Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

BrianBoru00

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't think any of us are experts here, including myself.

Here's the expert members of the Dolphin Committee, who recommended St James;



Is there any particular reason why we should listen to the average boards poster, or the average Mammy campaigner who couldn't comprehend using any possible mode of transport other than her SUV over and above the distinguished members of this group?

Parking isn't the big issue in locating a children's hospital. Colocation with an adult hospital came out as the most important requirement for clinical excellence.

Do we want a hospital that gets best medical outcomes for our children, or do we want a hospital that's easy to drive to?

- There were plenty of "distinguished people" who are/were against the location.
- Parking IS a big issue in Ireland for a national hospital given the poor transport options nationally in comparison to other countries. Best international practice should not be the be all and end all and decisions should be made with due regard for this country and our infrastructure / culture /situation
-Clinical excellence - I never got this logic. Is Great Ormonde Street Hospital co located with an adult hospital?
Surely the whole point of a children's hospital is to have excellence on a standalone basis.

Snake Plisken

****e location but there is no telling FF or FG that, suitable sites were identified beside Connolly Hospital and out beside Tallaght Hospital, but no just plough taxpayers money into the bottomless pit that is the James site! Joke of a country run by cowboys

AndrewJRenko

ElJeffe wrote: »

Good OP.

I'd completely forgot about this tbh and just presumed it would be finished or nearly finished by now. Then i looked into it and read an opening time by 2023 will be "very challenging". They've been at it years already for christ sake.

The 'good op' doubles the last public reported cost of the project and hasn't come back to explain it.

ExMachina1000

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

So you just decided posted the following in this thread while not at all implying that such issues were at play in the project with which this thread is concerned?



And then responded with similar when someone said that what you claim doesn't happen, not on public projects and certainly on those of this scale?

Yes. What is your point.

Northumbria Specialist Emergency Care Hospital, opened in June 2015

Cost of building, £75 million

It has 6 operating theatres for emergency and high risk surgery and a dedicated maternity theatre.

4 x-ray rooms.

2 CT scanners, two ultrasound systems, a cardiac catheter lab, an endoscopy room and an MRI scanner.

210 acute beds in seven specialty wards.

14 delivery rooms and two birthing pools in a co-located midwifery-led care unit.

20 en-suite single rooms on the maternity ward.

18 bed ICU.

36 treatment rooms in the emergency department.






Link:--> https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2015-06-16/in-numbers-how-did-it-cost-and-what-is-inside-cramlington-hospital

Pete_Cavan

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

- Parking IS a big issue in Ireland for a national hospital given the poor transport options nationally in comparison to other countries. Best international practice should not be the be all and end all and decisions should be made with due regard for this country and our infrastructure / culture /situation

We have created this parking issue by trying to allow everybody drive everywhere all the time. The NCH has good transport links, the population that can access it within an hour by walking, cycling, Luas, Dublin Bus and Heuston station is huge. Most of the daily journeys will be from staff and visitors who can and should use public transport. Children go there for long term treatment but because they scrapped their knee.

-Clinical excellence - I never got this logic. Is Great Ormonde Street Hospital co located with an adult hospital?
Surely the whole point of a children's hospital is to have excellence on a standalone basis.

GOS is a children's hospital on a scale which we don't need here. We need a smaller hospital for our smaller population and that means co-locating with adult services which creates the scale required. We could build the equivalent of GOS with lots of duplicated services but it would be too big, wouldn't see the level of use for it to operate efficiently and would cost a hell of a lot more than what we are building.

shesty

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I'm in the industry too. Not too long ago I was dealing with a QS who mentioned he used to work for BAM, he said he had to leave them because he saw the choice as either leaving them then or staying with them for the rest of his career as it meant falling out and burning bridges with so many others in the industry that it would be extremely difficult to move to another company if he stayed there for much longer.

Also in the industry.BAM's reputation is well known.

Yuser.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Northumbria Specialist Emergency Care Hospital, opened in June 2015

Cost of building, £75 million

It has 6 operating theatres for emergency and high risk surgery and a dedicated maternity theatre.

4 x-ray rooms.

2 CT scanners, two ultrasound systems, a cardiac catheter lab, an endoscopy room and an MRI scanner.

210 acute beds in seven specialty wards.

14 delivery rooms and two birthing pools in a co-located midwifery-led care unit.

20 en-suite single rooms on the maternity ward.

18 bed ICU.

36 treatment rooms in the emergency department.






Link:--> https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2015-06-16/in-numbers-how-did-it-cost-and-what-is-inside-cramlington-hospital

I'll bite lol..

Greenfield site

Yuser.

Yuser. wrote: »

I'll bite lol..

Greenfield site

I dont know, still good value at £75 million wouldn't you say?

RandRuns

According to Professor Paul Davis last January, the hospital is going to cost around €2.4 Billion.
This was before Covid related claims, which I'm hearing could add hundreds of millions.

If we take the €2.4 Billion figure, it works out at €5.1 Million per bed.

The previous most expensive hospital in the world, The Royal Adelaide, cost €1.5 Million per bed.

And they won't be adding a single bed into the system.

It is, quite simply, madness.

AndrewJRenko

RandRuns wrote: »

According to Professor Paul Davis last January, the hospital is going to cost around €2.4 Billion.
.

So the OP was just a billion out, you're saying?

I've a lot of time for the good Prof, but he's not a construction expert.

RandRuns

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So the OP was just a billion out, you're saying?

I've a lot of time for the good Prof, but he's not a construction expert.

Are you?

I made no reference to the OP's figure, I'm speaking about the only independent expert figure that's been made public - if you know better, I'd be very keen on hearing it.

I've spent my life in the industry, and from what I'm hearing about the level of claims going in, and the estimates of works yet to do, the Professors figure is probably accurate, if not a little low. Given the escalation of costs to date, and the absence of a real programme or cost breakdown, I can't see how it could be much, if any, lower.

The professor may not be a construction expert, but if you look at how he came to his figure, he utilised the expertise he does have, and used the figures that have already been published.

Amirani

beggars_bush wrote: »

the location isn't that bad. beside Heuston station, on the luas line, good road all the way in from the M50.

trying to make it the first paperless hospital in the world - now that is crazy.

James's is already paperless.

gctest50

Yuser. wrote: »

I'll bite lol..

Greenfield site

Oh no the consultants .... and all the excuses in the thread for this particular sh**show


Look at all the room to expand and build decent helipad that take SAR yokes

Skyfloater

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So the OP was just a billion out, you're saying?

I've a lot of time for the good Prof, but he's not a construction expert.

Would you have an estimate of the current cost?

AndrewJRenko

RandRuns wrote: »

Are you?

I made no reference to the OP's figure, I'm speaking about the only independent expert figure that's been made public - if you know better, I'd be very keen on hearing it.

I've spent my life in the industry, and from what I'm hearing about the level of claims going in, and the estimates of works yet to do, the Professors figure is probably accurate, if not a little low. Given the escalation of costs to date, and the absence of a real programme or cost breakdown, I can't see how it could be much, if any, lower.

The professor may not be a construction expert, but if you look at how he came to his figure, he utilised the expertise he does have, and used the figures that have already been published.

Does he have expertise that those on the project team don't have in terms of construction procurement and project management?

AndrewJRenko

Skyfloater wrote: »

Would you have an estimate of the current cost?

No, I don't.

But please, let's not let facts get in the way of the boards barstool experts who know everything about everything.

micosoft

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

Instead we could have a tribunal over why the only criteria for a children's hospital location is free parking and nothing to do with co-location, and that Culchies can only time their travel to Dublin during peak rush hour.

Perhaps the solution is to relocated the Centre of Dublin to the M50?

ExMachina1000

RandRuns wrote: »

According to Professor Paul Davis last January, the hospital is going to cost around €2.4 Billion.
This was before Covid related claims, which I'm hearing could add hundreds of millions.

If we take the €2.4 Billion figure, it works out at €5.1 Million per bed.

The previous most expensive hospital in the world, The Royal Adelaide, cost €1.5 Million per bed.

And they won't be adding a single bed into the system.

It is, quite simply, madness.

There are 14 different courtyards and gardens though

RandRuns

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Does he have expertise that those on the project team don't have in terms of construction procurement and project management?

The expertise that grossly underestimated the cost initially, and now issue quarterly increases?

The onsite "project team expertise" is expertise on maximising the amount of money this project will cost.
The procurement "project team expertise" was such that the initial costs, design, timeline, and contract were grossly inadequete.

If you have, as you seem to admit, no knowledge of construction, quantity surveying, or anything else related to this subject, it might be best not to tell those that do, that they are wrong, without at least providing some basis for that opinion.

RandRuns

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No, I don't.

But please, let's not let facts get in the way of the boards barstool experts who know everything about everything.

I'm not sure who that was directed at, but I can assure you that I am far from a "barstool expert" on this subject.

LuasSimon

Some Builders are going to become extremely well off people out of the Childrens Hospital, many of these are sizeable donors to Fine Gael coffers.

micosoft

crazy 88 wrote: »

Who would bring a sick child on the Luas?

Define sick? Not everything is an edition of Holby city. The majority if hospital attendees are outpatients. Many are fit to use public transport and want to use public transport. I'm not saying there are situations where the Luas is inappropriate but frankly it's getting tiresome where the only scenario is a life or death car trip to the Children's hospital A&E during rush hour traffic from Roscommon.

Skyfloater

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/93/Burj_Khalifa.jpg/1200px-Burj_Khalifa.jpg

So, at €2.4billion we could have built not one, but two of these!

BrianBoru00

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We have created this parking issue by trying to allow everybody drive everywhere all the time. The NCH has good transport links, the population that can access it within an hour by walking, cycling, Luas, Dublin Bus and Heuston station is huge. Most of the daily journeys will be from staff and visitors who can and should use public transport. Children go there for long term treatment but because they scrapped their knee..

Whether we've created it or not it's still the situation we're in. And it's because it's for long term /serious issues - those children are better off in a car than on public transport. It's all well and good saying staff should use public transport but many of them are coming from outside the pale where there isn't the level of public transport to get them there on time.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

GOS is a children's hospital on a scale which we don't need here. We need a smaller hospital for our smaller population and that means co-locating with adult services which creates the scale required. We could build the equivalent of GOS with lots of duplicated services but it would be too big, wouldn't see the level of use for it to operate efficiently and would cost a hell of a lot more than what we are building.

Can you give me an example?
I mean what you've said re scale seems a fair enough point but I'm curious as to why co location is a thing (one previous explanation was to facilitate transition for a child who is turning 18 which doesn't seem a plausible reason)?
For example - I've lifted this from OLHC website for cardiology:
"The Cardiac team consists of 9 consultant paediatric cardiologists and 3 consultant cardiothoracic surgeons, with a further 9 non consultant doctors. The nature of congenital heart disease and its treatment requires a large multi-disciplinary team (MDT). The MDT team includes nurses, clinical nurse specialists, advanced nurse practitioner, advanced nurse pracitioner candidates, health care assistants, anesthesiologists, intensivists, psychologists, social workers, physiotherapists, clinical nutritionists, a pharmacist, play specialist, spiritual councillors, household staff and a large administrative team"

Is it a case that this team for example is going to be transferred to the new hospital and if so what benefit are they getting from being beside St. James?
And are they not getting that now?

political analyst

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

It isin't just ambulances though. It is children that need to be driven to appointments. Getting across can be a nightmare

The parents would take traffic problems into account when deciding the time at which they start their journeys - some of them travel from as far as Cork or Galway anyway.

Everlong1

Muahahaha wrote: »

Connolly Hospital in Blanch was the other option where they have acres of green space for future expansions and where Coastguard helicopters could have landed which they cant do at the new Childrens Hospital in St James, there isnt the space and the helicopter pad to be installed there cannot hold the weight of them. Meaning children with severe and urgent brain injuries may not get to the hospital on time because the helicopter cannot land there. You would have thought this would be a key requirement on where to locate the hospital but no it wasnt.

Coastguard helis have been ferrying patients to James Street hospital for years. They land in the grounds of the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham where an ambulance picks up the patient and completes the journey to the hospital.

Outkast_IRE

I work in the industry and there are issues at so many levels of this project.



1. Leadership from the get go didnt have the power or inclination to make a decision and stick with it. Too many vested interests sticking their oar in so inevitably the site selection was ****ed, and those making the decision on site selection did not materially understand just how much work was needed before you could even start building the new building.



2. The only person leading a project such as this is someone with 30-40 years experience delivering projects on time and to a budget not a political favourite installed into the position or even someone from the hospital.



3. The original cost estimates are a disgrace by how far they are out and we should be pursuing that avenue as part of the investigation.



4. The design does not lend itself practically to a cost effective design. See those curved walls you put in everywhere , yeah they can be mutilple times more expensive by the time they are finished, yet this whole building is made of them. The knock on effects of these design decisions are huge.



5. Curved corridors - I cant run pipework, ductwork, electrical trays or anything else straight now , i need to follow the corridor. Another significant addition to time and money.



6. BAM - A worse shower there isnt but ultimately the government must of left themselves wide open otherwise it would be going through the courts or they would of got another contractor in.



7. Timing of the Projects - These are the types of projects you should be doing during the down turn , not coinciding with peak boom in the construction industry on private projects. This certainly didnt help as any tradesman worth his salt has his choice of 5 jobs at the moment.

RandRuns

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I work in the industry and there are issues at so many levels of this project.



1. Leadership from the get go didnt have the power or inclination to make a decision and stick with it. Too many vested interests sticking their oar in so inevitably the site selection was ****ed, and those making the decision on site selection did not materially understand just how much work was needed before you could even start building the new building.



2. The only person leading a project such as this is someone with 30-40 years experience delivering projects on time and to a budget not a political favourite installed into the position or even someone from the hospital.



3. The original cost estimates are a disgrace by how far they are out and we should be pursuing that avenue as part of the investigation.



4. The design does not lend itself practically to a cost effective design. See those curved walls you put in everywhere , yeah they can be mutilple times more expensive by the time they are finished, yet this whole building is made of them. The knock on effects of these design decisions are huge.



5. Curved corridors - I cant run pipework, ductwork, electrical trays or anything else straight now , i need to follow the corridor. Another significant addition to time and money.



6. BAM - A worse shower there isnt but ultimately the government must of left themselves wide open otherwise it would be going through the courts or they would of got another contractor in.



7. Timing of the Projects - These are the types of projects you should be doing during the down turn , not coinciding with peak boom in the construction industry on private projects. This certainly didnt help as any tradesman worth his salt has his choice of 5 jobs at the moment.

Excellent points.

When I saw the curved walls in the original design, I thought to myself "somebody let an architect play unsupervised"

Pete_Cavan

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Whether we've created it or not it's still the situation we're in. And it's because it's for long term /serious issues - those children are better off in a car than on public transport. It's all well and good saying staff should use public transport but many of them are coming from outside the pale where there isn't the level of public transport to get them there on time.

Most of the medical staff will be transferring from the existing children's hospitals so the majority are likely Dublin based already. Most will be switching from Crumlin which is not far away. There will be a huge number of non-white collar jobs for admin, porters, catering, cleaning, etc. which are likely to be from locally based people, not people commuting big distances. At the end of the day, people can make their own way to work as they see fit, if they choose to drive regardless of long that takes, that is their choice. Public transport options are there. We shouldn't be designing a national hospital to suit potential staff living a long way from Dublin.

Can you give me an example?
I mean what you've said re scale seems a fair enough point but I'm curious as to why co location is a thing (one previous explanation was to facilitate transition for a child who is turning 18 which doesn't seem a plausible reason)?
For example - I've lifted this from OLHC website for cardiology:
"The Cardiac team consists of 9 consultant paediatric cardiologists and 3 consultant cardiothoracic surgeons, with a further 9 non consultant doctors. The nature of congenital heart disease and its treatment requires a large multi-disciplinary team (MDT). The MDT team includes nurses, clinical nurse specialists, advanced nurse practitioner, advanced nurse pracitioner candidates, health care assistants, anesthesiologists, intensivists, psychologists, social workers, physiotherapists, clinical nutritionists, a pharmacist, play specialist, spiritual councillors, household staff and a large administrative team"

Is it a case that this team for example is going to be transferred to the new hospital and if so what benefit are they getting from being beside St. James?
And are they not getting that now?

James’s is Ireland’s largest adult teaching and research-intensive hospital with 39 clinical specialities and numerous national facilities. Some of these have highly specialised staff and equipment. For a population as small as ours, you can only provide this in one location, having them in two locations means buying twice as much incredibly expensive equipment and having twice as much staff each doing half the work. If the NCH isn't located where this is, you have to bring the patients to it and back which is not efficient. No patients or teams will have to be transferred now, thats the point. Not everything is different between adults and children, the person turning 18 means nothing to a serious disease.