Is Ulster Scots a language?

Gamer Bhoy 89

I'm Scottish and I've never seen the language written on signage like that. More than likely just written there as a bit of culture-fun.

Bit cynical

I've heard words like "bairns" used in present day Scotland, but are there any communities in the North that use it today?

RobMc59

Bit cynical wrote: »

I've heard words like "bairns" used in present day Scotland, but are there any communities in the North that use it today?

Possibly around the North East/Newcastle on Tyne area.

Gamer Bhoy 89

Bit cynical wrote: »

I've heard words like "bairns" used in present day Scotland, but are there any communities in the North that use it today?

People around the central belt mostly use the word "wean".

I usually heard bairn used up in Angus.

Bit cynical

RobMc59 wrote: »

Possibly around the North East/Newcastle on Tyne area.

Sorry should have said North of Ireland. I imagine such a word very archaic in NI unlike parts of Scotland where it is still in use.

Duke of Schomberg

Duke of Schomberg wrote: »

by And who the bloody hell in their right minds wants to speak these half-dead languages/dialects anyway? with whom can you converse?? - a load of brain-dead, narrow-minded, bigots living in some eighteenth century Brigadoon fantasy-world, or in the case of gaeilge . . . Eamon O'Cuiv.

I take it you've never heard of Gaeltacht areas?

I can assure you, I speak as Gaeilge to my family and neighbours on a daily basis - and we are neither brain dead, nor called Éamon.

The irony in the whole situation is that Scots Gaelic, and Irish Gaeilge both predate either Scots, or Ulster Scots.

Apparently, Unionists only want to celebrate and preserve one part of their culture in Northern Ireland.
Precisely why they would want to completely eradicate the remaining rich cultural inheritance is an interesting question - yet not one I've ever had the opportunity to discuss.

Any takers?

The J Stands for Jay

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Precisely why they would want to completely eradicate the remaining rich cultural inheritance is an interesting question - yet not one I've ever had the opportunity to discuss.

Any takers?

Isn't that part of the reason their ancestors were brought to Ireland?

McGaggs

McGaggs wrote: »

Isn't that part of the reason their ancestors were brought to Ireland?

Why would you say that?

Insect Overlord

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why would you say that?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

The J Stands for Jay

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why would you say that?

Jonathan Bardon (2011). The Plantation of Ulster. Gill & Macmillan. p. 214. ISBN 978-0-7171-4738-0. To King James the Plantation of Ulster would be a civilising enterprise which would 'establish the true religion of Christ among men...almost lost in superstition'. In short, he intended his grandiose scheme would bring the enlightenment of the Reformation to one of the most remote and benighted provinces in his kingdom.

Insect Overlord

Insect Overlord wrote: »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

Did you read that link?
Many of the Scots settlers spoke Irish, which is what we are discussing. So, again, I will ask, why do Ulster Scots want to eradicate their own history and culture?

McGaggs wrote: »

Jonathan Bardon (2011). The Plantation of Ulster. Gill & Macmillan. p. 214. ISBN 978-0-7171-4738-0. To King James the Plantation of Ulster would be a civilising enterprise which would 'establish the true religion of Christ among men...almost lost in superstition'. In short, he intended his grandiose scheme would bring the enlightenment of the Reformation to one of the most remote and benighted provinces in his kingdom.

That's religion - not language.
The truth about the language is that it was spoken by the descendants of settlers until two or three generations ago.

The truth about Gaeilge and Gaelic is that they were originally one language, spoken in Ireland and Scotland, certainly from the 6th century - and probably, in parts at least, long before that, given the history of trade between the two Islands.

So, again, why would any group of people be so vehemently against something that is as much a part of their own ancient heritage as it is Irish heritage?

The J Stands for Jay

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, again, why would any group of people be so vehemently against something that is as much a part of their own ancient heritage as it is Irish heritage?

The intention of the plantation was to displace the indigenous people and their culture. The current unionists are against a part of their culture, as they no longer acknowledge it as their culture. They have tied themselves to a notion of Britishness, which leans towards englishness, rather than to the culture of the land their ancestors left, or where they now live. If they've chosen to only follow the part of their past that was all about dismantling the Irish religion, language and culture, I can't imagine they'd listen to the likes of us telling them that they're ignoring a part of their culture.

I'm reminded of an anecdote I was told about a group from some Scottish island who were in Belfast for a weekend, and wanted to watch the old firm match. They ended up in somewhere like the Sandy Row Rangers supporters club, and caused great confusion amongst the regulars by wearing Rangers jerseys, but speaking to each other in "Irish".

McGaggs

McGaggs wrote: »

The current unionists are against a part of their culture, as they no longer acknowledge it as their culture. They have tied themselves to a notion of Britishness, which leans towards englishness, rather than to the culture of the land their ancestors left, or where they now live.

Exactly. Unionists who reject the Irish language ( and Irish people, for that matter), are effectively denying thousands of years of their own culture, and greater links with Irish people, as opposed to English people, over the same time period, to cling to 400 years of English domination - of both Countries.

So, I'm curious to hear the Unionists viewpoint on why that is.

Is it a case of history being written by the victors? Is it a case of wilful blindness? Is there selective history being taught? Or, is it all just propaganda?

I'm not asking any Unionists to embrace Irish - I'm asking why they reject a part of their own culture, just as much as it is my culture, so vehemently?

Nqp15hhu

No, but it is definitely a unique dialect specific to the north coast.

Nqp15hhu

pauliebdub wrote: »

Scots is a patois, it can be read in Irvine Welsh novels by some of the working class characters from Glasgow and Edinburgh. Up North the English spoken is pretty similar to standard English so there is really no such thing as Ulster Scots. It's made into a political thing by some unionists to prevent any legal standing for the Irish language or if there is any then it's parity for something that they feel they own. It's complete nonsense.

I would disagree with this. Whilst I don’t refer to Ulster Scots as a language, there is definitely a uniqueness to it. I live in and near areas where this dialect is spoken.

I don’t speak it myself, but there is certainly a Scottish undertone and influence to it. And it is much more akin to a Scottish dialect than a southern Hiberno English dialect. Listening to people with Glasgow and Ayrshire myself it’s amazing how similar their vocabulary and spoken English is to ours.

Nqp15hhu

McGaggs wrote: »

Don't get upset with me because Arlene Foster met with loyalist terrorists to get their opinion on Brexit.

You are aware that Leo V and his cabinet members obsessively talked up the threat of violence to produce the current protocol right?

Nqp15hhu

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I take it you've never heard of Gaeltacht areas?

I can assure you, I speak as Gaeilge to my family and neighbours on a daily basis - and we are neither brain dead, nor called Éamon.

The irony in the whole situation is that Scots Gaelic, and Irish Gaeilge both predate either Scots, or Ulster Scots.

Apparently, Unionists only want to celebrate and preserve one part of their culture in Northern Ireland.
Precisely why they would want to completely eradicate the remaining rich cultural inheritance is an interesting question - yet not one I've ever had the opportunity to discuss.

Any takers?

Have you set foot in the Northern and Eastern parts of NI? Have you studied the culture here in general (not just orangeism)? It is a different culture and society to Fermanagh and Newry as an example, which a lot of southerners seem to get as their view of NI. (Both of which feel like an extension of ROI to me and not the general NI culture.)

Historically, there was a very limited connection to the southern half of the island from here - not including Donegal. It was a mismatch of Ulster Irish and Scottish culture here, we use both native Irish and Scottish words in our spoken English. There is much more of a historical and cultural connection with Scotland too. This isn’t even for political reasons but for geographical reasons, places such as Cork are around 300 miles away, whilst Glasgow is only 100 miles away. In times of horse and kart it would’ve been easier to use a boat.

I personally don’t claim to be Scottish at all, I am Northern Irish. However, that influence can’t be denied or ignored. It’s part of our everyday life and its not something you see in the southern half of the island. This comes from food right through to our personality and morals.

For ex, there are a lot of foods we have in NI that are Scottish influenced. Examples could include: Cream Cookies, Pineapple Tarts or tablet sweets.

Nqp15hhu

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Did you read that link?
Many of the Scots settlers spoke Irish, which is what we are discussing. So, again, I will ask, why do Ulster Scots want to eradicate their own history and culture?



That's religion - not language.
The truth about the language is that it was spoken by the descendants of settlers until two or three generations ago.

The truth about Gaeilge and Gaelic is that they were originally one language, spoken in Ireland and Scotland, certainly from the 6th century - and probably, in parts at least, long before that, given the history of trade between the two Islands.

So, again, why would any group of people be so vehemently against something that is as much a part of their own ancient heritage as it is Irish heritage?

You continue to say this. Where is your evidence? Widespread use of the Irish language died out here before 1800 and was/is not part of the culture.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?searchMoreVisible=true&census_year=1911&surname=&firstname=&county19011911=Londonderry&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&parish=&ward=&barony=&townland=&houseNumber=&ded=&age=&sex=&search=Search&ageInMonths=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&yearsMarried=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=Irish&deafdumb=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumber=&protNumber=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?searchMoreVisible=true&census_year=1911&surname=&firstname=&county19011911=Londonderry&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&parish=&ward=&barony=&townland=&houseNumber=&ded=&age=&sex=&ageInMonths=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&yearsMarried=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=Irish+and+English&deafdumb=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumber=&protNumber=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&search=Search

beachhead

Talk about drifting minds.Didn't this topic start as a language question of Ulster gaelic/Scots gaelic.Dialects dialects only.Now it's engineered as an an attack on peoples culture/beliefs/points of view etc

Nqp15hhu

McGaggs wrote: »

The intention of the plantation was to displace the indigenous people and their culture. The current unionists are against a part of their culture, as they no longer acknowledge it as their culture. They have tied themselves to a notion of Britishness, which leans towards englishness, rather than to the culture of the land their ancestors left, or where they now live. If they've chosen to only follow the part of their past that was all about dismantling the Irish religion, language and culture, I can't imagine they'd listen to the likes of us telling them that they're ignoring a part of their culture.

I'm reminded of an anecdote I was told about a group from some Scottish island who were in Belfast for a weekend, and wanted to watch the old firm match. They ended up in somewhere like the Sandy Row Rangers supporters club, and caused great confusion amongst the regulars by wearing Rangers jerseys, but speaking to each other in "Irish".

The Ulster Scots primarily came from Lowland Scotland which has much more in common with northern England.

Insect Overlord

beachhead wrote: »

Talk about drifting minds.Didn't this topic start as a language question of Ulster gaelic/Scots gaelic.Dialects dialects only.Now it's engineered as an an attack on peoples culture/beliefs/points of view etc

I think you're somewhat mistaken. Ulster Gaelic is not the same as Scottish Gàidhlig, and neither is anything like Ulster Scots.

LunAtlFringe

The confusion in this thread seems to be down to the difference between Scots and Scottish English. Now I’d be happy enough saying Scots and English were separate languages a la the Scandi languages in the past - look at the difference even as late as 1700s between Burns and say Samuel Johnson. Etymologies in dictionaries frequently cite Scots as the origin of a word for example. However what is spoken in Scotland today is Scottish English - a dialect of English heavily influenced by Scots. After 400 years of linguistic convergence following the union of the crowns, especially in the written language, it is basically impossible to try to retrieve old Scots as anything other than a bastardised spelling variation for the spoken language. Realistically the money should be ploughed into saving gaidhlig/gaelige which is legitimately unique and dying.

Scots was a language
Ulster Scots was a language by extension
Attempts to portray them as contemporary languages are at best misguided attempts to save something too far gone or more likely cynical points scoring

jmlad2020

Insect Overlord wrote: »

I think you're somewhat mistaken. Ulster Gaelic is not the same as Scottish Gàidhlig, and neither is anything like Ulster Scots.

Scottish Gaidhlig and Irish are as similar as German & Dutch (i.e. very similar) any speaker of either language understands this... A common language separated by a small sea and a blip in time.

Not sure what has informed your opinion. Lack of understanding maybe.

feargale

Scots was undoubtedly a separate language from English from say 1400 to 1700, and the main language of Scotland for much of that time. Mary Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I corresponded with each other in French. A Catholic priest berated John Knox for preaching in English rather than in Scots. I cannot be certain, but I think it may largely survive as a spoken if not a written language in a fairly pure form today in parts of the north-east of Scotland, around Aberdeen, Peterhead, Moray and Nairn. I have seen census returns for parts of the Ards Peninsula for 1901 and 1911 where family after family reported their language as "Scotch." That was at a time when this question had no political implications. Again I cannot recall exactly, but probably all such respondents were protestant.
That language was brought to Ulster and while it was spoken there in the 17th century but ultimately didn't thrive as a community language, it bred a vigorous folk tradition of poetry, with the weavers in the 18th century as well as a readership of Scottish writers such as Burns, and people such as Hewitt and Longley in the 20th century.
I would say that Ulster-Scots or "Ullans" is a dialect of Scots. But why should that bother anyone either way? Haven't Irish language speakers and enthusiasts paid great attention to dialects of Irish? It is said that Douglas Hyde's presidential inauguration speech, delivered in Roscommon Irish, is the only surviving record of that dialect and is greatly treasured as a consequence. The logical conclusion to the rubbishing of Ulster-Scots here is that the record of Dr. Hyde's speech should be binned.
"Realistically the money should be ploughed into saving gaidhlig/gaelige which is legitimately unique and dying." - so says the LunAtlFringe. What does unique mean? Irish and Gaidhlig have their backs to the wall. So do Scots and Ulster-Scots.
Here's another comment by LunAtlFringe: "Attempts to portray them as contemporary languages are at best misguided attempts to save something too far gone or more likely cynical points scoring." Yes, just as there are genuine lovers of Ulster-Scots no doubt there are also some people who would cynically use it for political point scoring. Sound familiar? Never heard of the very same where Irish is concerned?
Why on earth are so many of you upset because a few Ulster prods want to pursue a part of their heritage? Don't you ever look in the mirror? If it floats their boat what bloody harm is it doing you?
Ever see the small child who cried for a lollipop, got one and then bawled twice as loudly when his detested kid brother also got one? Remember parity of esteem, those great buzzwords? For some that means parity of esteem for us but not for them. No wonder so many of them want nothing to do with us.

NeuralNetwork

If you look at it from the point of view of the differences between some closely related continental European languages, for example some of the Scandinavian languages, it has a strong argument for being regarded as a full language.

Scots is a big part of the linguistic heritage in Ulster and could do with being depoliticised. You’ll find it in parts of eastern Donegal as well as Northern Ireland and it influences standard English spoken in Ulster and beyond.

If the Ulster Scots speakers consider it a language rather than a dialect, then that’s what it is.

It’s a part of Irish linguistic heritage and I think it’s really important to recognise that as we are going to have to share this island and those aspects of culture are just part of who we are. They’re just ridiculously politicised due to partition and labels of sectarianism.

You’ll find a very different view of Ulster Scots in eastern Donegal where pockets of speakers exist and were even more prevalent a couple of generations ago and without any of those political tinges.

I’ve ancestors who spoke Ulster Scots and were Catholic and fairly Republican. It’s just how they spoke there and there was a lot of connection, both historic and contemporary, to Scotland too due to migration patterns and just proximity. You’d a strong connection to Glasgow in particular and often those generations didn’t really speak standard English they spoke Ulster Scots or Glaswegian depending on where they were.

I didn’t grow up in Donegal but my late grandmother spoke Ulster Scots by default and it really did take a lot of getting your head around what she was saying. It’s not just an accent, the words, syntax & phrases are different. Often when I was living in Belgium you’d recognise words in Flemish based on stuff my grandmother said, which makes sense when you think about the linguistic connections between modern Dutch and old English.

feargale

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

If the Ulster Scots speakers consider it a language rather than a dialect, then that’s what it is.

Whatever it is my OH hardly understood a bloody word when she heard hurlers from the Glens on Dublin radio in 1989 as they prepared for the All-Ireland final.

There was a small volume on the languages of Ireland published in the 1970s, edited by Diarmuis Ó Muirithe, I think. I cannot recall the title though I have it buried somewhere. It said that an interpreter had been employed in a court in Donegal "within living memory." It also said that there was a tradition of West Donegal people who were accustomed to doing seasonal work in Scotland first spending some time working in East Donegal "to lift the Scotch."

NeuralNetwork

East Donegal communication with West Cork is challenging! You need specialist translators or both sides have to speak French as a compromise.

Nqp15hhu

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

If you look at it from the point of view of the differences between some closely related continental European languages, for example some of the Scandinavian languages, it has a strong argument for being regarded as a full language.

Scots is a big part of the linguistic heritage in Ulster and could do with being depoliticised. You’ll find it in parts of eastern Donegal as well as Northern Ireland and it influences standard English spoken in Ulster and beyond.

If the Ulster Scots speakers consider it a language rather than a dialect, then that’s what it is.

It’s a part of Irish linguistic heritage and I think it’s really important to recognise that as we are going to have to share this island and those aspects of culture are just part of who we are. They’re just ridiculously politicised due to partition and labels of sectarianism.

You’ll find a very different view of Ulster Scots in eastern Donegal where pockets of speakers exist and were even more prevalent a couple of generations ago and without any of those political tinges.

I’ve ancestors who spoke Ulster Scots and were Catholic and fairly Republican. It’s just how they spoke there and there was a lot of connection, both historic and contemporary, to Scotland too due to migration patterns and just proximity. You’d a strong connection to Glasgow in particular and often those generations didn’t really speak standard English they spoke Ulster Scots or Glaswegian depending on where they were.

I didn’t grow up in Donegal but my late grandmother spoke Ulster Scots by default and it really did take a lot of getting your head around what she was saying. It’s not just an accent, the words, syntax & phrases are different. Often when I was living in Belgium you’d recognise words in Flemish based on stuff my grandmother said, which makes sense when you think about the linguistic connections between modern Dutch and old English.

I have read your post and I appreciate your efforts. I agree with what you are saying with respect to depoliticisation in the sense that everyone in these areas speaks with this dialect - regardless of their heritage or views.

However, you are implying that the dialect is a form of Irish English. No - the whole point of it's status is that its a hybrid of Ulster Irish English and Southern Scottish English. It's not a typical Hiberno English dialect.

Which is the problem, that people in ROI (And NI Nationalists) have adopted this strategy of absorbing NI culture and referring to it as Irish. Well no, it's not general Irish culture because it doesn't exist for the most part in ROI. And if Northern Ireland did not exist, this dialect would still be a separate dialect because it has developed in a different manner to Southern Hiberno English.

It just shows again the inability of people in ROI to accept and tolerate NI's existence. Which again is a disconnect to how people here view the situation and is part of the reason why it exists (because you are pretending that these differences don't exist, or that they are some sort of regional difference, similar to the Cork V Dublin accent).

feargale

beachhead wrote: »

Talk about drifting minds.Didn't this topic start as a language question of Ulster gaelic/Scots gaelic.Dialects dialects only.Now it's engineered as an an attack on peoples culture/beliefs/points of view etc

You should see what happens when people try to initiate an academic discussion on boards on some aspect of the Irish language. Same intolerance, different clothes.

feargale

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

East Donegal communication with West Cork is challenging! You need specialist translators or both sides have to speak French as a compromise.

i have been at close quarters with the speech of every nook and cranny on this island and in the Republic I agree with East Donegal, but a more challenging outlier than West Cork is Cork City north and adjacent parts east of the city.