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Is Ulster Scots a language?

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135

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    #62
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    its a dialect i'd say, and theres many words spoken in the north by all kinds of people. my dad used to say things like 'fornenst' and none of us could ever work out wtf he meant (and we were living in the north)


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    #63
    Beanntraigheach
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Beanntraigheach


    maccored wrote: »
    its a dialect i'd say, and theres many words spoken in the north by all kinds of people. my dad used to say things like 'fornenst' and none of us could ever work out wtf he meant (and we were living in the north)
    I've seen 'forenenst' mentioned before as a prime example of an Ulster Scots word but it's (been) used in many places, very common in the south-east not so long ago for example.


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    #64
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Some older Ulster Scots. If you get stuck try reading it out loud phonetically.

    Extract taken from The Humour of Druid's Island by Archibald McIlroy
    Dublin: Hodges, Figgis & Co. Ltd.; Belfast: W Mullan & Son, 1902


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    #65
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,394 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I thought Scottish for toilet was cludgy.

    Dundee.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #66
    jmlad2020
    Registered Users Posts: 691 ✭✭✭jmlad2020


    Bog


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    You may already be speaking Ulster Scots without even realising it.

    Remember Ulster Scots is written phonetically so speak those words out loud in an Ulster Scots accent before you rule out the possibility that you have already been assimilated.

    That's an interesting link.
    I'm from Donegal, and I used to visit Northern Ireland regularly, so you could safely say I'm fairly familiar with Ulster-Scots, yet I would only use about 3 Ulster Scots words.
    It seems I'm not "assimilated".

    For what it's worth, my own opinion is that Uster Scots is a dialect of Scots, but I don't believe it's sufficiently distinct to be called a separate language.

    On the other hand, if you were to compare Gaeilge and Gaelic, then I think you could probably make a case that the languages have diverged sufficiently to be classified as different languages.

    So it's interesting that Unionists are more interested in having Ulster Scots classified as a language than Gaelic - which at this point truly is a different language - although it's a language that Irish speakers wouldn't have any great difficulty in learning, to be honest.


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    #68
    Midlandsmesser
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭Midlandsmesser


    It’s their culture/ history/heritage, let them decide if it’s a dialect vs a language. It doesn’t effect anyone else. Seriously, what difference does it make? Zilch!

    I’ve been involved in cross border projects before, eye opening experiences on both sides of the border, very interesting! Of all the sh#ty community projects that I’ve had to grin my teeth through, I’ll actually never forget the Ulster Scots. Unreal experience, they were passionate yet respectful of difference, and they’re exceptional drummers, (who would have thought!). it was amazing to put aside differences and actually just listen!

    So the point is it’s their heritage, let them decide.


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    #69
    KevRossi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    If you ever read the original version of Irving Welsh's 'Trainspotting', it's written in various forms of Scottish dialect.

    Ulster Scots is the same; it's a dialect. Like Munster Irish or Donegal Irish, Bavarian German or Berliner German. Much as I believe it should be preserved, it's nonsense to regard it as a separate language.


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    #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's very tempting to add fluency in Ulster-Scots to my Linked In.


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    #71
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's very tempting to add fluency in Ulster-Scots to my Linked In.
    Don't forget you also shared a Nobel Peace prize and have won as many Tour de France's as Lance Armstrong and were Time Magazine's person of the year.


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    #72
    Midlandsmesser
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭Midlandsmesser


    KevRossi wrote: »
    Ulster Scots is the same; it's a dialect. Like Munster Irish or Donegal Irish, Bavarian German or Berliner German. Much as I believe it should be preserved, it's nonsense to regard it as a separate language.

    Respectfully....playing devils advocate....
    What’s your experience or education to make that judgement?


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    #73
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    maccored wrote: »
    its a dialect i'd say, and theres many words spoken in the north by all kinds of people. my dad used to say things like 'fornenst' and none of us could ever work out wtf he meant (and we were living in the north)

    Forninst is a Hiberno-English word of Norse origin. In the book Malachy Horan Remembers, the author writes of hearing the word in the Dublin Mountains. He says it's the only word of Norse origin which is exclusive to Hiberno-English. The late Diarmuid Ó Muirithe wouldn't at all agree. I have heard that word only once, from an old man in Co. Laois. I'm surprised to learn of it being used in Ulster.


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    #74
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,412 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    "Menfowk's lavatries'.

    Make it compulsory in every school.


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    #75
    Midlandsmesser
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭Midlandsmesser


    feargale wrote: »
    Forninst is a Hiberno-English word of Norse origin. In the book Malachy Horan Remembers, the author writes of hearing the word in the Dublin Mountains. He says it's the only word of Norse origin which is exclusive to Hiberno-English. The late Diarmuid Ó Muirithe wouldn't at all agree. I have heard that word only once, from an old man in Co. Laois. I'm surprised to learn of it being used in Ulster.

    That’s interesting!


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    #76
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    For anyone who can access bbc iplayer,this three part documentry is quite interesting.
    "BBC iPlayer - Languages of Ulster" https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b09g3gnf/languages-of-ulster


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    #77
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,767 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    KevRossi wrote: »
    If you ever read the original version of Irving Welsh's 'Trainspotting', it's written in various forms of Scottish dialect.

    Ulster Scots is the same; it's a dialect. Like Munster Irish or Donegal Irish, Bavarian German or Berliner German. Much as I believe it should be preserved, it's nonsense to regard it as a separate language.

    I've read loads of his books, and the language in that link was familiar, but 99% of it is just a Scottish accent written phonetically.


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    #78
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Beanntraigheach wrote: »
    I've seen 'forenenst' mentioned before as a prime example of an Ulster Scots word but it's (been) used in many places, very common in the south-east not so long ago for example.

    he grew up in the North West - long way from the south east
    from Wiktionary, Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License.


    'forenenst' - preposition dialect, Ulster - Over against; opposite to.

    more than likely made its way south from the north


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    #79
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    feargale wrote: »
    Forninst is a Hiberno-English word of Norse origin. In the book Malachy Horan Remembers, the author writes of hearing the word in the Dublin Mountains. He says it's the only word of Norse origin which is exclusive to Hiberno-English. The late Diarmuid Ó Muirithe wouldn't at all agree. I have heard that word only once, from an old man in Co. Laois. I'm surprised to learn of it being used in Ulster.

    Def used in whatever ulster scots is. Variant of 'fornent'

    http://www.ulsterscotsacademy.com/scotch-irish/futa/fornent.php


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    #80
    silliussoddius
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    feargale wrote: »
    Forninst is a Hiberno-English word of Norse origin. In the book Malachy Horan Remembers, the author writes of hearing the word in the Dublin Mountains. He says it's the only word of Norse origin which is exclusive to Hiberno-English. The late Diarmuid Ó Muirithe wouldn't at all agree. I have heard that word only once, from an old man in Co. Laois. I'm surprised to learn of it being used in Ulster.

    I heard it a good bit in Donegal. One thing to consider is the emigration and back migrations from Donegal to Scotland. Boat from Derry was probably as easy as getting to other parts of Ireland.
    The word wee is associated with Scotland and d’north, but it has it’s origins in old English, from the same root word that weight comes from. Linguistic borrowing can be funny, isn’t craic based on an old English word?


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    #81
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,066 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No.


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    #82
    Duke of Schomberg
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭Duke of Schomberg


    Of course "Ulster Scots" isn't a language, anymore than "Yorkshire" is, and that's from a Yorkshireman who's tradition should be evident from his user-name. It's a made-up counter to the SF-IRA-gaeilge brigade, but you can't blame my Ulster brethren for wanting to stymie that lot or grab a share of the money that's up for grabs. The trouble is that when we get regional governance in England this sort of nonsense will encourage the die-hard regionalists here to demand similar status for all sorts of dialects. And who the bloody hell in their right minds wants to speak these half-dead languages/dialects anyway? with whom can you converse?? - a load of brain-dead, narrow-minded, bigots living in some eighteenth century Brigadoon fantasy-world, or in the case of gaeilge . . . Eamon O'Cuiv.


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    #83
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,767 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Duke of Schomberg wrote: »
    Of course "Ulster Scots" isn't a language, anymore than "Yorkshire" is, and that's from a Yorkshireman who's tradition should be evident from his user-name. It's a made-up counter to the SF-IRA-gaeilge brigade, but you can't blame my Ulster brethren for wanting to stymie that lot or grab a share of the money that's up for grabs. The trouble is that when we get regional governance in England this sort of nonsense will encourage the die-hard regionalists here to demand similar status for all sorts of dialects. And who the bloody hell in their right minds wants to speak these half-dead languages/dialects anyway? with whom can you converse?? - a load of brain-dead, narrow-minded, bigots living in some eighteenth century Brigadoon fantasy-world, or in the case of gaeilge . . . Eamon O'Cuiv.

    I think DUP-UVF got more than their share from Cash for Ash without having to stick their noses in the trough again citing "Are Kulture".


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    #84
    Duke of Schomberg
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭Duke of Schomberg


    McGaggs wrote: »
    I think DUP-UVF got more than their share from Cash for Ash without having to stick their noses in the trough again citing "Are Kulture".

    Counter-terrorism is not the same thing as terrorism, so don't even comapare "DUP-UVF" - whetever that is - with the known entity of "SF-IRA". And "cash-for-ash" is a different issue - that just shows what happens when you give too much power to too-small/regionised governments . . . look to your own neck for all the dubious dealings that have gone on in the south of Ireland over the years.


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    #85
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,767 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Duke of Schomberg wrote: »
    Counter-terrorism is not the same thing as terrorism, so don't even comapare "DUP-UVF" - whetever that is - with the known entity of "SF-IRA". And "cash-for-ash" is a different issue - that just shows what happens when you give too much power to too-small/regionised governments . . . look to your own neck for all the dubious dealings that have gone on in the south of Ireland over the years.

    Don't get upset with me because Arlene Foster met with loyalist terrorists to get their opinion on Brexit.


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    #86
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,784 ✭✭✭✭briany


    When you see Ulster Scots written down, it often just looks like a textual capturing of Scottish idiosyncrasies when pronouncing English. Are there words and phrases in there which I don't understand? Sure, but this also true of many forms of speaking which are just considered to be dialects of English.

    But I think it true to say that, looking at it academically, Scots is a language because of how it developed, side by side from a common root with standard English, but also by having its own body of literature and codified spellings for words. If the Irish had pulled off the same trick with the literature and the spellings, we'd probably be discussing a language called 'Hibernian' or something as well. So culture and politics is what made Scots a language rather than being a manner of speaking alien to standard English.


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    #87
    pauliebdub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,064 ✭✭✭pauliebdub


    Scots is a patois, it can be read in Irvine Welsh novels by some of the working class characters from Glasgow and Edinburgh. Up North the English spoken is pretty similar to standard English so there is really no such thing as Ulster Scots. It's made into a political thing by some unionists to prevent any legal standing for the Irish language or if there is any then it's parity for something that they feel they own. It's complete nonsense.


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    #88
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Mimon


    maccored wrote: »
    he grew up in the North West - long way from the south east



    more than likely made its way south from the north

    Look up Yola. Old type of English that was spoken in Wexford since the 12th century.


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    #89
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    jmlad2020 wrote: »
    Joke language. Up the Gaeilge

    Equality of esteem for us but not for them.

    How many times have you posted in an Irish language thread?


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    #90
    jmlad2020
    Registered Users Posts: 691 ✭✭✭jmlad2020


    feargale wrote: »
    Equality of esteem for us but not for them.

    How many times have you posted in an Irish language thread?

    What does it matter Feargale? Boards is a largely English speaking platform.

    The same way if you visit Manchester the language of choice is English.


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    #91
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    jmlad2020 wrote: »
    What does it matter Feargale? Boards is a largely English speaking platform.

    Boards has an Irish language forum. Given your expressed enthusiasm for the language I would have thought you would be a frequent poster there. No?


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