Why do we need a signer at all GOV announcements?

fortwilliam

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...


https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

Effects

fortwilliam wrote: »

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?

They've always been there. Long before woke people like you came along.

Ubbquittious

We need a singer to cheer us up

.anon.

fortwilliam wrote: »

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...


https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

The obsession on here with that word continues.

Sign language is the first language of some Irish people.

ablelocks

Ubbquittious wrote: »

We need a singer to cheer us up

Smacruairi

I'd question why there is a signer but no Irish translator there

Collie D

I’d go a step further and get rid of the microphones too. Can hearing people not read subtitles?

Signore Fancy Pants

fortwilliam wrote: »

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...


https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

I don't think you actually know what the term 'woke' means.

Also, the state of you giving out about a service for the deaf.

.anon.

.anon. wrote: »

The obsession on here with that word continues.

Sign language is the first language of some Irish people.

So is Irish

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So is Irish

And we have entire news bulletins in Irish for them.

Gregor Samsa

It’s a legal requirement under the Irish Sign Language Act 2017 to provide public services in ISL. Plus the Act recognises ISL as the “native language” of its users.

From a purely technical point of view, it’s probably much cheaper, easier and more accurate to have a human standing there signing at a live event than to have a system where someone has to physically type or automatically generates subtitles in real time.

I know the OP just wants to dismiss any accommodation or concession to any marginal or minority group a “woke”, which is quite sad really.

L1011

The signer is in shot for any time the clip is used; arranging subtitle insertion to every potential platform would be an utter nightmare.

Sky King

You think that's bad? They have to have two up north, a Protestant one and a Catholic one.

Plumbthedepths

The Healy Rae's should have their own personal signer ,anyway to answer your questionI suspect the signer for all government announcements is to facilitate sections of society who need the service.

Sardonicat

Reading at speed is not an easy skill for people born with have profound hearing loss to acquire. Why does it bother you that deaf people are delivered the same information as you at the same time?

L1011

Sky King wrote: »

You think that's bad? They have to have two up north, a Protestant one and a Catholic one.

The ISL/BSL comprehension split is not that clear either.

They're different languages entirely, signing is not translating English to signals and it turned out that ISL and BSL were developed seperately.

alchemist33

Some people here have obviously never watched live subtitles.

Plumbthedepths

alchemist33 wrote: »

Some people here have obviously never watched live subtitles.

Funniest thing I ever was the lad signing the Inbetweeners, signing Jay motorboating a MILF was comedy gold.

Effects

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'd question why there is a signer but no Irish translator there

I think you mean interpreter, not translator.

.anon.

Sky King wrote: »

You think that's bad? They have to have two up north, a Protestant one and a Catholic one.

Use the wrong one in the wrong company and instead of getting kneecapped, you get your fingers broken.

McGinniesta

deafness is a thing

Leg End Reject

Collie D wrote: »

I’d go a step further and get rid of the microphones too. Can hearing people not read subtitles?

Sure the lights could be turned off too so everyone just sees the subtitles. Would it be woke to consider the visually impaired or illiterate? Surely we can't have that!

Of all the things to get worked up over this year, it's rather sad that someone hones in on public announcements around the pandemic being accessible to as many people as possible.

The desperation to decry "Woke" is worse than the bastardisation of the word itself. It would be easier if we could get everyone to follow the bloody advice and let us get on with our lives as best as possible before we all crack up.

Kylta

fortwilliam wrote: »

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...


https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

Is woke not a sad joke

pickarooney

L1011 wrote: »

The ISL/BSL comprehension split is not that clear either.

They're different languages entirely, signing is not translating English to signals and it turned out that ISL and BSL were developed seperately.

Is there such a thing as accents in sign language? Like in different parts of the country do they have slightly different hand movements or speed?

Hodors Appletart

pickarooney wrote: »

Is there such a thing as accents in sign language? Like in different parts of the country do they have slightly different hand movements or speed?

yeah, some deaf people can develop quirks or hand movements between different social groupings - just like hearing people, there is slang too and neologisms

Sign Languages are full and complete languages and have the same make-up and things as any spoken language.

My cousin is one of the Govt signers, we're all very proud of his new-found fame this year.

Graces7

pickarooney wrote: »

Is there such a thing as accents in sign language? Like in different parts of the country do they have slightly different hand movements or speed?

There will be dialects yes But they record and transmit what is being said so that rules that out anyways ...

Kylta

pickarooney wrote: »

Is there such a thing as accents in sign language? Like in different parts of the country do they have slightly different hand movements or speed?

No, I'm sure ISL is national langauge, their is no accent. Only hand and face signals. I done an ISL course last year as part of my job, and I must admit it was probably one of the best courses I did in years. Where I have just basic ISL learning I love watching them signing on the news, knowing I can catch some of what there saying because the are fluent with their signing.
In regards to the OP I curious as to why this should even be a post? What were you hoping for?

OldRio

He was hoping for attention. Which he obtained. It's all rather sad really.

Hodors Appletart

Kylta wrote: »

No, I'm sure ISL is national langauge, their is no accent. Only hand and face signals.

there are definitely accents in all SLs

However, there will also be a standard that any public signers will use so everyone can understand.

Same as you never really hear a hearing newsreader start off the news with "stoooryyy buds, heyor's de newis tenigh'" or someone that speaks like a Healy-Rae presenting the weather.

People do have those accents, but they are never used by people delivering announcements in an official capacity, because people who do use those accents can also understand a more neutral standard.

(note, I attach no judgement to the accents, nor do I used the word "standard" in anything other than a technical sense)

Oink

Kylta wrote: »

No, I'm sure ISL is national langauge, their is no accent. Only hand and face signals.

https://www.handspeak.com/study/index.php?id=3


“ Does a signer have an accent in their sign language? Yes, definitely. How they "pronounce" or utter can convey some characteristics of their signing. Some native deaf signers, especially those from native-signing Deaf families, can finely detect whether a signer is a native signer, an interpreter, or a post-lingual learner. Furthermore, some can sharply detect whether a signer is hearing or deaf, even if they are fluent. Hearing signers have a certain accent. It is rare that signing of a fluent hearing signer looks like that of a native Deaf signer. “

Kylta

Oink wrote: »

https://www.handspeak.com/study/index.php?id=3


“ Does a signer have an accent in their sign language? Yes, definitely. How they "pronounce" or utter can convey some characteristics of their signing. Some native deaf signers, especially those from native-signing Deaf families, can finely detect whether a signer is a native signer, an interpreter, or a post-lingual learner. Furthermore, some can sharply detect whether a signer is hearing or deaf, even if they are fluent. Hearing signers have a certain accent. It is rare that signing of a fluent hearing signer looks like that of a native Deaf signer. “

Thank you for that bit of knowledge, but the instructor never elaborated on accents within in the deaf culture. Maybe the course was to short (actually it was just basic stuff,)

Gregor Samsa

Also, seemingly because males and females were traditionally taught ISL in separate schools, there’s a difference in the language between the sexes, which is unique among sign languages.

Zebra3

Btw, while discussing deafness related issues, if you're wearing a mask, deaf people can't lipread you!!!!!

Incredible that some people haven't copped that.

killbillvol2

fortwilliam wrote: »

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...


https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

It's for TikTok.

AutoTuning

Interestingly, ISL is based on old LSF (Langue des signes Française) which forms the basis of many European sign languages and also, importantly for access to large numbers of English-linked sign language, LSF is also the root of American Sign Language.

It originally grew up as a language spoken by a deaf community in Paris and was then formalised in deaf schools in the 1700s and spread from there.

BSL isn’t connected and grew up in deaf schools in Britain.

That’s why you’ve a need for two signers in NI. The two languages are quite different even though there’s crossover and people who may be able to converse in both.

The history of banning children from using sign language in schools also lead to a lot of isolation. There was an oralist vs manualist argument in the 19th and 20th century that sought to force deaf people to lip read by banning the use of sign language. So children were often punished for conversing in sign language, which was a terrible thing to do, when you consider that someone can communicate much more fluidly and fluently in sign than by reading lips and for many it’s their first and native language.

The rather flawed logic was that sign language was isolating deaf people and it was the good old fashioned attempt to force them to normalise to suit everyone else (a thread that runs through a lot of institutions of that era), rather than accept it was a language, with its own grammar, syntax and history and linguistic culture.

It’s long been shown anywhere you get a community of deaf people a sign language will form. So it’s an innately human ability to create symbolic language in whatever mediums are available, and when audio isn’t, we can do it visually.

I don’t know why some people have such a bee in their bonnet about using ISL to live translate spoken conferences about very important statements. It’s just opening access to a community who won’t be able to access it easily otherwise.

It’s worse than it being unavailable in Irish as basically spoken language is unintelligible to some and I think people are confusing what a sign language is. It isn’t just a direct translation of spoken English. That would be way too cumbersome. It does use some finger spelling for words brought in, but it’s doing its own thing as a language of symbolic gestures that encapsulate meaning.

Written European or any language with a phonetic script (in contrast to say Chinese symbolic writing which isn’t directly linked to spoken Chinese) is just a way of encoding the phonetics of speech into a code of letters. If you don’t fully understand the phonetics of speech, because you’ve never heard them, you can see why reading rapidly scrolling subtitles is not always ideal.

anplaya27

fortwilliam wrote: »

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...


https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

Irish Sign language is recognised as a native language of ireland alongside Irish since 2017. It was once banned from use by the church and state.

English is not the language of the Deaf, it is a spoken language which we have never heard.

We have a right to information in our native language hence the interpreters.

Anesthetize

Did somebody actually create a thread on this?

anplaya27

pickarooney wrote: »

Is there such a thing as accents in sign language? Like in different parts of the country do they have slightly different hand movements or speed?

Yes, with regional variations too. And all native sign languages are different. Am a Deaf ISL user.

anplaya27

Kylta wrote: »

No, I'm sure ISL is national langauge, their is no accent. Only hand and face signals. I done an ISL course last year as part of my job, and I must admit it was probably one of the best courses I did in years. Where I have just basic ISL learning I love watching them signing on the news, knowing I can catch some of what there saying because the are fluent with their signing.
In regards to the OP I curious as to why this should even be a post? What were you hoping for?

You're wrong. Regional dialects and variations exist. Also there is masculine and feminine versions of ISL due to segregation in the past too.

I wish people on this thread would stop posting misinformation about our culture and language. Someon clearly started this thread with bad intentions. Can a moderater please close this thread.

anplaya27

Kylta wrote: »

Thank you for that bit of knowledge, but the instructor never elaborated on accents within in the deaf culture. Maybe the course was to short (actually it was just basic stuff,)

Takes years to learn as it's a full language. I'm a Deaf ISL user and I am continually learning as its an evolving language. You wouldnt be be able to understand or have a conversation with the Deaf from attending a basic course. It teaches you to say hello etc , and its exactly that, just basic.

AutoTuning

It’s a bit of a pointless premise for a thread, but it shows the amount of ignorance out there about sign language in general. I just find it fascinating to be aware of a whole other branch of human language, with its own syntax, grammar, structure, history and culture behind it.

All you have to do is watch one of those Late Late Toy Show simultaneously signers in full flow and you really get a sense that it’s a very rich, fluid and sophisticated language.

It’s also remarkable that the kind of mentality that went on about eradicating the use of Irish (or many other smaller languages) to convenience a majority either by directly attempting to stop its use or dismissing it also went on for sign languages and far later. It’s only very recently that people have woken up to that.

The remarkable part is you’d think that Ireland, of all places, would be more aware of the problems and hurt that kind of approach causes. It took us far, far too long to recognise and embrace ISL as one of our official languages.

It’s a part of Irish linguistic culture and needs to be recognised as such. It’s our visual language.

NickNickleby

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

yeah, some deaf people can develop quirks or hand movements between different social groupings - just like hearing people, there is slang too and neologisms

Sign Languages are full and complete languages and have the same make-up and things as any spoken language.

My cousin is one of the Govt signers, we're all very proud of his new-found fame this year.

Sometimes when watching signers, I wonder how easy it is to learn, how nuanced is it, are there lots of shortcuts used? Fair play to your cousin, though.

Can I ask, does anyone know if the signers are themselves deaf? I ask this because when we see them, they're usually either alongside or behind the speakers. So either they're reading a teleprompter*, or they're actually listening to the speakers.
(*can't imagine that though, in a live Q & A session...)

As to the OP, I would say this is a very good initiative. When the press conferences started, we were all glued to the sets, awaiting Armageddon. It was vital to get the info out to everyone, and that's exactly what they did - highly commendable.

The OP might be thinking that some woke eejit said: "oooooh, I knowwww, lets put signers up there, everyone will think we're wonderful". I suppose its possible, but imagine being at THAT meeting, wouldn't you tell them to get a grip, we're not doing this for kudos. Its an unlikely scenario, in my opinion.

So, I think the communications we've been getting during a dreadful time, has been excellent. This pandemic is constantly shifting the goalposts and those charged with protecting us (yes, including current and previous Ministers) have done a great job. I don't envy them.

anplaya27

NickNickleby wrote: »

Sometimes when watching signers, I wonder how easy it is to learn, how nuanced is it, are there lots of shortcuts used? Fair play to your cousin, though.

Can I ask, does anyone know if the signers are themselves deaf? I ask this because when we see them, they're usually either alongside or behind the speakers. So either they're reading a teleprompter*, or they're actually listening to the speakers.
(*can't imagine that though, in a live Q & A session...)

As to the OP, I would say this is a very good initiative. When the press conferences started, we were all glued to the sets, awaiting Armageddon. It was vital to get the info out to everyone, and that's exactly what they did - highly commendable.

The OP might be thinking that some woke eejit said: "oooooh, I knowwww, lets put signers up there, everyone will think we're wonderful". I suppose its possible, but imagine being at THAT meeting, wouldn't you tell them to get a grip, we're not doing this for kudos. Its an unlikely scenario, in my opinion.

So, I think the communications we've been getting during a dreadful time, has been excellent. This pandemic is constantly shifting the goalposts and those charged with protecting us (yes, including current and previous Ministers) have done a great job. I don't envy them.

ISL and spoken english are completely different languages and have nothing in common. One language is visual, other isoral, which the Deaf have never heard, yet are expected to understand. Imagine how difficult that is.
You interpret ISL to english and english to ISL. Sometimes thereis no direct translation and you need to finger spell the word and come up with a sign to describe it.

Signers you see there are hearing, obviously interpreting in real time sure. You need to be able to hear for that. We have Deaf interpreters too. Interpreters study in the school of linguistics in Trinity at the centre for Deaf studies. I'm a member of the Deaf community and an ISL user.

SouthWesterly

bubblypop wrote: »

And we have entire news bulletins in Irish for them.

We used to have news for the deaf on Rte1 as well.
I remember my grandfather watching it in the 70's.
It was sign, subtitled and lip read by those watching it.

If anything we have regressed

Sardonicat

SouthWesterly wrote: »

We used to have news for the deaf on Rte1 as well.
I remember my grandfather watching it in the 70's.
It was sign, subtitled and lip read by those watching it.

If anything we have regressed

That's right, it was spoken slowly, with a slowly scrolling text and an interpreter on screen, making the news very accessible for deaf and hard of hearing people. My Dad would appreciate the slow articulation and slow text now. He is very hard of hearing and relies heavily on lip reading these days. While subtitles can be helpful watching tv, anyone who's tried using them on live broadcasts will know they are a disaster with time lags, missing words or entire tracts of dialogue and some bizarre typos!

anplaya27

SouthWesterly wrote: »

We used to have news for the deaf on Rte1 as well.
I remember my grandfather watching it in the 70's.
It was sign, subtitled and lip read by those watching it.

If anything we have regressed

We still do ? It's on rte.

How have we regressed?

Its now recognised as a native language. It used to be banned from use not that long ago. Actually today is the day the ISL Act 2017 is fully enacted in law.

Sardonicat

anplaya27 wrote: »

We still do ? It's on rte.

How have we regressed?

Its now recognised as a native language. It used to be banned from use not that long ago. Actually today is the day the ISL Act 2017 is fully enacted in law.

What time is that news broadcast, and which channel, anplaya? TIA

anplaya27

Sardonicat wrote: »

What time is that news broadcast, and which channel, anplaya? TIA

Not sure. It's usually either before or after rte news on rte 1. Several Deaf people I know are the signers on it.

HeidiHeidi

Sardonicat wrote: »

What time is that news broadcast, and which channel, anplaya? TIA

It's on between the Nuacht and the 6o'c bulletin on RTE1, although I think the rolling text is gone, it's just signed now. Which is a shame, I thought the newsreader, signer and text covered the most bases.

Sardonicat

anplaya27 wrote: »

Not sure. It's usually either before or after rte news on rte 1.

It must be before it because my Dad is always watching another channel immediately before and switches over st one o'clock and six o'clock. If it's on my tv listings I'll set it to record. I'm not sure it is though. Thanks

anplaya27

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

It's on between the Nuacht and the 6o'c bulletin on RTE1, although I think the rolling text is gone, it's just signed now. Which is a shame, I thought the newsreader, signer and text covered the most bases.

Rolling text still there