Is Ulster Scots a language?

NeuralNetwork

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

I have read your post and I appreciate your efforts. I agree with what you are saying with respect to depoliticisation in the sense that everyone in these areas speaks with this dialect - regardless of their heritage or views.

However, you are implying that the dialect is a form of Irish English. No - the whole point of it's status is that its a hybrid of Ulster Irish English and Southern Scottish English. It's not a typical Hiberno English dialect.

Which is the problem, that people in ROI (And NI Nationalists) have adopted this strategy of absorbing NI culture and referring to it as Irish. Well no, it's not general Irish culture because it doesn't exist for the most part in ROI. And if Northern Ireland did not exist, this dialect would still be a separate dialect because it has developed in a different manner to Southern Hiberno English.

It just shows again the inability of people in ROI to accept and tolerate NI's existence. Which again is a disconnect to how people here view the situation and is part of the reason why it exists (because you are pretending that these differences don't exist, or that they are some sort of regional difference, similar to the Cork V Dublin accent).

If it exists in Ireland it’s part of Irish linguistic heritage - Ireland being a geographic entity and a mix of cultures that coexist on this island. It’s the politics of the whole thing that drag language into a toxic place it simply shouldn’t be in.

There’s a significantly big Scots influence in Ireland and Irish influence in Scotland too.

Ulster Scots and Scots linguistic influence extend way beyond just Northern Ireland.

It’s just a pity that when talking about something as simple as the language people speak it has to turn into talk of partition, sectarianism and all of that mess.

The interesting thing about that part of Donegal is often those labels don’t apply, so you can see everything from Ulster Scots and Gaeilge coexisting without any tinge of politics or oddness to it. My dad for example would have been speaking Ulster Scots at home, yet did his Leaving Cert in Irish. That part of Donegal even has Orange Lodges and they just exist as part of the backdrop of the area, without the charged tensions.

Nqp15hhu

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

If it exists in Ireland it’s part of Irish linguistic heritage - Ireland being a geographic entity and a mix of cultures that coexist on this island. It’s the politics of the whole thing that drag language into a toxic place it simply shouldn’t be in.

There’s a significantly big Scots influence in Ireland and Irish influence in Scotland too.

Ulster Scots and Scots linguistic influence extend way beyond just Northern Ireland.

It’s just a pity that when talking about something as simple as the language people speak it has to turn into talk of partition, sectarianism and all of that mess.

The interesting thing about that part of Donegal is often those labels don’t apply, so you can see everything from Ulster Scots and Gaeilge coexisting without any tinge of politics or oddness to it. My dad for example would have been speaking Ulster Scots at home, yet did his Leaving Cert in Irish. That part of Donegal even has Orange Lodges and they just exist as part of the backdrop of the area, without the charged tensions.

You are making this point, which implies that I cannot acknowledge the truth of it, that NI has a separate identity because it has developed differently.

It does not matter that we are on the island of Ireland. The development of the Ulster Scots dialect with its unique Scottish influence and characteristics implies that it is a separate dialect to the rest of Hiberno English and should thus be considered on its own. I would state that this is true for most NI dialects (Mid Ulster English etc).

Even if you want to produce a flowchart, Ulster English (mostly NI) will be its own group - because it has separate linguistic characteristics.

Nqp15hhu

There is a constant reference to this Ulster Scots dialect in Donegal. I must be quite sheltered, most people in Eastern Donegal that I have met sound like people from Derry - especially young people. The Ulster Scots dialect does not start until the North coast in my experience.

Perhaps you are talking about the parts of Donegal near Strabane?

NeuralNetwork

Your point basically denies Donegal exists or has any right to speak Ulster Scots or that the standard English Ulster dialect exists beyond the border.

I’m not denying Northern Ireland exists, but you’re denying that linguistic history predates 1922.

I’ve immediate ancestry in Donegal and in Northern Ireland and a generation back also in Scotland.

I’ve also got direct ancestry in other parts of Europe, including France & Norway.

I just don’t really define things by modern geopolitical borders, which are meaningless anyway in the context of linguistics. People moved around - a lot!

It seems you can’t discuss anything to do with Northern Ireland without these heated politically charged debates. It becomes tedious after a while.

You’d really wonder about this island sometimes or even these islands. The various bits are as screwed up about identities as former Yugoslavia.

NeuralNetwork

Honestly sorry I posted. Really did not intend to get into a debate on NI politics. Really it is extremely tedious to spend your life tripping over and tiptoeing around eggshells.

Goodnight.

Kermit.de.frog

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

They haven't visited the Northern parts of NI and don't understand life here.

Do you all live in caves or something? I visit the north regularly and there is little difference. The roads are worse but aside from that Co Antrim has little to distinguish it from Co Waterford in terms of how people go about their lives.

Nqp15hhu

Well, when I visited Dublin it wasn't the same sorry. Completely different architecture in places, different shops, couldn't use my debit card and we had no clue how to use the traffic lights when crossing the road.

Kermit.de.frog

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Well, when I visited Dublin it wasn't the same sorry.

The rest of the country says that about Dublin so you are the same as them basically.

Kermit.de.frog

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

we had no clue how to use the traffic lights when crossing the road.

You push the button.

Nqp15hhu

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The rest of the country says that about Dublin so you are the same as them basically.

I'm afraid I'm just talking about my own experiences in visiting the city. It did feel very different in terms of services and the running of things. We couldn't even use our debit cards, that's a big difference.

Nqp15hhu

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Honestly sorry I posted. Really did not intend to get into a debate on NI politics. Really it is extremely tedious to spend your life tripping over and tiptoeing around eggshells.

Goodnight.

You seem to spend a lot of time talking about Brexit so not sure why you have taken this attitude. I don't know why you don't want me to express my opinion. Do you only want to engage with people who have the same opinions as you?

But feel free to go on and talk about the Ulster Scots dialect in Eastern Donegal. I am just going to observe now and add my opinion about local dialects here occasionally.

Kermit.de.frog

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

We couldn't even use our debit cards, that's a big difference.

Not to worry. With ever closer alignment and divergence from GB these things will sort themselves over the next while.

Hang in there.

Nqp15hhu

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not to worry. With ever closer alignment and divergence from GB these things will sort themselves over the next while.

Hang in there.

Thankfully the European Union has no say in our infrastructure - Kermit. I'm not sure why you would feel it necessary to leave such a toxic comment, rather than to embrace my view point. The whole premise of this thread seems to be to bash the idea of an Ulster Scots dialect even though most of these people have never heard it spoken in life.

Kermit.de.frog

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Thankfully the European Union has no say in our infrastructure - Kermit. I'm not sure why you would feel it necessary to leave such a toxic comment, rather than to embrace my view point. The whole premise of this thread seems to be to bash the idea of an Ulster Scots dialect even though most of these people have never heard it spoken in life.

You speak of the north like it's outer Mongolia. News flash - this is a small island. You are trying to ludicrously exaggerate difference.

People from Cork are more foreign to me than people from Coleraine ffs.

NeuralNetwork

Well, for a discussion about linguistics this has ended up in discussions about border politics, Brexit and where Dublin City Council does its traffic light shopping - the choice of which is nothing to do with the EU incidentally, nor are the road signs. The Republic's road signage has more in common with the US to a degree, but more so Australia and New Zealand than the UK or the EU lol

Nqp15hhu

I'm not going to engage in a discussion re differences, because people get offended and they just don't understand. If you want the best for the people of Northern Ireland, you will respect the ability to identify as I/we wish. So others can now go back and discuss the dialect.

NeuralNetwork

I suspect the thread's a write off at this stage anyway - it's just going to drift into politics and road signage.

It's a shame really as the Ulster Scots language and those connections are an interesting part of the island of Ireland's history and culture and worthy of discussion without all this stuff.

Quantum Erasure

So, census time in Northern Ireland, saw this on reddit with a comment:
"Did anyone else just answer it honestly? I have no connection to Ulster Scots, but I can understand it."





Also this...

https://twitter.com/ScottMoore0/status/1367807069085196290

Capt'n Midnight

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Well, for a discussion about linguistics this has ended up in discussions about border politics, Brexit and where Dublin City Council does its traffic light shopping - the choice of which is nothing to do with the EU incidentally, nor are the road signs. The Republic's road signage has more in common with the US to a degree, but more so Australia and New Zealand than the UK or the EU lol

Thanks to the Germans back in the 1920's our electrical system is a wee bit continental.

And our phone system followed the US rather than the UK. RJ45 connections, none of your mad BT ones.

feargale

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

So, census time in Northern Ireland, saw this on reddit with a comment:
"Did anyone else just answer it honestly? I have no connection to Ulster Scots, but I can understand it.

The same old story. Two kids wanting a lollipop, but each apoplectic about the other kid getting one, when if they valued what they profess to cherish they would join forces to screw two lollipops each out of the man with the bag.