Covid 19 Part XXX-113,332 ROI(2,282 deaths) 81,251 NI (1,384 deaths) (05/01) Read OP

ElJeffe

niallo27 wrote: »

Yours is not sharp, yours involves closing all hospitality until March and putting hundreds of thousands of jobs out of work for all of January.

You aren't reading my posts correctly again.

Level 3 after January i said. Much hospitality is open in level 3.

niallo27

ElJeffe wrote: »

We'd have rolling lockdowns because the half arsed levels we have don't work. We never got less than 250 cases a day with the measures we took. You can't vaccinate people if they are already in hospital sick with the virus.

Another massive issue here is the HSE have had 10 months to prepare for this and yet there is no clear plan of how to vaccinate the at risk. Will the doctor do it, will you have to attend the hospitals, will there be dedicated centres set up to deal with it. Where's the info?

Speed is an issue here and as we all know the HSE moves like a stoned snail.

The most we have had in hospital is a few hundred, few hundred out of 5 million is not going make any difference. I agree with you about the hse but these issues will be there no matter what plan we take.

crossman47

h2005 wrote: »

So 24 EU countries don’t have the same issues with informed content or safety as us? There was so much time to prepare for this, I can’t fathom how we have to delay.

In fairness, most of them don't experience health litigation led by ambulance chasing lawyers like we do.

niallo27

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Niall, did you know that public health teams around the globe are using the same google data that I post here?
No, of course you didn't. It's valuable and valid data.

The hospitals are going to come under enormous stress in the coming weeks/months, and loads of people are going to die because the government disregarded expert advice on restrictions.

I can't predict what will happen just go by what happened before, you said all lockdowns have failed so far but do your admit our hospitals were never close to being overwhelmed and our deaths stayed low.

stephenjmcd

ElJeffe wrote: »

We'd have rolling lockdowns because the half arsed levels we have don't work. We never got less than 250 cases a day with the measures we took. You can't vaccinate people if they are already in hospital sick with the virus.

Another massive issue here is the HSE have had 10 months to prepare for this and yet there is no clear plan of how to vaccinate the at risk. Will the doctor do it, will you have to attend the hospitals, will there be dedicated centres set up to deal with it. Where's the info?

Speed is an issue here and as we all know the HSE moves like a stoned snail.

The information is here, clearly says the settings you'll attend. The list is also widely available of the mass vaccination centres to be set up and the locations already agreed.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.gov.ie/108854/babc7d1b-cb10-49db-8dd0-0c7408dea162.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwig__Ho1fDtAhWhVBUIHVT9AmYQFjAXegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw2cS_aV6e120DrBHashtD7k&cshid=1609158362436

The current proposed mass vaccination centres with more to follow

Tallaght University Hospital, Dublin
St. James Hospital, Dublin
Beaumont Hospital, Dublin
Cavan General Hospital
Letterkenny University Hospital, Donegal
Mayo General Hospital
University Hospital Limerick
Cork University Hospital
University Hospital Waterford
University Hospital Galway
Regional Hospital Mullingar, Westmeath
Community Nursing Units
Killarney Community Hospital
Merlin Park University Hospital, Galway
Maynooth Community Care Unit, Kildare
Riada House Community Nursing Unit, Tullamore
Regina House Community Nursing Unit, Clare
Mount Carmel Hospital, Dublin


When AstraZeneca/Oxford comes on stream then you'd probably be more likely to simply attend your GP or pharmacy given its storage requirements and likeness to the flu vaccine

niallo27

ElJeffe wrote: »

You aren't reading my posts correctly again.

Level 3 after January i said. Much hospitality is open in level 3.

Sorry I thought indoor hospitality was closed at level 3.

bb1234567

ElJeffe wrote: »

Not Ireland related but what selfish horrible people.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/27/hundreds-uk-tourists-flee-covid-quarantine-swiss-ski-resort-verbier

Words fail me.

8,000 pound fine to 210 tourists, 1.7m profit for that Swiss council, well set for the year ahead :pac: Must be secretly delighted to see these ignorant Brits heading over to the resorts

TonyMaloney

niallo27 wrote: »

The most we have had in hospital is a few hundred, few hundred out of 5 million is not going make any difference. I agree with you about the hse but these issues will be there no matter what plan we take.

No, the most we had in hospital was 881 seriously ill people. We now have 360, after 39 admissions in the last 24 hours.
We appear to be on a very similar trajectory to March with hospitalisations
much worse than we saw in October.

AutoTuning

h2005 wrote: »

So 24 EU countries don’t have the same issues with informed content or safety as us? There was so much time to prepare for this, I can’t fathom how we have to delay.

To be fair we are far, far more litigious than any of our EU neighbours. It seems probable that ensuring it’s legally watertight, rather than any technical issue is the reason.

Hopefully we don’t freeze ourselves to the floor with fear of legal issues though.

I know I’ve found discussing things with doctors here can result in weird responses. For example, a relative of mine had an unusual cancer and it was hard to diagnose due to subtle symptoms. She’s a woman in her late 80s with a sense of humour and she was just chatting away to a doctor and said “ah sure it was hard to find. It’s a sneaky b*** of thing isn’t it?! I know we did all the tests and sure it didn’t show up.”

Her GP’s response was “I did absolutely everything! Are you accusing me of something? I can assure you we did absolutely everything!!” and he literally went ice cold and really agressive with her.

The result of that was she felt she couldn’t go to the GP anymore and didn’t for months, which I only found out recently.

I also found similarly aggressive attitudes when I tried to talk to a doctor about what happened to my mother when she took a fatal stroke. They wouldn’t talk to me and got really legalistic which resulted in me thinking they were trying to hide something, which they weren’t. Their immediate assumption is you’re trying to sue them.

stephenjmcd

AutoTuning wrote: »

To be fair we are far, far more litigious than any of our EU neighbours. It seems probable that ensuring it’s legally watertight, rather than any technical issue is the reason.

Hopefully we don’t freeze ourselves to the floor with fear of legal issues though.

I know I’ve found discussing things with doctors here can result in weird responses. For example, a relative of mine had an unusual cancer and it was hard to diagnose due to subtle symptoms. She’s a woman in her late 80s with a sense of humour and she was just chatting away to a doctor and said “ah sure it was hard to find. It’s a sneaky b*** of thing isn’t it?! I know we did all the tests and sure it didn’t show up.”

Her GP’s response was “I did absolutely everything! Are you accusing me of something? I can assure you we did absolutely everything!!” and he literally went ice cold and really agressive with her.

The result of that was she felt she couldn’t go to the GP anymore and didn’t for months, which I only found out recently.

I also found similarly aggressive attitudes when I tried to talk to a doctor about what happened to my mother when she took a fatal stroke. They wouldn’t talk to me and got really legalistic which resulted in me thinking they were trying to hide something, which they weren’t. Their immediate assumption is you’re trying to sue them.

Got that from Varadkars interview this morning where he was saying Ireland appears to be litigious than other countries. Everything needed to be very water tight.

No idea why but the first reaction of someone in Ireland when anything goes wrong and not just medically is to sue.

bb1234567

AutoTuning wrote: »

To be fair we are far, far more litigious than any of our EU neighbours. It seems probable that ensuring it’s legally watertight, rather than any technical issue is the reason.

Hopefully we don’t freeze ourselves to the floor with fear of legal issues though.

I know I’ve found discussing things with doctors here can result in weird responses. For example, a relative of mine had an unusual cancer and it was hard to diagnose due to subtle symptoms. She’s a woman in her late 80s with a sense of humour and she was just chatting away to a doctor and said “ah sure it was hard to find. It’s a sneaky b*** of thing isn’t it?! I know we did all the tests and sure it didn’t show up.”

Her GP’s response was “I did absolutely everything! Are you accusing me of something? I can assure you we did absolutely everything!!” and he literally went ice cold and really agressive with her.

The result of that was she felt she couldn’t go to the GP anymore and didn’t for months, which I only found out recently.

I also found similarly aggressive attitudes when I tried to talk to a doctor about what happened to my mother when she took a fatal stroke. They wouldn’t talk to me and got really legalistic which resulted in me thinking they were trying to hide something, which they weren’t. Their immediate assumption is you’re trying to sue them.

It's a big pity that claim culture has led to breakdown of trust between medical patients and health staff where it is so vitally important. Although I had maybe wrongly thought it was very difficult for doctors or GP's to become legally liable even in cases of wrong doing or mistakes?

Stheno

TonyMaloney wrote: »

No, the most we had in hospital was 881 seriously ill people. We now have 360, after 39 admissions in the last 24 hours.
We appear to be on a very similar trajectory to March with hospitalisations
much worse than we saw in October.

Let's see the hospital figures Tuesday after an extended Bank Holiday weekend

whisky_galore

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Got that from Varadkars interview this morning where he was saying Ireland appears to be litigious than other countries. Everything needed to be very water tight.

No idea why but the first reaction of someone in Ireland when anything goes wrong and not just medically is to sue.

Because we are greedy and grasping.

Trip over something here and "will you sue?" will be said, either jokingly or seriously.

Ficheall

stephenjmcd wrote: »

No idea why but the first reaction of someone in Ireland when anything goes wrong and not just medically is to sue.

Because the judges award them stupid sums of money.

TonyMaloney

Stheno wrote: »

Let's see the hospital figures Tuesday after an extended Bank Holiday weekend

Sure, there may be a large number of discharges come Tuesday, but there's no getting away from the fact that our rate of admission is very high and growing.

This is not sustainable. Our hospitals are in real trouble again.

niallo27

TonyMaloney wrote: »

No, the most we had in hospital was 881 seriously ill people. We now have 360, after 39 admissions in the last 24 hours.
We appear to be on a very similar trajectory to March with hospitalisations
much worse than we saw in October.

The point I was making was in relation to hospital numbers making a significant difference to people getting vaccinated. We coped in March, I'm sure we will again. It's not like we are ignoring it, all hospitality has been closed.

TonyMaloney

niallo27 wrote: »

The point I was making was in relation to hospital numbers making a significant difference to people getting vaccinated. We coped in March, I'm sure we will again. It's not like we are ignoring it, all hospitality has been closed.

We have about 2 weeks of continued case growth to come, hospitalisations will continue to grow for weeks after that.
I can't be certain of where this all ends, but there are signs in the data that we're in big trouble.

We already have a huge number of hospitalisations baked in. Many of the people who will end up in hospital already have the virus. It's too late to vaccinate them.

mandrake04

whisky_galore wrote: »

Because we are greedy and grasping.

Trip over something here and "will you sue?" will be said, either jokingly or seriously.

The claim culture is reflected in cost of car insurance, everyone knows it but the culture continues.

Cost of car insurance in Ireland is insane.

Ficheall

iguana wrote: »

Anybody who cared to actually pay attention in February knew pretty much exactly what we were dealing with. We had a very good idea of how contagious it was, the most likely hospitalisation rate and IFR.

Ah now, that's not really true. The hospitalisation rates and IFR were predicted to be much higher. I was definitely on the more cautious end of the scale - bought a new storage freezer in January and got a few months' worth of food in and went into isolation before the end of February, but the disease itself has proven only about a tenth as bad as expected. The response (not referring to the vaccines) has also been a lot less effective than expected though, so..

clubberlang12

TonyMaloney wrote: »

No, the most we had in hospital was 881 seriously ill people. We now have 360, after 39 admissions in the last 24 hours.
We appear to be on a very similar trajectory to March with hospitalisations
much worse than we saw in October.

We didn't have 881 seriously ill people with Covid. We had 881 who tested "positive", and positive results are not an absolute indication of the virus being active in the subject at time of test(we can get into a whole different argument about the validation of PCR positive results regarding subject being actively sick or infectious, but I'm sure the thread doesn't need that).

We also know not all admissions who test positive are admitted because of Covid issues, and may be admitted for something entirely different with no Covid symptoms at all but test positive after admission. We also know that patients can contract Covid while in hospital as we have witnessed from hospital outbreaks, which in turn increases Covid positive confirmed cases in hospitals, despite not being admitted for Covid issues.

To say 881 seriously ill people were hospitalised is a very misleading and untrue statement.

TonyMaloney

clubberlang12 wrote: »

We didn't have 881 seriously ill people with Covid. We had 881 who tested "positive", and positive results are not an absolute indication of the virus being active in the subject at time of test(we can get into a whole different argument about the validation of PCR positive results regarding subject being actively sick or infectious, but I'm sure the thread doesn't need that).

We also know not all admissions who test positive are admitted because of Covid issues, and may be admitted for something entirely different with no Covid symptoms at all but test positive after admission. We also know that patients can contract Covid while in hospital as we have witnessed from hospital outbreaks, which in turn increases Covid positive confirmed cases in hospitals, despite not being admitted for Covid issues.

To say 881 seriously ill people were hospitalised is a very misleading and untrue statement.

Oh stop being so pious

If you're in hospital you're usually seriously ill. Some wouldn't be particularly ill. You got me on a very pedantic point. Well played.

Plumbthedepths

clubberlang12 wrote: »

We didn't have 881 seriously ill people with Covid. We had 881 who tested "positive", and positive results are not an absolute indication of the virus being active in the subject at time of test(we can get into a whole different argument about the validation of PCR positive results regarding subject being actively sick or infectious, but I'm sure the thread doesn't need that).

We also know not all admissions who test positive are admitted because of Covid issues, and may be admitted for something entirely different with no Covid symptoms at all but test positive after admission. We also know that patients can contract Covid while in hospital as we have witnessed from hospital outbreaks, which in turn increases Covid positive confirmed cases in hospitals, despite not being admitted for Covid issues.

To say 881 seriously ill people were hospitalised is a very misleading and untrue statement.

Excellent response.

SpacialNeeds

bb1234567 wrote: »

It's a big pity that claim culture has led to breakdown of trust between medical patients and health staff where it is so vitally important. Although I had maybe wrongly thought it was very difficult for doctors or GP's to become legally liable even in cases of wrong doing or mistakes?

The insurance companies don't appreciate claims being made. As a medical professional if you're causing claims to be made, you'll be investigated by your hospital at best and let go from your position if it is found to be a failing in your professional conduct.

There's a very fine line between an unfortunate medical inevitability and missed indicators of future issues. Staff aren't going to want to bring that on themselves.

It's the same as in a large number of industries. Car dealers, teachers, shop assistants, any public-facing job has much greater risk of legal threats lately because everyone wants to make a quick few bob and as somebody dealing with the great unwashed, you're exposed. It's just unfortunate that the consequence is that you can't trust your doctor anymore, and vice versa.

On another note, my (ex) family doctor has literally killed two elderly people by overprescribing medication and nearly killed another (except that their family stepped in and got a second opinion). He's still operating with impunity.

clubberlang12

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Oh stop being so pious

If you're in hospital you're usually seriously ill. Some wouldn't be particularly ill. You got me on a very pedantic point. Well played.

If 10 people are in hospital for a operation on a broken and dislocated thumb........are the 10 seriously ill? Is one even seriously ill? Not all admissions are because of illness/sickness.

The only pedantic point was yours in trying to over inflate your argument using a false narrative.

Don't take facts so personally in future.

TonyMaloney

clubberlang12 wrote: »

If 10 people are in hospital for a operation on a broken and dislocated thumb........are the 10 seriously ill? Is one even seriously ill? Not all admissions are because of illness/sickness.

The only pedantic point was yours in trying to over inflate your argument using a false narrative.

Don't take facts so personally in future.

I haven't taken anything personally, I'm just bored by your semantic argument.

I concede. Well done. Lets not talk about this boring crap any more, and get back to the actual issues at hand.

Stheno

TonyMaloney wrote: »

I haven't taken anything personally, I'm just bored by your semantic argument.

I concede. Well done. Lets not talk about this boring crap any more, and get back to the actual issues at hand.

Does that mean an end to the endless graphs?
Great news if so

bb1234567

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Oh stop being so pious

If you're in hospital you're usually seriously ill. Some wouldn't be particularly ill. You got me on a very pedantic point. Well played.

It's not really pedanticism, it's a valid point, 40%(can't remember if it was 35% or 45% so I'll go with 40) of people who were in hospital in Autumn with COVID either contracted it in hospital or arrived for different reasons and tested positive. However , it doesn't mean COVID did not exacerbate the other health issues they were hospitalised for, or that COVID did not make recovery harder for the sick people in hospital who unfortunately became infected there. It's complete supposition on my part, however it could well be true in some of the cases so can't just completely dismiss that cohort as experiencing no COVID issues without further information. Either way, definitely cannot take 'hospitalised with COVID' at such face value.

As for the graphs you post I don't see why anybody has to be rude about that, I thought they are interesting even if I didn't have anything to add about them.

TonyMaloney

Stheno wrote: »

Does that mean an end to the endless graphs?
Great news if so

Thanks for that

you're clearly a very thoughtful and nice person

TonyMaloney

bb1234567 wrote: »

It's not really pedanticism, it's a valid point, 40%(can't remember if it was 35% or 45% so I'll go with 40) of people who were in hospital in Autumn with COVID either contracted it in hospital or arrived for different reasons and tested positive. However , it doesn't mean COVID did not exacerbate the other health issues they were hospitalised for, or that COVID did not make recovery harder for the sick people in hospital who unfortunately became infected there. It's complete supposition on my part, however it could well be true so can't just completely dismiss the proportion as experiencing no COVID issues without further information. Either way, definitely cannot take 'hospitalised with COVID' at such face value.

Right. And that's why I conceded the point.

It doesn't make a blind bit of difference to what I'm trying to say - that our hospitals are in real jeopardy again - but please everyone continue to beat me about the head for something I already admitted to.

Eivor

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Oh stop being so pious

If you're in hospital you're usually seriously ill. Some wouldn't be particularly ill. You got me on a very pedantic point. Well played.

Not necessarily seriously I’ll with covid