Why not reduce syllabus in some cases for State exams?

political analyst

If I remember correctly, I read that there will be a greater choice of questions in Leaving Cert exams because of the obvious difficulties that students are currently experiencing.

Why hasn't the Department of Education considered reducing the syllabus of each of some subjects for the Leaving Cert in order to reduce the pressure on students?

Alex86Eire

Different teachers will cover different sections at different periods of time.

RealJohn

political analyst wrote: »

Why hasn't the Department of Education considered reducing the syllabus of each of some subjects for the Leaving Cert in order to reduce the pressure on students?

Probably because the syllabus doesn’t exist to facilitate exams, and because the purpose of education is not to produce leaving cert results. The syllabus is what students should know, not what they should be examined on.

political analyst

RealJohn wrote: »

Probably because the syllabus doesn’t exist to facilitate exams, and because the purpose of education is not to produce leaving cert results. The syllabus is what students should know, not what they should be examined on.

That's not what many LC students think. The focus is usually on getting the course in each subject covered in time for the exams.

mirrorwall14

The change to the LC maths papers makes almost no difference. You can’t leave anything out as anything could be in the questions. It’s incredibly unfair on students.

Equally in music they just slashed two sections off the listening paper which some teachers had already covered and made almost no change to the composing papers which would have actually helped a lot.

RealJohn

political analyst wrote: »

That's not what many LC students think. The focus is usually on getting the course in each subject covered in time for the exams.

Maybe someone should tell them then? What do you call those guys who help them learn the truth about stuff again?

VANG1

As a parent all I know is that the students are under pressure to complete courses in the reduced time due to original lock down. The LC is bad enough without extra stress.

RealJohn

VANG1 wrote: »

As a parent all I know is that the students are under pressure to complete courses in the reduced time due to original lock down. The LC is bad enough without extra stress.

That was their excuse for cancelling the exams last time. Maybe parents will listen this time: the students will be under stress anyway. The stress will not be less if the exams are changed (even more). They’ll just be stressed the same amount about something else. Stress is part of life. They need to learn to deal with it, and parents should start helping them cope with it, rather than try to eliminate stress from their lives, because the latter isn’t possible.

History Queen

RealJohn wrote: »

That was their excuse for cancelling the exams last time. Maybe parents will listen this time: the students will be under stress anyway. The stress will not be less if the exams are changed (even more). They’ll just be stressed the same amount about something else. Stress is part of life. They need to learn to deal with it, and parents should start helping them cope with it, rather than try to eliminate stress from their lives, because the latter isn’t possible.

I agree with this, the rush by society of late to remove all forms of stress from the lives of our young people, is doing them a disservice and preventing them from learning how to cope and manage stress themselves.

amacca

VANG1 wrote: »

As a parent all I know is that the students are under pressure to complete courses in the reduced time due to original lock down. The LC is bad enough without extra stress.

I kind of agree they should do something to facilitate LC this year ...maybe even more choice but just on the stress thing in general that goes on in non-covid times

I recently looked back at historical exam papers at both LC and JC I had to do and then further back again....
The level now imo is very much less than what people were expected to do in the past ...at least in the subjects I'm familiar with.

I don't know how the utter **** there are so many stressed out students out when countless thousands of students seemed to make their way through much more difficult exams (although perhaps not in maths) for decades before this with much less strife.

I think and I suppose it's only a personal theory....they are stressed out because

1) theres are a huge cohort of them that never get a good kick in the arse when they should and told to get on with it and make an effort/do what you are told...doing what you are told is optional for an increasing number of them.

2) the system isn't really allowed make them do even some of the work they are supposed to be doing do to be able to undertake the exam and as a result increasing numbers of them can do SFA when it comes near exam time of course they are feeling stressed because they've been getting away with doing SFA all along and they know it.

3) there's a whole background noise of media sources telling them it's stressful and they should be stressed and a hype and build up to state exams in this country that isnt particularly helpful to the student at least....theres probably a little cottage industry of educational psychologists and exam advice givers/articles and "educationalists" making a living out of dubious research that stand to gain out of the hysteria as well

4) they are facilitated in being stressed by weak or almost absentee parenting instead of being brought up with a bit of cop on resilience and something of a work ethic.

5) a lot of them are hyperstimulated and have access to so many more distractions than even students 20/30 yrs ago.....i don't know how they have any time at all to study for an exam with consoles, gaa training, being let drinking at ever younger ages, honestly while some parents seem to be mostly off working all the time another set seem to be full time ferrying kids from billy to jack for their karate monday night and every other distraction under the sun the other 5 nights of the week. +even sensible parents have lost a lot of the authority they used have due to the culture nowadays.

Then there are the ones that cost their parents small fortunes in grinds while not bothering to listen in class or do their homework etc etc...but they are well able to pull the wool citing stress and playing the sympathy card.....

Tbh imo it's getting a bit ridiculous, no matter how low you put the bar in the hope they can jump over it an increasing number of students some of them with quite frankly bizarre expectations (without being willing to put in the effort to realise them) find a way to limbo under it....and this in a time where there are so many more resources out there than the one badly written book generations beforehand had to contend with......a lot of them have it too easy in general and this pandering that goes on is probably detrimental for them.

Take the New JC as an example, about half of the kids in my OHs school seemingly couldn't give a toss about the exam and won't bother putting in any effort to achieve anything beyond what turning up on the day and hoping for the best will bring whereas another cohort are stressed out by an exam which quite frankly has descended to the level of a "draw your trousers" in the space provided if you can't remember your name type effort....how would the vast majority of them not be stressed when this is how they go about preparing for an exam.....the sysyem /society etc facilitates their stress.

Anyway TLDR....they should be told get on with it unless you want a kick up the ass.. ..itll be good training for what real life will be like when the news cycle moves on after their LC and no one gives a ****e what they do and they'll actually have to do a tap if they want to achieve anything significant and very few care about any stress except their own....

mirrorwall14

I agree with everything in that post.

Except for the current fifth years and leaving certs. Whether we like it or not they have missed a lot of time in getting the courses finished and this is ongoing. Worse it’s not a level playing field at the moment as some schools have year groups at home and others are in school. Large amounts of class time is lost to sanitising and teachers moving room. They need the courses shortened tbh

The exams however should absolutely go ahead. And all of the above applies to the other year groups. I’ve just corrected my second year tests and they leave a lot to be desired. They just didn’t study

lulublue22

amacca wrote: »

I kind of agree they should do something to facilitate LC this year ...maybe even more choice but just on the stress thing in general that goes on in non-covid times

I recently looked back at historical exam papers at both LC and JC I had to do and then further back again....
The level now imo is very much less than what people were expected to do in the past ...at least in the subjects I'm familiar with.

I don't know how the utter **** there are so many stressed out students out when countless thousands of students seemed to make their way through much more difficult exams (although perhaps not in maths) for decades before this with much less strife.

I think and I suppose it's only a personal theory....they are stressed out because

1) theres are a huge cohort of them that never get a good kick in the arse when they should and told to get on with it and make an effort/do what you are told...doing what you are told is optional for an increasing number of them.

2) the system isn't really allowed make them do even some of the work they are supposed to be doing do to be able to undertake the exam and as a result increasing numbers of them can do SFA when it comes near exam time of course they are feeling stressed because they've been getting away with doing SFA all along and they know it.

3) there's a whole background noise of media sources telling them it's stressful and they should be stressed and a hype and build up to state exams in this country that isnt particularly helpful to the student at least....theres probably a little cottage industry of educational psychologists and exam advice givers/articles and "educationalists" making a living out of dubious research that stand to gain out of the hysteria as well

4) they are facilitated in being stressed by weak or almost absentee parenting instead of being brought up with a bit of cop on resilience and something of a work ethic.

5) a lot of them are hyperstimulated and have access to so many more distractions than even students 20/30 yrs ago.....i don't know how they have any time at all to study for an exam with consoles, gaa training, being let drinking at ever younger ages, honestly while some parents seem to be mostly off working all the time another set seem to be full time ferrying kids from billy to jack for their karate monday night and every other distraction under the sun the other 5 nights of the week. +even sensible parents have lost a lot of the authority they used have due to the culture nowadays.

Then there are the ones that cost their parents small fortunes in grinds while not bothering to listen in class or do their homework etc etc...but they are well able to pull the wool citing stress and playing the sympathy card.....

Tbh imo it's getting a bit ridiculous, no matter how low you put the bar in the hope they can jump over it an increasing number of students some of them with quite frankly bizarre expectations (without being willing to put in the effort to realise them) find a way to limbo under it....and this in a time where there are so many more resources out there than the one badly written book generations beforehand had to contend with......a lot of them have it too easy in general and this pandering that goes on is probably detrimental for them.

Take the New JC as an example, about half of the kids in my OHs school seemingly couldn't give a toss about the exam and won't bother putting in any effort to achieve anything beyond what turning up on the day and hoping for the best will bring whereas another cohort are stressed out by an exam which quite frankly has descended to the level of a "draw your trousers" in the space provided if you can't remember your name type effort....how would the vast majority of them not be stressed when this is how they go about preparing for an exam.....the sysyem /society etc facilitates their stress.

Anyway TLDR....they should be told get on with it unless you want a kick up the ass.. ..itll be good training for what real life will be like when the news cycle moves on after their LC and no one gives a ****e what they do and they'll actually have to do a tap if they want to achieve anything significant and very few care about any stress except their own....

From a primary perspective we (in our school context) are seeing a lot more highly anxious children. A lack of emotional resilience is a very obvious issue.

Smacruairi

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I agree with everything in that post.

Except for the current fifth years and leaving certs. Whether we like it or not they have missed a lot of time in getting the courses finished and this is ongoing. Worse it’s not a level playing field at the moment as some schools have year groups at home and others are in school. Large amounts of class time is lost to sanitising and teachers moving room. They need the courses shortened tbh

The exams however should absolutely go ahead. And all of the above applies to the other year groups. I’ve just corrected my second year tests and they leave a lot to be desired. They just didn’t study

I actually disagree with shortening the courses for next year, all extra curric and Co curric activities have been mostly cancelled. There is literally nothing else to do in school at the moment other than schooling. I've missed only 1 class with my 6th years and that's because they zoomed into higher options.

Just get on with it and stop looking for excuses. That student's union last year took so much energy and efforts from kids and diverted it into helping to cancel exams which led to much more stress in the end rather than just telling them to get on with it.

political analyst

RealJohn wrote: »

That was their excuse for cancelling the exams last time. Maybe parents will listen this time: the students will be under stress anyway. The stress will not be less if the exams are changed (even more). They’ll just be stressed the same amount about something else. Stress is part of life. They need to learn to deal with it, and parents should start helping them cope with it, rather than try to eliminate stress from their lives, because the latter isn’t possible.

Fair point. LC students must be reminded that, if they are still determined to get a place on a specific type of course after they didn't get the points for it, they won't mind taking another 2 or 3 years to get there.

solerina

Smacruairi wrote: »

I actually disagree with shortening the courses for next year, all extra curric and Co curric activities have been mostly cancelled. There is literally nothing else to do in school at the moment other than schooling. I've missed only 1 class with my 6th years and that's because they zoomed into higher options.

Just get on with it and stop looking for excuses. That student's union last year took so much energy and efforts from kids and diverted it into helping to cancel exams which led to much more stress in the end rather than just telling them to get on with it.

Agreed, I know I am flying through the material this year, I am certainly as far ahead with my 6th years as I was this time last year. I have not missed even 1 class this year, no trips, matches etc so we are actually getting a lot of work done !!

newuser99999

VANG1 wrote: »

As a parent all I know is that the students are under pressure to complete courses in the reduced time due to original lock down. The LC is bad enough without extra stress.

If you cannot cope with the stress of the leaving cert good luck in college. Lecturers won’t even know your name let alone care about you or your stress levels.

Treppen

I don't think reducing the syllabus is viable as it has it's whole ecology that has been justified from topic to topic.

Tweeking questions in the exam is the way to go.

The DofEd have done this for most subjects.

Removing the wrong topics topics or adding too much choice could have the effect of ensuring H1's skyrocket. I don't think they are concerned with H3s and H4s so much as the marking scheme weighting can push the large numbers around the adjacent banding.

French Toast

They've reduced the picture sequences in Gaeilge from 20 down to 10, the school's individual choice which 10 are included which is great.

One thing they have gotten right.

helpful

French Toast wrote: »

They've reduced the picture sequences in Gaeilge from 20 down to 10, the school's individual choice which 10 are included which is great.

One thing they have gotten right.

While this is probably great for students isn’t the point of the picture sequence that the student will talk about what is happening in the pictures rather than learning off 20? I’m not a secondary school teacher and I know that the majority will just learn these off but isn’t it much more important that they just know the vocab and are able to make sentences themselves. I think these picture stories could almost be done blind where the student picks and discusses a picture sequence unseen.
I also can’t help but think these would have been one of the easiest things to teach during lockdown/at home. Again though I’m not a secondary school teacher

Smacruairi

helpful wrote: »

While this is probably great for students isn’t the point of the picture sequence that the student will talk about what is happening in the pictures rather than learning off 20? I’m not a secondary school teacher and I know that the majority will just learn these off but isn’t it much more important that they just know the vocab and are able to make sentences themselves. I think these picture stories could almost be done blind where the student picks and discusses a picture sequence unseen.
I also can’t help but think these would have been one of the easiest things to teach during lockdown/at home. Again though I’m not a secondary school teacher

Try learn off those pictures sequences. I'll give you 3 weeks and bet you £100 you don't score a h1. If everyone could learn things off by heart that easy the leaving would be a doddle.

Also if you think people can learn off the sraith without knowing the vocab, and syntax, ie just learning a bunch of sounds, then I've a bridge to sell you.

helpful

Smacruairi wrote: »

Try learn off those pictures sequences. I'll give you 3 weeks and bet you £100 you don't score a h1. If everyone could learn things off by heart that easy the leaving would be a doddle.

Also if you think people can learn off the sraith without knowing the vocab, and syntax, ie just learning a bunch of sounds, then I've a bridge to sell you.

What I was suggesting was that the vocab is taught rather than learning off the picture stories. I know for the TEG exam there is an unseen picture story which is what I was suggesting should be implemented. Only learning 10 means that they will just be learned off by heart. I’m sure most schools will be doing 1-10 rather than the more difficult ones.
I also know many people who just learned off 20 picture stories for the Irish oral. That’s one of the benefits of having the orals early, that students can focus on just knowing those off by heart.
3 weeks to learn 20 picture stories? A fool and his money and all that I guess

Smacruairi

helpful wrote: »

What I was suggesting was that the vocab is taught rather than learning off the picture stories. I know for the TEG exam there is an unseen picture story which is what I was suggesting should be implemented. Only learning 10 means that they will just be learned off by heart. I’m sure most schools will be doing 1-10 rather than the more difficult ones.
I also know many people who just learned off 20 picture stories for the Irish oral. That’s one of the benefits of having the orals early, that students can focus on just knowing those off by heart.
3 weeks to learn 20 picture stories? A fool and his money and all that I guess

Yup, learning the sraith is a tool to teach vocab as they relate to community service to holidays to climate change to debating to being student of the year. It just adds an impetus as kids see it as "I have to know this for my exam".

But hey revolut is ready for the bet

helpful

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yup, learning the sraith is a tool to teach vocab as they relate to community service to holidays to climate change to debating to being student of the year. It just adds an impetus as kids see it as "I have to know this for my exam".

But hey revolut is ready for the bet [/quote

I understand the idea behind the picture stories and that’s why I’m disappointed to hear they have been reduced to 10. In my experience students just learn them off and I have known quite a few that spent the summer after 5th year learning all 20.
Most things students learn is just to know it for the exam though which is a pity.

spurious

We did an oral exam for Inter. Cert. French as part of a pilot scheme in 1978. There was an unseen picture we had to talk about. I can still remember there was a helicopter in it.

What was so special about us that we didn't need to see exam papers (or 'samples') in advance?

Just how easy do we have to make it?

RealJohn

helpful wrote: »

While this is probably great for students isn’t the point of the picture sequence that the student will talk about what is happening in the pictures rather than learning off 20? I’m not a secondary school teacher and I know that the majority will just learn these off but isn’t it much more important that they just know the vocab and are able to make sentences themselves. I think these picture stories could almost be done blind where the student picks and discusses a picture sequence unseen.
I also can’t help but think these would have been one of the easiest things to teach during lockdown/at home. Again though I’m not a secondary school teacher

All of this is spot on. My Irish is decent, so I don’t even remember what the oral involved when I did it, but there were picture sequences or role plays in German and learning them off is exactly how we were taught them.

Picture sequences for oral exams in all of the languages should be unseen, or failing that, have 100 of them, with ten randomly selected for every ten students or so.