities moved to it makes no sense when you can build it beside those facilities now.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »There is zero chance details of the other tenders as they come in. Massive tenders like this get submitted very close to the submission deadline. The work that goes into them is enormous and they are working on them as long as they can. The pricing in particular is under consideration right up to the end as they are weighing up being low enough to win the tender against the commercial risks involved. Even if someone got details of another tender several hours before the deadline, it wouldn't be enough time to adjust your own tender and get it in in time.
All tenders are opened at the same time, not individual tenders opened as they are received. Multiple people will be in the room for opening tenders and the process is recorded and signed off. Electronic tendering means that digital records are available for when all tenders are opened.
If you think tenders are opened by some lad alone well in advance of the deadline and info sent to other tenders, you clearly have no experience of tendering whatsoever.
You have missed pages of posts. I never once said that there was an issue with the tendering for this project0 -
ExMachina1000 wrote: »You have missed pages of posts. I never once said that there was an issue with the tendering for this project
So you just decided posted the following in this thread while not at all implying that such issues were at play in the project with which this thread is concerned?ExMachina1000 wrote: »From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.
And then responded with similar when someone said that what you claim doesn't happen, not on public projects and certainly on those of this scale?0 -
I worked with this building company before and I will say two things about them ,they are handy at getting government contracts and they are the greatest shower of scumbags I have ever m..
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I share both your experience, and your opinion.
The saying in the industry is that most building companies are a group of builders with an accountant - this company is a group of accountants with a builder.
I witnessed some of the greatest scumbaggery I've ever seen in nearly 30 years in the industry with that shower.0 -
I share both your experience, and your opinion.
The saying in the industry is that most building companies are a group of builders with an accountant - this company is a group of accountants with a builder.
I witnessed some of the greatest scumbaggery I've ever seen in nearly 30 years in the industry with that shower.
I'm in the industry too. Not too long ago I was dealing with a QS who mentioned he used to work for BAM, he said he had to leave them because he saw the choice as either leaving them then or staying with them for the rest of his career as it meant falling out and burning bridges with so many others in the industry that it would be extremely difficult to move to another company if he stayed there for much longer.0 -
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Aren’t the new satellite centres in Blanchardstown (which is an impressive looking new facility) and Tallaght included in the price? I’m not remotely saying that makes it okay but it’s important to acknowledge the existence of these new facilities providing urgent care and other specialist care to children.0
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »I'm in the industry too. Not too long ago I was dealing with a QS who mentioned he used to work for BAM, he said he had to leave them because he saw the choice as either leaving them then or staying with them for the rest of his career as it meant falling out and burning bridges with so many others in the industry that it would be extremely difficult to move to another company if he stayed there for much longer.
Exactly my experience.
They are like the mafia, once you are in, you either need to be all in, or, if you have morals, leave.0 -
Smee_Again wrote: »This is not my experience of working on national HSE tenders, and we’ve been winning them.
Besides what good is information about other tenders received? It’s too late at that point to have any impact. Any skullduggery will be long before that when the specs are being written.
I can usually tell to within a few points what our score will be on the quality aspect of the tender before submission. Post submission I can reverse engineer our financial score versus the competition, so if anything is suspicious it’ll show up.
This.
Pretty much all the dodgy stuff I've seen in public tenders is done through manipulation of the spec. I've seen specs written in conjunction with a preferred bidder so that it is almost impossible (or at least prohibitively expensive) for anyone else to win the tender.
This is rife with one particular public body.0 -
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IngazZagni wrote: »Aren’t the new satellite centres in Blanchardstown (which is an impressive looking new facility) and Tallaght included in the price? I’m not remotely saying that makes it okay but it’s important to acknowledge the existence of these new facilities providing urgent care and other specialist care to children.
Yes, it is right to note that the scope of the project changed significantly since the oft quoted half a billion euro cost from several years ago. There are still significant overruns and some of that would be happening regardless of who the contractor is, but I think this scale of claims is part and parcel of BAMs approach to any project. It will be interesting to see what the final cost of the project will be but that will likely take several years of legal battles to determine.0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »You do know that not everyone drives or has access to a car, right? We need a hospital with great public transport connectivity, as is standard in UK and around the world. The Luas literally runs beside this building.
Who would bring a sick child on the Luas?0 -
Interested Observer wrote: »Be even harder to get to than Dublin for a lot of people. All the motorways go to Dublin.
Is there not turnoffs?0 -
Who would bring a sick child on the Luas?
Nobody and nobody will have to. There are 1,000 parking spaces being provided as part of the project including dedicated space for patients families. And again, this is a hospital for seriously ill children, not a big A&E to bring every child to. Many of the parents will be staying there for long term treatment, for which live in facilities are being provided for them and family members. Satellite centres are being provided at two locations close to the M50 for urgent care and outpatient appointments which don't have to be in the main hospital.
The vast majority of the daily comings and goings will be the huge staff (doctors, nurses, specialists, admin, porters, catering, maintenance, cleaners, etc.) required to run the place. Having the majority of these get there on public transport is preferable to having them driving on the already congested M50. Also visitors will be able to take public transport rather than having to drive, those from outside of Dublin could even park and ride from Red Cow.0 -
the location isn't that bad. beside Heuston station, on the luas line, good road all the way in from the M50.
trying to make it the first paperless hospital in the world - now that is crazy.0 -
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beggars_bush wrote: »
trying to make it the first paperless hospital in the world - now that is crazy.
This is a joke right or an uninformed comment?0
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