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Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam
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Certainly going to be a world famous building if they finish it...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_buildings0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »This is the second time you quoted this. It is one bloody team! Do you think the location of the NCH should be based on where that one team can operate from? There are lots of facilities and staff in James's which aren't available at Crumlin or any other hospital in the state. Even if they could continue to operate at a different location, I'm sure that team would benefit from operating from a bigger facility with more patients coming through and a bigger pool of staff together to share experiences. Scale is important in health care, particularly as it gets more specialised.
I know its one team. But the question is still relevant and you haven't actually answered it. For that one team what difference is it making to them on a day to day basis how far they are from St. James?
Again my understanding is one of the main reasons for co location is cross fertilisation of skills - that by working sometimes in paediatric care and sometimes in adult care they improve they're skill set. That can still be done easily were the hospital to be located in Blanchardstown.
The relevant equipment from everything I've read will be in the children's hospital.
The Connolly site still ticked all the boxes for co locating with an acute hospital.
It also offered plenty of space for future expansion and the construction of a national maternity hospital achieving tri-location.
It's the same distance from Castlenock train station as St. James from Heuston and most importantly its located on the main arterial route in the country.
It provides parking and expansion for parking as the site builds up. While you may be correct in stating that only a small percentage of visits each day will be by sick children - they are surely the most important people to be thinking of.0 -
BrianBoru00 wrote: »I know its one team. But the question is still relevant and you haven't actually answered it. For that one team what difference is it making to them on a day to day basis how far they are from St. James?
Again my understanding is one of the main reasons for co location is cross fertilisation of skills - that by working sometimes in paediatric care and sometimes in adult care they improve they're skill set. That can still be done easily were the hospital to be located in Blanchardstown.
The relevant equipment from everything I've read will be in the children's hospital.
The Connolly site still ticked all the boxes for co locating with an acute hospital.
It also offered plenty of space for future expansion and the construction of a national maternity hospital achieving tri-location.
It's the same distance from Castlenock train station as St. James from Heuston and most importantly its located on the main arterial route in the country.
It provides parking and expansion for parking as the site builds up. While you may be correct in stating that only a small percentage of visits each day will be by sick children - they are surely the most important people to be thinking of.
So you suspect one team may be able to operate just as well away from James's and just assume that applies to every team? There is far more to these hospitals than this one team that suits your angle.
Connolly Hospital doesn't have anything like the same level of specialist facilities or staff that James's has. Connolly is a Model 3 hospital, the same as Naas General or Cavan General Hospital, it is not is the same league as James's. Bringing Connolly up to James's standards would be huge and it isn't easy to relocate such services. As I said before, you cant just shut down and move these kind of facilities, particularly as you have patients receiving treatment at all times. You need to build and buy everything required new, duplicating everything, then you are left with all this incredibly expensive equipment and no use for it.
Of course the sick children are the most important people, that is why every report has recommended co-locating with an adult hospital of sufficient scale and specialities. The constant argument about putting it somewhere else centres entirely on people being able to drive to it, nothing to do with sick children. We have two satellite facilities beside the M50 which will take the one off journeys for emergencies and outpatient appointments, while the longer term care is done in a facility co-located with the existing largest adult hospital sharing facilities.
The NCH has expansion capacity for the 20% increase which was required under the project brief. It's ridiculous that people keep repeating these falsehoods here, proves they know nothing whatsoever about the project.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »....
The NCH has expansion capacity for the 20% increase which was required under the project brief. It's ridiculous that people keep repeating these falsehoods here, proves they know nothing whatsoever about the project.
Many hospitals have increased 50% in a couple of decades. Maybe it was set at 20% so as not to eliminate this site.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: ».... Bringing Connolly up to James's standards would be huge and it isn't easy to relocate such services...
This project IS relocating many such services to this site.
By huge do you mean more expensive than this site. Because very little is as huge as this project in the entire WORLD.0 -
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Regarding falsehoods ....Pete_Cavan wrote: »....The constant argument about putting it somewhere else centres entirely on people being able to drive to it...
So cost, expansion, access for 2/3 of the population NOT in Dublin haven't been mentioned. Its only been about driving to it.
Falsehoods? Glasshouses in all fairness.0 -
AndrewJRenko wrote: »Tell you what - next time you or your family member is facing a serious medical issue, we'll bypass all those bloody medical experts and we'll organise your treatment based on what the Boards experts will say. Are you happy to put your future in the hands of Boards.ie advisors?
Give over will you.
You're trying to shut down people opining on the location of the hospital, which was extremely contentious even among people in the medical field. The owner and developer of the Blackrock Clinic even came out against James'.
You don't appear to be much in the way of an expert on this yourself, so by your own metrics, why not log off and go down the handball alley to pass your time that way yourself?0 -
I worked with this building company before and I will say two things about them ,they are handy at getting government contracts and they are the greatest shower of scumbags I have ever m..
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do you mean BAM? If yes, can confirm it. Started interview process with them, didn't attend the second interview because they already behaved like scumbags, as you said.
Somebody earlier in the thread wrote they were taken to the High Court? Was that a joke or is it true?0 -
BrianBoru00 wrote: »I know its one team. But the question is still relevant and you haven't actually answered it. For that one team what difference is it making to them on a day to day basis how far they are from St. James?
Again my understanding is one of the main reasons for co location is cross fertilisation of skills - that by working sometimes in paediatric care and sometimes in adult care they improve they're skill set. That can still be done easily were the hospital to be located in Blanchardstown.
The relevant equipment from everything I've read will be in the children's hospital.
The Connolly site still ticked all the boxes for co locating with an acute hospital.
It also offered plenty of space for future expansion and the construction of a national maternity hospital achieving tri-location.
It's the same distance from Castlenock train station as St. James from Heuston and most importantly its located on the main arterial route in the country.
It provides parking and expansion for parking as the site builds up. While you may be correct in stating that only a small percentage of visits each day will be by sick children - they are surely the most important people to be thinking of.
There are many specialities where we do not have a paediatric equivalent and so is either fully or partially provided by adult doctors (Eg certain sub-specialities in burns/plastics, cardiothoracics, orthopaedics, interventional radiology). For this reason the best outcomes in acute care would be if we co-located with a site that did have these medics on site. As by far the largest hospital, SJH is the best option.
Connolly would offer zero benefit to the NCH from a speciality point of view because it is a general hospital, not a tertiary hospital0 -
Anita Blow wrote: »T...
Connolly would offer zero benefit to the NCH from a speciality point of view because it is a general hospital, not a tertiary hospital
As is. It wouldn't be left as is.
To get James to this point is costing a vast amounts of money. Would it have cost more or less on another site. Was that a factor in the location. Was it money no object? Seems like it was.0 -
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As is. It wouldn't be left as is.
To get James to this point is costing a vast amounts of money. Would it have cost more or less on another site. Was that a factor in the location. Was it money no object? Seems like it was.
It would have cost many multiples the cost of the NCH to re-locate James', which is 3x the size of both the NCH & Connolly along with many national services on-site like the IBTS.
Connolly makes sense from an access perspective and absolutely trumps SJH in that regard, but there is zero comparison from a clinical point of view. A general hospital offers nothing to the NCH and it simply would be a non-runner to re-build the largest hospital in the state and all the additional clinical infrastructure currently located there. The cost would be eye watering0 -
Anita Blow wrote: »... ... The cost would be eye watering
The cost IS eye watering and it's not over yet.
You can't sell James as cheaper location. A lot of the higher costs have been caused by the excessive ground works due to the location. Nothing to do with facilities in the hospital. You wouldn't have those costs somewhere else. How much of James are they rebuilding. How much is left of the original hospital? 30%?0 -
The cost IS eye watering and it's not over yet.
You can't sell James as cheaper location. A lot of the higher costs have been caused by the excessive ground works due to the location. Nothing to do with facilities in the hospital. You wouldn't have those costs somewhere else. How much of James are they rebuilding. How much is left of the original hospital? 30%?
I’m not selling the location as cheaper. I’m selling the idea that building one as opposed to two hospitals (with one hospital being 3 times as large + a spate of national infrastructure) as cheaper.
They’re not rebuilding any of SJH. The adult hospital is untouched apart from some prefabs that the physio department occupied which was removed.0 -
Well something will have to be built in that nice big open, well located Connolly space one of these days.
With the way they're building on every sq meter they can find these days, it shouldn't be too long.
Maybe they could have a helicopter pad in Blanch anyway, do it higgildy piggildy Irish style.
So that instead of someone being brought by chopper directly to an appropriately kitted out city center hospital, they first get landed in Blanch and then transferred.
That sounds like the usual half assed approach Im used to hearing about.0 -
Anita Blow wrote: »I’m not selling the location as cheaper. I’m selling the idea that building one as opposed to two hospitals (with one hospital being 3 times as large + a spate of national infrastructure) as cheaper.
They’re not rebuilding any of SJH. The adult hospital is untouched apart from some prefabs that the physio department occupied which was removed.
When this is finished we might indeed discover the cost of this one project indeed is higher than building 2 or 3 other projects.
They are long past the point of no return. So it's moot discussing it now.0 -
Well something will have to be built in that nice big open, well located Connolly space one of these days.
With the way they're building on every sq meter they can find these days, it shouldn't be too long.
Maybe they could have a helicopter pad in Blanch anyway, do it higgildy piggildy Irish style.
So that instead of someone being brought by chopper directly to an appropriately kitted out city center hospital, they first get landed in Blanch and then transferred.
That sounds like the usual half assed approach Im used to hearing about.
Isn't the plan to land at Kilmainham Hospital or at a ground helipad at Tallaght Hospital.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/coast-guard-cant-land-its-helicopters-on-national-childrens-hospital-roof-37870682.html0 -
Not a scam, just by now routine clusterfück where no one is accountable, no one loses their job so we just bumble along, fcuk good money after bad until it (eventually) gets built.0
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Isn't the plan to land at Kilmainham Hospital or at a ground helipad at Tallaght Hospital.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/coast-guard-cant-land-its-helicopters-on-national-childrens-hospital-roof-37870682.html
There is a helipad being built on the NCH, I'm sure they'll just land there!0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »There is a helipad being built on the NCH, I'm sure they'll just land there!
It can only take the lighter helicopter afaik. The larger ones have to go elsewhere and transfer. Maybe that's changed. Coincidentally the Mater site also had some issue with helicopters. But I guess they couldn't make it a requirement otherwise as it would have ruled out these sites.
Obviously if you want to remove competition from a tender you do the opposite. You make something a requirement that eliminates them.0 -
Wait till everyone gets wind of the bus gate they are proposing as part of bus connects0
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The cost IS eye watering and it's not over yet.
You can't sell James as cheaper location. A lot of the higher costs have been caused by the excessive ground works due to the location. Nothing to do with facilities in the hospital. You wouldn't have those costs somewhere else. How much of James are they rebuilding. How much is left of the original hospital? 30%?
what kind of excessive groundworks, what's so difficult with the ground there? it's not even a high rise building, it's just 7 storeys at it's highest.
can't believe it's more about the presumably unsuited location than about this ridiculous costs in this thread.
the title of this thread sums it up nicely, this project is a scam, a money pit, fraud on the taxpayer of the highest order. nothing in this project justifies the mindblowing sum of 2.4 billion. there are numerous projects on this planet much, much more complex and in/with much more difficult conditions and not even close to this sum.
just to give a perspective, the burj khalifa cost 1.5 billion, this list somebody posted before is very helpful.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_buildings
I really would like to know where the money is going.0 -
I'm trying to educate myself. I'm not a medical expert. Here's another team : "The orthopaedic service in CHI at Crumlin comprises consultant surgeons, non consultant hospital doctors, anaesthesiologists, numerous practitioners in allied health disciplines, nurses, and medical administrators, as well as hospital management. We engage regularly with our colleagues in other medical disciplines as required. "Pete_Cavan wrote: »So you suspect one team may be able to operate just as well away from James's and just assume that applies to every team? There is far more to these hospitals than this one team that suits your angle.
I quoted you'r post initially because it seemed a reasonable point but now that I've delved deeper into it and asked for a practical explanation you either don't have one or aren't knowledgeable enough on the subject.
It is quite simple though - Those teams are currently in Crumlin. Presumably they will move to to the NCH en masse. Its a twenty minute drive for a consultant or surgeon from St. James to go to JCM site if required.
I just want to know what those teams are going to be doing differently that they're not doing now. What specialist equipment do they need from St. James? Surely if anything the equipment will be in the NCH itself - we're going to be paying 3 billion.. A Cat scanner and an MRI together (which are two of the most expensive pieces of equipment in a hospital) cost in the region of 6 million- don't tell me that the NCH is going to do differently to Crumlin and start moving children to St. James main hospital for certain procedures.
1. All of the reports suggest it should be co located with an acute hospital which JCM is. Yes St. James is obviously superior but there seems to have been too much weighting given to St. James position as the top teaching hospital when clearly JCM is an acute hospital.Pete_Cavan wrote: »Connolly Hospital doesn't have anything like the same level of specialist facilities or staff that James's has. Connolly is a Model 3 hospital, the same as Naas General or Cavan General Hospital, it is not is the same league as James's. Bringing Connolly up to James's standards would be huge and it isn't easy to relocate such services. As I said before, you cant just shut down and move these kind of facilities, particularly as you have patients receiving treatment at all times. You need to build and buy everything required new, duplicating everything, then you are left with all this incredibly expensive equipment and no use for it.
2. Why can't you just move these facilities?
Like if a child is on a life support machine you're not going to be transferring them anyhow. Crumlin/Temple street aren't closing on a Friday and NCH opening on the Saturday - theres going to be several months presumably of a transfer while equipment/ departments are transferred.
You keep rehashing this argument without giving an example.
Who's repeating falsehoods? It's not rocket science. It's common sense. Google maps will show the vast differences in expansion room around both campuses.Pete_Cavan wrote: »The NCH has expansion capacity for the 20% increase which was required under the project brief. It's ridiculous that people keep repeating these falsehoods here, proves they know nothing whatsoever about the project.
It's irrelevant what was under the project brief as most people are suggesting the project brief was obviously flawed when it didn't provide for significant expansion as a greenfield or JCM site would have allowed for0 -
what kind of excessive groundworks, what's so difficult with the ground there? it's not even a high rise building, it's just 7 storeys at it's highest. ....
I stopped following the project in detail when they decided on this location. But I heard due to lack of space they had to dig down to create parking and I assume other spaces. They also ran into major water and sewer systems that were unexpected that cost loads to resolve. I'm open to correction on this. But they were a long time getting above ground this project. Someone else might know the details. But that's not unusual on an old site. Just wouldn't be an issue on a Greenfield site.
Maybe it's been over stated in the media.0 -
BrianBoru00 wrote: »I'm trying to educate myself. I'm not a medical expert. Here's another team : "The orthopaedic service in CHI at Crumlin comprises consultant surgeons, non consultant hospital doctors, anaesthesiologists, numerous practitioners in allied health disciplines, nurses, and medical administrators, as well as hospital management. We engage regularly with our colleagues in other medical disciplines as required. "
I quoted you'r post initially because it seemed a reasonable point but now that I've delved deeper into it and asked for a practical explanation you either don't have one or aren't knowledgeable enough on the subject.
It is quite simple though - Those teams are currently in Crumlin. Presumably they will move to to the NCH en masse. Its a twenty minute drive for a consultant or surgeon from St. James to go to JCM site if required.
I just want to know what those teams are going to be doing differently that they're not doing now. What specialist equipment do they need from St. James? Surely if anything the equipment will be in the NCH itself - we're going to be paying 3 billion.. A Cat scanner and an MRI together (which are two of the most expensive pieces of equipment in a hospital) cost in the region of 6 million- don't tell me that the NCH is going to do differently to Crumlin and start moving children to St. James main hospital for certain procedures.
1. All of the reports suggest it should be co located with an acute hospital which JCM is. Yes St. James is obviously superior but there seems to have been too much weighting given to St. James position as the top teaching hospital when clearly JCM is an acute hospital.
2. Why can't you just move these facilities?
Like if a child is on a life support machine you're not going to be transferring them anyhow. Crumlin/Temple street aren't closing on a Friday and NCH opening on the Saturday - theres going to be several months presumably of a transfer while equipment/ departments are transferred.
You keep rehashing this argument without giving an example.
Who's repeating falsehoods? It's not rocket science. It's common sense. Google maps will show the vast differences in expansion room around both campuses.
It's irrelevant what was under the project brief as most people are suggesting the project brief was obviously flawed when it didn't provide for significant expansion as a greenfield or JCM site would have allowed for
I am a paediatric doctor.
There are many instances where we require cross cover from adult doctors- cardiothoracics, orthopaedics (scoliosis surgery is provided by adult orthopaedic surgeons for example), neurosurgery, burns & plastics. Adult hospitals also house a lot of highly specialised infrastructure which we don't have in paediatrics because we don't have the numbers to justify them (SJH has the burns unit & national radiotherapy centre for head and neck cancers for example, many surgical patients from Temple St have to be sent to Beaumont which has a paediatric ward for this reason).
Kids today still of course have access to all this but separation of services means it's inefficient, untimely and impacts the quality of their care. If a child experiences a life-threatening burn they need to be taken to a Children's hospital because that's where the paediatric emergency doctors, anaesthetists, nurses are but it's not where the plastic surgeon who will operating on them is. Instead that person has to travel across the city to get there, delaying their care by critical minutes.
Many blood samples need to be sent to St James' for processing (because this is the largest and most specialised lab), which involves ordering a taxi to send the sample to SJH and unneccessarily wastes time in often urgent situations.
Some of this is due to the inefficiency in the HSE and poorly allocated resources, but some of it is also due to the fact that kids just don't get sick in the same numbers that adults do and so in a country as small as Ireland we do not have the population to justify these standalone facilities for paediatrics. This is why we rely on adult hospitals and why co-location is essential.
From a purely clinical perspective, Connolly is a complete non-runner. It is a general hospital on the level of Cavan, Naas etc (as mentioned above) and so offers zero of the specialist expertise, infrastructure and facilities that are the whole purpose of co-location in the first place. The only suitable sites for co-location are the major Dublin hospitals, all of which are plagued by awful access.
Absolutely agree with all who say that heads should roll for the cost inflation and no hospital should cost this much. I also agree that access is a major issue. But from a clinical perspective and what will actually lead to improved outcomes for sick children, the case for co-location with any of the major Dublin hospitals is indisputable.0 -
I don't think anyone was asked co-location at a cost of 2 billion and the effect that will have on the health services other resources.
Once this project is finished. Will kids no longer be referred to Beaumont or Cappagh and similar?
As for Blanch it shortsightedly sold off if at lot of land for it's rebuild. That didn't go to plan. But end result is, that while it still has a lot of space its not as big as it once was. I assume any move to somewhere like Blanch would not have left Blanch a general hospital. It would have been upgraded.
That ship sailed a good few years ago. Too late now.0 -
Anita Blow wrote: »I am a paediatric doctor.
There are many instances where we require cross cover from adult doctors- cardiothoracics, orthopaedics (scoliosis surgery is provided by adult orthopaedic surgeons for example), neurosurgery, burns & plastics. Adult hospitals also house a lot of highly specialised infrastructure which we don't have in paediatrics because we don't have the numbers to justify them (SJH has the burns unit & national radiotherapy centre for head and neck cancers for example, many surgical patients from Temple St have to be sent to Beaumont which has a paediatric ward for this reason).
Kids today still of course have access to all this but separation of services means it's inefficient, untimely and impacts the quality of their care. If a child experiences a life-threatening burn they need to be taken to a Children's hospital because that's where the paediatric emergency doctors, anaesthetists, nurses are but it's not where the plastic surgeon who will operating on them is. Instead that person has to travel across the city to get there, delaying their care by critical minutes.
Many blood samples need to be sent to St James' for processing (because this is the largest and most specialised lab), which involves ordering a taxi to send the sample to SJH and unneccessarily wastes time in often urgent situations.
ome of this is due to the inefficiency in the HSE and poorly allocated resources, but some of it is also due to the fact that kids just don't get sick in the same numbers that adults do and so in a country as small as Ireland we do not have the population to justify these standalone facilities for paediatrics. This is Swhy we rely on adult hospitals and why co-location is essential.
From a purely clinical perspective, Connolly is a complete non-runner. It is a general hospital on the level of Cavan, Naas etc (as mentioned above) and so offers zero of the specialist expertise, infrastructure and facilities that are the whole purpose of co-location in the first place. The only suitable sites for co-location are the major Dublin hospitals, all of which are plagued by awful access.
Absolutely agree with all who say that heads should roll for the cost inflation and no hospital should cost this much. I also agree that access is a major issue. But from a clinical perspective and what will actually lead to improved outcomes for sick children, the case for co-location with any of the major Dublin hospitals is indisputable.
Would it not have made sense though to upgrade JCM over the course of a few years to ensure that it's where the services should be located and effectively moving St. James over the course of a few years. (I know the horse has bolted) .
Like it's not as though this hasn't been in planning for years.
Could we not for example even still move the top blood lab from St. James to JCM?0 -
I think the plan was centralise lots of resources into a few in Dublin etc. then slowly wind down and pull all the resources out side of major cities. I know centres of excellence and all that..
A few years back before they rebuilt it looked like they might close Connolly.0 -
I don't think anyone was asked co-location at a cost of 2 billion and the effect that will have on the health services other resources.
Once this project is finished. Will kids no longer be referred to Beaumont or Cappagh and similar?
As for Blanch it shortsightedly sold off if at lot of land for it's rebuild. That didn't go to plan. But end result is, that while it still has a lot of space its not as big as it once was. I assume any move to somewhere like Blanch would not have left Blanch a general hospital. It would have been upgraded.
That ship sailed a good few years ago. Too late now.
The cost of the NCH is unfortunately draining other healthcare resources. A lot of projects in both paeds and adult medicine have been stalled because the ever increasing cost of the NCH is vacuuming all the money.
When the hospital is finished we definitely won't be sending kids to Beaumont any longer. I'm not sure about Cappagh- Cappagh kids was recently set up so I guess it's the prerogative of the orthopaedic consultants there whether it continues or not.
I think in theory that would be reasonable. In practice though the cost would be prohibitive and if you were waiting to upgrade Connolly from 400 to 1600 beds and to transfer all the national infrastructure there before transferring the kid's hospitals, you would be waiting decades.BrianBoru00 wrote: »Would it not have made sense though to upgrade JCM over the course of a few years to ensure that it's where the services should be located and effectively moving St. James over the course of a few years. (I know the horse has bolted) .
Like it's not as though this hasn't been in planning for years.
Could we not for example even still move the top blood lab from St. James to JCM?
Without taking into account the inevitable cost inflation that happened with the NCH, I'd imagine the cost of rebuilding SJH would be billions. It would've been a hard sell to the general public 6/7 years ago to rebuild SJH at a cost of billions in addition to the NCH.
It wouldn't make sense to move the lab from SJH to Connolly. Every hospital requires it's own lab and the expertise and equipment in that lab will be a function of the size and expertise of it's hospital. Connolly is a general hospital with no national services so it's lab would just run standard tests like blood counts, inflammatory markers, markers of organ function. SJH is a 1200-bed national hospital with several specialist services and so it can justify an on-site lab with specialist personnel/equipment and requires on-site access to this 24/7. It wouldn't make sense to move that lab off-site away from such services and it would have a detrimental impact on care if we had to courier hundreds or thousands of blood samples every day from the main hospital in the country to a small general hospital.0 -
the title of this thread sums it up nicely, this project is a scam, a money pit, fraud on the taxpayer of the highest order. nothing in this project justifies the mindblowing sum of 2.4 billion.
Can you be specific about who is scamming who please?BrianBoru00 wrote: »I'm trying to educate myself. I'm not a medical expert. Here's another team : "The orthopaedic service in CHI at Crumlin comprises consultant surgeons, non consultant hospital doctors, anaesthesiologists, numerous practitioners in allied health disciplines, nurses, and medical administrators, as well as hospital management. We engage regularly with our colleagues in other medical disciplines as required. "
I quoted you'r post initially because it seemed a reasonable point but now that I've delved deeper into it and asked for a practical explanation you either don't have one or aren't knowledgeable enough on the subject.
It is quite simple though - Those teams are currently in Crumlin. Presumably they will move to to the NCH en masse. Its a twenty minute drive for a consultant or surgeon from St. James to go to JCM site if required.
I just want to know what those teams are going to be doing differently that they're not doing now. What specialist equipment do they need from St. James? Surely if anything the equipment will be in the NCH itself - we're going to be paying 3 billion.. A Cat scanner and an MRI together (which are two of the most expensive pieces of equipment in a hospital) cost in the region of 6 million- don't tell me that the NCH is going to do differently to Crumlin and start moving children to St. James main hospital for certain procedures.
1. All of the reports suggest it should be co located with an acute hospital which JCM is. Yes St. James is obviously superior but there seems to have been too much weighting given to St. James position as the top teaching hospital when clearly JCM is an acute hospital.
2. Why can't you just move these facilities?
Like if a child is on a life support machine you're not going to be transferring them anyhow. Crumlin/Temple street aren't closing on a Friday and NCH opening on the Saturday - theres going to be several months presumably of a transfer while equipment/ departments are transferred.
You keep rehashing this argument without giving an example.
Who's repeating falsehoods? It's not rocket science. It's common sense. Google maps will show the vast differences in expansion room around both campuses.
It's irrelevant what was under the project brief as most people are suggesting the project brief was obviously flawed when it didn't provide for significant expansion as a greenfield or JCM site would have allowed forBrianBoru00 wrote: »Would it not have made sense though to upgrade JCM over the course of a few years to ensure that it's where the services should be located and effectively moving St. James over the course of a few years. (I know the horse has bolted) .
Like it's not as though this hasn't been in planning for years.
Could we not for example even still move the top blood lab from St. James to JCM?BrianBoru00 wrote: »I know its one team. But the question is still relevant and you haven't actually answered it. For that one team what difference is it making to them on a day to day basis how far they are from St. James?
Again my understanding is one of the main reasons for co location is cross fertilisation of skills - that by working sometimes in paediatric care and sometimes in adult care they improve they're skill set. That can still be done easily were the hospital to be located in Blanchardstown.
The relevant equipment from everything I've read will be in the children's hospital.
The Connolly site still ticked all the boxes for co locating with an acute hospital.
It also offered plenty of space for future expansion and the construction of a national maternity hospital achieving tri-location.
It's the same distance from Castlenock train station as St. James from Heuston and most importantly its located on the main arterial route in the country.
It provides parking and expansion for parking as the site builds up. While you may be correct in stating that only a small percentage of visits each day will be by sick children - they are surely the most important people to be thinking of.
Do you think that any of the points you raise were not considered by the group of eminent experts that produced the Dolphin Report?
Maybe they didn't make it a requirement because it's not a requirement for a tertiary care facility?It can only take the lighter helicopter afaik. The larger ones have to go elsewhere and transfer. Maybe that's changed. Coincidentally the Mater site also had some issue with helicopters. But I guess they couldn't make it a requirement otherwise as it would have ruled out these sites.
The project team is reporting to the PAC on a regular basis, along with the usual reporting to the Department. What additional accountability would you be expecting?whisky_galore wrote: »Not a scam, just by now routine clusterfück where no one is accountable, no one loses their job so we just bumble along, fcuk good money after bad until it (eventually) gets built.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/national-childrens-hospital-sues-contractor-in-row-over-construction-contract-39097269.htmlSomebody earlier in the thread wrote they were taken to the High Court? Was that a joke or is it true?PearseCork92 wrote: »Give over will you.
You're trying to shut down people opining on the location of the hospital, which was extremely contentious even among people in the medical field. The owner and developer of the Blackrock Clinic even came out against James'.
You don't appear to be much in the way of an expert on this yourself, so by your own metrics, why not log off and go down the handball alley to pass your time that way yourself?
I'm not trying to shut anything down. People are welcome to opine, just as I am welcome to opine about the opines that people are opining. 95% of the stuff on this thread is nonsense - gossip, public sector bashing, vague claims with no detail.
RRand seems to know their stuff about construction. Anita seems to know her stuff about the clinical issues. Pete Cavan seems to know his stuff on some of the broader issues.
The rest is just oul lads sitting on bar stools kidding themselves that they know everything about everything, when actually, they know very, very little.
Just curious - is 'go down the handball alley' a euphemism for something?0 -
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BrianBoru00 wrote: »Would it not have made sense though to upgrade JCM over the course of a few years to ensure that it's where the services should be located and effectively moving St. James over the course of a few years. (I know the horse has bolted) .
Like it's not as though this hasn't been in planning for years.
Could we not for example even still move the top blood lab from St. James to JCM?
Do you honestly think that building the NCH + another hospital several times larger + replacing several national centres of excellence would be cheaper than just building the NCH and tying in with the existing centres of excellence? Think about it for a couple of minutes. Do you really think expanding the scope of the project several fold, adding years to the timeline and greatly increasing the complexity by having to coordinate the transfer of many more seriously ill people (not just children but now also adults) will reduce costs?
The logistics of moving James's would be mindblowing. As I explained before, you can't just move all these highly specialist services and equipment required from James's to a new hospital en mass overnight. You would have to leave everything running at James's to treat patients and set up all new at the new location and get it up and running. Then you have to have an orderly transfer with both centres operating for a period. This type of facilities and equipment costs an absolute fortune, things which our country can only afford one of. The cost of the duplication would be enormous and be a huge asset management challenge. The purchase and serving contracts for one piece of specialist medical equipment can cost millions. Obviously you run down one thing and replace it as it reaches end of life. It would be impossible to have everything in a hospital the size of James's approach end of life around the same time so you will inevitably be replacing equipment with years of life left it them. Any delay to the construction project could also see things having to operate longer than desired because you can't set up the replacement at the old hospital, it needs to wait until the new one is ready. The risks and potential cost and healthcare implications of any delay would dwarf the current NCH project.0
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