Why not more range-extended electrics?

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

If the system was modular, then the generator could later be swapped out for more batteries or some hydrogen fuel cells, depending on what the need is and what infrastructure is available

You don't really need a Fuel Cell if the vehicle has a large enough battery and an ICE backup. Just burn the hydrogen directly in the ICE.

Kramer

Deleted User wrote: »

if the vehicle has a large enough battery......................You don't really need a Fuel Cell and or an ICE backup.
[You] just burn the hydrogen directly in the ICE. ......a few, well placed 150kW interurban/motorway charging hubs

Rearranged & fixed that for you :pac:.

the_amazing_raisin

Kramer wrote: »

Rearranged & fixed that for you :pac:.

Haha, hence my argument that an ice backup only makes sense for areas where there will never be good infrastructure or for time critical situations like emergency services

But yes, for almost all everyday situations the solution is to have good charging infrastructure

Lumen

If there's an argument to justify Ionity charging 10x night rate when you're out of range of home, there's an argument for making petrol 10 times more expensive to discourage the use of REx or ICE in PHEVs.

Let's see how long MadLads REx enthusiasm lasts with petrol at 12 euros a litre. :pac:

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

If there's an argument to justify Ionity charging 10x night rate when you're out of range of home, there's an argument for making petrol 10 times more expensive to discourage the use of REx or ICE in PHEVs.

Let's see how long MadLads REx enthusiasm lasts with petrol at 12 euros a litre. :pac:

That won't happen for a very long time if ever, the transition to alternative forms of propulsion will happen before Petrol ever becomes 10 times more expensive.

Petrol is already very expensive and until there's a suitable alternative to the ICE it will continue to power the worlds fleet of cars, including diesel. PHEV will become even more popular as car manufacturers make cars that the majority of People want and as I said, there is no reason a Rex can't be made to burn Bio fuel or Hydrogen, problem solved.

Can manufacturers will make cars that the Majority of People want and the majority of People do not want to bother with the hassles of charging no matter how frequent or not.

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Haha, hence my argument that an ice backup only makes sense for areas where there will never be good infrastructure or for time critical situations like emergency services

But yes, for almost all everyday situations the solution is to have good charging infrastructure

Rex is great for this!!! :P

the_amazing_raisin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Rex is great for this!!! :P

Or a second charger, seems like a simpler solution

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Or a second charger, seems like a simpler solution

Still one car waiting.

Why bother with all this if a Rex can eliminate it ? Less need for chargers too or no need at all.

2 Chargers at Kilcullen a few weeks ago and It took 20 mins to wait before I could get a charge, utter madness, only reason I stayed is because I was on the phone for ages and I wasn't in a rush.

kanuseeme

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Or a second charger, seems like a simpler solution

Or more

Kramer

Deleted User wrote: »

Still one car waiting.

Why bother with all this if a Rex can eliminate it ? Less need for chargers too or no need at all.

Why bother with electrics at all then? No need for any chargers & no hassle for anyone with broken chargers, cold batteries etc.?

PHEVs are/will be the stepping stone towards full BEV adoption.

Deleted User wrote: »

That won't happen for a very long time if ever

Did we ever think we'd be interned in our own homes, banned from travelling, socialising or even celebrating Christmas, this time last year?

Never say never..............:pac:.

Kramer

Kramer wrote: »

Why bother with electrics at all then? No need for any chargers & no hassle for anyone with broken chargers, cold batteries etc.?

PHEVs are/will be the stepping stone towards full BEV adoption.

Why bother with electrics at all ? well because they are a far cheaper more efficient way to travel and they greatly reduce pollution in town and city. A big battery and generator mean the car will act as most people expect/want of an EV and that is the ability to go anywhere any time without worry of running out of charge, having to stop when it's inconvenient etc etc. ICE can run on biofuel today and Hydrogen in the future. It's the best way to get people to convert that and making more models available at a decent price.

The Rex isn't a normal PHEV, in a normal PHEV the engine is the main source of power and the batteries hold much less power.

Kramer wrote: »

Did we ever think we'd be interned in our own homes, banned from travelling, socialising or even celebrating Christmas, this time last year?

Never say never..............:pac:.

You're not banned from anything, the Government can't stop you visiting family, friends for Christmas or travelling anywhere on the Island but that's different topic.

SeanW

Kramer wrote: »

Why bother with electrics at all then? No need for any chargers & no hassle for anyone with broken chargers, cold batteries etc.?

PHEVs are/will be the stepping stone towards full BEV adoption.



Did we ever think we'd be interned in our own homes, banned from travelling, socialising or even celebrating Christmas, this time last year?

Never say never..............:pac:.

Electric has its uses. They're best suited to people who live in houses with private driveways and can install a home charger, anyone else would be dependent on public charging.

They're also most useful for people who ONLY use their cars for short to medium range travel and most always bring them home at night.

If you:

• Don't have a private driveway or garage.
• Ever have to travel hundreds of miles in a single day.
• Ever have to park overnight away from home.

Then you need a backup plan. That's why I would find an REx very useful and I suspect I'm not alone in that regard. As it stands, I would not eschew a liquid fuel capable car unless forced to by law.

Kramer

SeanW wrote: »

Electric has its uses.

If you:

• Don't have a private driveway or garage.
  
  agree - you need home charging
  
  
• Ever have to travel hundreds of miles in a single day.
  
  Many new BEVs can travel 500km+ now, with just a single 20 minute stop. That's more than enough on this small island - we just need more chargers.
  
  
• Ever have to park overnight away from home.
  
  I dunno, but I doubt few if any, overnighting away from home here, wouldn't be able to find an overnight AC point or domestic 3 pin socket to plug in to.

I would not eschew a liquid fuel capable car unless forced to by law.

We will all be taxed out of ICE'd vehicles in future.

Kramer

Kramer wrote: »

We will all be taxed out of ICE'd vehicles in future.

They can only do this if viable options are available and apart from some EV enthusiasts that will adapt their lives around their EV most People don't want to and I've talked to a hell of a lot of People about this and 99.9% of them say the same thing, the EV has to be as convenient as the ICE and there needs to be a hell of a lot more chargers. There's not even a hint of chargers appearing in most garages.

Car manufacturers will have to build cars People actually want to drive and a good place to start until a better solution comes along are cars with 30-60 Kwh with backup generators anything less is just not as good as ICE.

Currently there is no BEV available that is as convenient as an ICE apart from the Rex.

Perhaps with the move to Solid State batteries will greatly solve at least the cold charging issue along with charge times but we're a while away from this. If you can charge in 10 mins to 80% I think a lot more People will be willing to accept this as a viable alternative including a much better choice of cars.

Taxing People out of ICE is not going to happen or work until the manufacturers themselves come up with a better solution to today's EV.

Rex with Bio fuel has huge advantages, massively reduced need for Petrol and Diesel but even a Rex on Petrol massively reduces the need for Petrol and you have the convenience of EV with peace of mind the Rex provides without all that nonsense related to waiting to charge and queues, broken chargers etc.

Taxing People out of ICE isn't going to happen until the alternative is there that is suitable and even then if the suitable alternative is there People will naturally go with it and the Government won't have to do anything about it.

Kramer

Deleted User wrote: »

Taxing People out of ICE isn't going to happen until the alternative is there that is suitable and even then if the suitable alternative is there People will naturally go with it and the Government won't have to do anything about it.

That's the carrot or stick analogy.

The greens don't do carrots but wield a big stick - tax :pac:.

Kramer

Kramer wrote: »

That's the carrot or stick analogy.

The greens don't do carrots but wield a big stick - tax :pac:.

They can't do this, People will just drive older and older diesels, they can't force People to get loans they can not pay back or struggle just because the Greens want cars off the road, it's not going to happen, it didn't happen in this budget or the last nor will it happen in the next.

As I said, when the car manufacturers offer an ICE replacement that's good enough and cheaper to run than ICE People will flock to them and the Government won't have to do anything about it but at the moment in reality no EV is a Real replacement for EV and the thoughts of messing about with chargers and queues is far from appealing and so is 30 mins to 1hr charge times.

Electrics are still too expensive.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

They can only do this if viable options are available and apart from some EV enthusiasts that will adapt their lives around their EV most People don't want to and I've talked to a hell of a lot of People about this and 99.9% of them say the same thing, the EV has to be as convenient as the ICE and there needs to be a hell of a lot more chargers. There's not even a hint of chargers appearing in most garages.

I too have talked to a lot of people about switching, almost nobody says they need an EV to be as convenient as an ICE vehicle, those with driveways all say their next car will probably be an EV. The biggest roadblock to switching for most of them is the lack of choice on the second hand market. Most are not willing (or able) to buy a new car, we need a few years of strong new sales to feed enough vehicles into the second hand market.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

I too have talked to a lot of people about switching, almost nobody says they need an EV to be as convenient as an ICE vehicle, those with driveways all say their next car will probably be an EV. The biggest roadblock to switching for most of them is the lack of choice on the second hand market. Most are not willing (or able) to buy a new car, we need a few years of strong new sales to feed enough vehicles into the second hand market.

We must live in very different worlds then because no one has said to me they want an EV until they can charge a lot faster and drive a lot further.

beauf

I would buy one as second car if the only cheap option wasn't a leaf. I couldn't live with the looks inside or out. Our main car is a MPV nothing reasonable in BEVs that could replace it. I would want a large 5/7 seater thats a Rex ideally. It's does short journeys 95% of the time the other 5% will be long journeys.

Of course none of this is happening now it's all short journeys and no one is going to work. I could keep the current MPV for when we need it and switch to smaller EV for most journey's. But it would still have to havet 5 full sized seats and a large boot. Not a leaf and not be too expensive.

beauf

Or just keep the current petrol cars. I'm losing less in depreciation, with low mileage not costing the earth in fuel. My only really negative is high tax. Which isnt that much compared to depreciation and fuel.

I'm wondering if a 1.0 MPV might be better long term replacement. With something fun like a Mini EV as a second car. Might be too compromised though.

beauf

This year was meant to full of long driving holidays. So a diesel MPV was in the cards. Well that ain't happening for a while.

the_amazing_raisin

beauf wrote: »

This year was meant to full of long driving holidays. So a diesel MPV was in the cards. Well that ain't happening for a while.

I know how you feel, my 5 year old Leaf currently has 10 times more range than I need

deravarra

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I know how you feel, my 5 year old Leaf currently has 10 times more range than I need

50-100 km?

the_amazing_raisin

deravarra wrote: »

50-100 km?

100-125km, can't travel more than 5km, so that's 10km round trip

During lockdown I was charging the leaf once a week, and it was the main car being used

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

100-125km, can't travel more than 5km,

Can't travel more than 5 Km that's news to me, was the law changed recently to restrict us to 5 K or is that just a recommendation ?

the_amazing_raisin

Deleted User wrote: »

Can't travel more than 5 Km that's news to me, was the law changed recently to restrict us to 5 K or is that just a recommendation ?

Level 5 includes the 5km limit


https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2dc71-level-5/


You're allowed out for work and essential travel, but supposed to stay within the limit for leisure travel

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Level 5 includes the 5km limit


https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2dc71-level-5/


You're allowed out for work and essential travel, but supposed to stay within the limit for leisure travel

It's meaningless, you can go and travel where you want as there isn't a law yet to stop you but that's OT now.

liamog

Mod Note: Coronavirus (COVID-19) forum is that way --- until the restrictions ban the use of Range Extenders, further Covid discussion is OT.

SeanW

ba_barabus wrote: »

I posted much earlier on about E Power in the thread but I've been reading since. The dealer I spoke with said that the E Power Qashqai due at the end of 2021 that he was suggesting I wait for, had a 40kwh battery, with plug in and a BEV setup hence why its really peaked my interest. It would suit me in every single way. I'd snap his hand off for it.

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

That's a quite a difference from current e-power set up. The Note has less than 2kWh. Here's hoping for a 40kWh battery but I doubt it.

Unfortunately, it looks like those Nissan Qashqais are not going to have plug-in range. The 2022 model year crossovers are going to have two options, a 1.3 mild hybrid and a 1.5 petrol-electric. Basically, it looks like the latter is going to be an electric car but without a chargeable battery, solely powered by a petrol generator.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2021-nissan-qashqai-engine-options-confirmed-all-are-electrified-154543.html#

That's a shame because it would be really good to have an EV to charge up for short haul driving (e.g. short haul commuting and trips to the supermarket) that you can tank up for long distance driving or an epic road trip. This Qashqai might be easier to maintain than a hybrid or a traditional ICE, maybe a little more fuel efficient, but that's going to be pretty much the only advantage.

Busman Paddy Lasty

From Carmagazine.co.uk yesterday

"You'll only get up to two miles of battery-only driving before the engine cuts in again, but Nissan is confident that buyers will really warm to the EV-like driving experience that e-Power brings to the party."

So about 1 kWh of usable capacity before the engine kicks in.

Keep an eye out for Kia Niro phevs or others with a 50km ish range hitting the second hand market.

loopymum

2 kms range on battery is pathetic. Is it even worthwhile?

Busman Paddy Lasty

loopymum wrote: »

2 kms range on battery is pathetic. Is it even worthwhile?

No. Certainly not if you have a charge point at home already or like the OP want daily trips fully electric.

loopymum

loopymum wrote: »

2 kms range on battery is pathetic. Is it even worthwhile?

If they ditch the Diesel People might not have the choice if they want the Quashqai. Not necessarily a bad thing but there should be an all electric version and Nissan probably can't make them at a decent price or just can't get the batteries or both.

There's no other reason not make an all electric version, it's pathetic that the Leaf is still Nissan's only fully electric car.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

No. Certainly not if you have a charge point at home already or like the OP want daily trips fully electric.

I think it's "self charging", no plug. In reality it's a petrol car with an electric drivetrain, plus a small battery to allow for the EV power experience when taking off from the lights and regen.

Busman Paddy Lasty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think it's "self charging", no plug. In reality it's a petrol car with an electric drivetrain, plus a small battery to allow for the EV power experience when taking off from the lights and regen.

For sure. The lack of plug and no decent fully electric range is why this system is a waste of time in my opinion. A phev that can do over 10 times the range is a far superior product.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

For sure. The lack of plug and no decent fully electric range is why this system is a waste of time in my opinion. A phev that can do over 10 times the range is a far superior product.

There's absolutely no reason Nissan can't make a car like the i3 Rex other than they don't want to or they can't get the supply of batteries.

Maybe they're trying to get one last return on their petrol engine development investments before they become unsellable.
Just think about all the many millions Nissan and other "traditional" car manufacturers have tied up in engine plants and on recent engine development research that they want to see a return on.

Busman Paddy Lasty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe they're trying to get one last return on their petrol engine development investments before they become unsellable.
Just think about all the many millions Nissan and other "traditional" car manufacturers have tied up in engine plants and on recent engine development research that they want to see a return on.

That's where it gets interesting. Mitsi Outlander has a 2.4l and Renault Captur phev has a 1.6l petrol. Alliance partners!

Outlander has 46g/km CO2, Captur 34g/km so with a phev can still sell an engine and get >140 mpg.

ba_barabus

SeanW wrote: »

Unfortunately, it looks like those Nissan Qashqais are not going to have plug-in range. The 2022 model year crossovers are going to have two options, a 1.3 mild hybrid and a 1.5 petrol-electric. Basically, it looks like the latter is going to be an electric car but without a chargeable battery, solely powered by a petrol generator.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2021-nissan-qashqai-engine-options-confirmed-all-are-electrified-154543.html#

That's a shame because it would be really good to have an EV to charge up for short haul driving (e.g. short haul commuting and trips to the supermarket) that you can tank up for long distance driving or an epic road trip. This Qashqai might be easier to maintain than a hybrid or a traditional ICE, maybe a little more fuel efficient, but that's going to be pretty much the only advantage.

I spotted that, a great shame. I do like the tech and it should make ownership an easy experience. Interesting to see the MPG

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe they're trying to get one last return on their petrol engine development investments before they become unsellable.
Just think about all the many millions Nissan and other "traditional" car manufacturers have tied up in engine plants and on recent engine development research that they want to see a return on.

The Petrol engine is going nowhere for a long time, Electric cars and recharge times are still quite pathetic particularly with cold batteries, no one only some EV enthusiasts will put up with this madness of hanging around chargers no matter how infrequent they use them and think of all the People that have no home charging ? all over the World that's a lot of People, the last thing they want/need is to hang around chargers for 30 mins to 1 hr.

When electrics are good enough and cheap enough the petrol ICE will disappear just like the LCD tv replaced the CRT, when the LCD first came out they were very expensive and the picture quality was absolute shyte, the CRT was by far the best for a good number of years later but then the LCD got much cheaper and picture quality greatly improved.

Ireland is an insignificant marker for any car manufacturer and the larger markets will dictate what we drive in the end.

It's really bad that Nissan still only have the Leaf since it's development in 2009.