George Nkencho shooting *Mod warning Added to OP*

AngeloArgue

givyjoe wrote: »

A simple explanation to this is that he was trying to enter the house, which obviously puts those inside at risk.

Yes, I can see that. But then was that risk of harm "imminent" or "Probable"?
Many would question the use of lethal force to stop a probable risk to someone else.

givyjoe

AngeloArgue wrote: »

Yes, I can see that. But then was that risk of harm "imminent" or "Probable"?
Many would question the use of lethal force to stop a probable risk to someone else.

They many.. obviously don't know what they're talking about. Are you seriously suggesting the guards should have let the guy go back into the house?!

Beltby

Beltby wrote: »

Or, he turned away after getting sprayed, realised it hadn't worked, went berserk and tried to slice open a garda.

They may well have deployed a taser also and that caused him to become infuriated. The problem here is everyone’s assuming what happened before an official statement detailing the full incident is released. The gardai are being criticised based on a fairly crappy video that shows the final moments before the incident concluded.

titan18

titan18 wrote: »

Sure, I can see the logic on that but if the lad had murdered 14 of the guards and the remaining one killed him, the same crowd protesting now would still be protesting

They'd be saying the last Guard should have ankle picked him.

Beltby

AngeloArgue wrote: »

Yes, I can see that. But then was that risk of harm "imminent" or "Probable"?
Many would question the use of lethal force to stop a probable risk to someone else.

It will all come out in the inquest.

Speculating is useless. No one on this thread has seen anything more than the video you have seen yourself. And as you say, that's inconclusive.

Sir Oxman

Acosta wrote: »

Apologies for the late reply.

I never said racists were the origins of the story that the weapon was a machete, but some of those racist, faceless, nameless accounts is the only place other than here that I saw it mentioned. The same goes for these ''whatsapp'' messages and the fake pic of the shop worker, that also ended up on here. I never even said it wasn't a machete, I don't know if it was. If someone's goal is to stoke as much racial tension as possible out of an incident like this, a machete is always going to sound better in a tweet than simply saying a knife.



The far right and a lot of fairly disgusting profiles have been tweeting about this incident morning, noon and night since it happened. They're revelling in it. A good few tweets from these profiles ended up on this thread.

On the other side of the very close circle of racism, a ton of racist white, black, Asian people have been busy posting lie upon lie on every platform available depicting utter non-contextual comparisons to other successful disarming of criminal scumbags as proof that our entire nation is racist.
The racists from the 'exterme far right' side are very closely aligned with racists from the 'extreme modern left' and together they are plentiful.
Some even have the weight of lawmakers behind them.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They'd be saying the last Guard should have ankle picked him.

“Sure when he was busy letting out his bottled up frustrations at being racially profiled on those racist Garda the other racists could’ve cuffed him but they couldn’t pass up on the opportunity to kill an innocent black man who wouldn’t hurt anyone sure I bet those guards dared him to do that it’s not his fault like he has mental health issues”

AngeloArgue

AngeloArgue wrote: »

Yes, I can see that. But then was that risk of harm "imminent" or "Probable"?
Many would question the use of lethal force to stop a probable risk to someone else.

That is exactly when you can use lethal force.

piplip87

Jaysus this whole making a BLM issue of this is failing outside social media. Apart from the few protests theres no mass movement. I'd say PBP are fairly sickened

Beasty

I've deleted a number of posts

Stick to discussing the incident and its aftermath, not wider issues of immigration and race. I put the warning in the OP yesterday, please abide by it

Mwengwe

titan18 wrote: »

Sure, I can see the logic on that but if the lad had murdered 14 of the guards and the remaining one killed him, the same crowd protesting now would still be protesting

Don't be so utterly daft. Or actually...do, because you're showing yourself up for who you really are.

Mad_maxx

Calhoun wrote: »

The child protection group on facebook put out a statement tonight on it, those trying to turn it into a race issue are definitely not winning hearts and minds i think they might have over played their hand.

Also for those who are putting down Brid Smith this is par for the course for the likes of people before profit and other champagne socialists, its there area of politics. Its kinda why they aren't very popular but i don't get being overly outraged as this is what they do.

Brid Smith is a lot of things , but a champagne socialist she isnt

shes the real Red deal

Mules

I think the reason a lot of people think the guard's response was excessive is because most of us aren't trained as a gard or experienced with guns. Most people only see guns used on tv. They give warning shots and shoot in the leg and people think it should be the same in real life.

With social media, the problem is lots of people who don't know any better are making assumptions and those are being spread throughout their social group.

Green Peter

Sir Oxman wrote: »

On the other side of the very close circle of racism, a ton of racist white, black, Asian people have been busy posting lie upon lie on every platform available depicting utter non-contextual comparisons to other successful disarming of criminal scumbags as proof that our entire nation is racist.
The racists from the 'exterme far right' side are very closely aligned with racists from the 'extreme modern left' and together they are plentiful.
Some even have the weight of lawmakers behind them.

I guess they won't be happy until the gardai kill a white man in similar circumstances. Problem is most people black or white come round to persuasion, pepper spray, asps and tazors. It might be hard to find to many similar to George.

AngeloArgue

givyjoe wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting the guards should have let the guy go back into the house?!

No. And I don't envy the Gardaí that have to make that split second decision in a highly dangerous and evolving situation.

But I think this is the crux of the matter. Was it reasonable and proportionate response to the risk to others as it presented at the time? And that is a question that many protestors do not believe was so.

I believe this is not as simple a case as many commentators are presenting as such.

AngeloArgue

AngeloArgue wrote: »

No. And I don't envy the Gardaí that have to make that split second decision in a highly dangerous and evolving situation.

But I think this is the crux of the matter. Was it reasonable and proportionate response to the risk to others as it presented at the time? And that is a question that many protestors do not believe was so.

I believe this is not as simple a case as many commentators are presenting as such.

That is why there is an independent organisation currently investigating.

Protesters can believe whatever they want but until the report is available, they have no idea.

Mules

AngeloArgue wrote: »

No. And I don't envy the Gardaí that have to make that split second decision in a highly dangerous and evolving situation.

But I think this is the crux of the matter. Was it reasonable and proportionate response to the risk to others as it presented at the time? And that is a question that many protestors do not believe was so.

I believe this is not as simple a case as many commentators are presenting as such.

But we aren't trained as police. Those of us who aren't can only give our personal opinions. Our opinions are uneducated. The gards are trained to make these decisions. Luckily we have gsoc who will make a judgement based on the facts.

titan18

Mwengwe wrote: »

Don't be so utterly daft. Or actually...do, because you're showing yourself up for who you really are.

Not being daft. I can guarantee no matter the circumstances people like Ebun Joseph, Lucy Michael would be criticising the killing on twitter no matter what the guy did. There's a lot from what I've seen who are against any guard killings and I've seen plenty of posts saying there's no death sentence in Ireland so it shouldn't happen.

Strumms

AngeloArgue wrote: »

Yes, I can see that. But then was that risk of harm "imminent" or "Probable"?
Many would question the use of lethal force to stop a probable risk to someone else.

If somebody had a knife, then the probable force is probably or likely to or has the potential to be lethal. He’d already attacked somebody with the knife.

I’ve been quite critical of the Gardai here on boards, but from what we know of what happened here.. the Gardai / Garda did a fantastic job ensuring that no further innocent people were injured or worse.

He seriously needed stopping... if he managed to access the residential property, close and lock the door..there was potential for carnage.

Spanish Eyes

Re Jack Chambers, I have nothing against him.

He stood back and waited to see how the wind was blowing, and is looking after his non Igbo constituents now at the end of the day.

listermint

Strumms wrote: »

If somebody had a knife, then the probable force is probably or likely to or has the potential to be lethal. He’d already attacked somebody with the knife.

I’ve been quite critical of the Gardai here on boards, but from what we know of what happened here.. the Gardai / Garda did a fantastic job ensuring that no further innocent people were injured or worse.

He seriously needed stopping... if he managed to access the residential property, close and lock the door..there was potential for carnage.

There's been enough mental health murders in Ireland in family homes the past number of years. Horrific things happening.

Last thing is needed is another one.

AngeloArgue

Strumms wrote: »

If somebody had a knife, then the probable force is probably or likely to or has the potential to be lethal. He’d already attacked somebody with the knife.

I’ve been quite critical of the Gardai here on boards, but from what we know of what happened here.. the Gardai / Garda did a fantastic job ensuring that no further innocent people were injured or worse.

He seriously needed stopping... if he managed to access the residential property, close and lock the door..there was potential for carnage.

Yep.

I'm just giving an alternative perspective.

At the end of the day I think this whole incident will boil down to whether it was justified to use lethal force to prevent him entering a residential property to prevent harm to others

Spanish Eyes

AngeloArgue wrote: »

Yep.

I'm just giving an alternative perspective.

At the end of the day I think this whole incident will boil down to whether it was justified to use lethal force to prevent him entering a residential property to prevent harm to others

I think it will all be forgotten about next week TBH.

The focus should now be on the law abiders in that area and support them against the mob.

Strumms

listermint wrote: »

There's been enough mental health murders in Ireland in family homes the past number of years. Horrific things happening.

Last thing is needed is another one.

Yep. Problem is though, the ‘ fashion ‘ now seems to be that people with mental health issues should almost be allowed to get away with murder.... there is always a line of excuses for them. We need to quit that shtick and hold people accountable... I think those outraged need to think, how would they feel if they had a family member in a house, who had just stabbed somebody with a knife, for no other reason then he wanted to, and was trying to access the house with said weapon...could be kids, vulnerable people there.

AngeloArgue

Strumms wrote: »

If somebody had a knife, then the probable force is probably or likely to or has the potential to be lethal. He’d already attacked somebody with the knife.

I’ve been quite critical of the Gardai here on boards, but from what we know of what happened here.. the Gardai / Garda did a fantastic job ensuring that no further innocent people were injured or worse.

He seriously needed stopping... if he managed to access the residential property, close and lock the door..there was potential for carnage.

I should correct one of your assertations though. I think it is established that he did not actually attack anyone with the knife in the shopping centre. It has being alleged that he did assault but not using the knife, its reported that he threatened with the knife.

kravmaga

Mules wrote: »

But we aren't trained as police. Those of us who aren't can only give our personal opinions. Our opinions are uneducated. The gards are trained to make these decisions. Luckily we have gsoc who will make a judgement based on the facts.

Very good point and true. However GSOC report may not be made public as there is no court case pending on this incident.

Page 6 of Todays Irish Times proves a very interesting read, tasers were deployed twice but did not work as a non lethal option.

See article:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/george-nkencho-shooting-inquiry-will-look-at-graduated-use-of-force-1.4448355

Strumms

kravmaga wrote: »

Very good point and true. However GSOC report may not be made public as there is no court case pending on this incident.

Page 6 of Todays Irish Times proves a very interesting read, tasers were deployed on the deceased but did not work as a non lethal option.

See article:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/george-nkencho-shooting-inquiry-will-look-at-graduated-use-of-force-1.4448355

So in other words, safe, non lethal methods of stopping him were unsuccessful, asking him not to enter the premises was unsuccessful, telling him to drop the deadly weapon he’d already used was not successful... what more could the Gardai do ?

CtevenSrowder

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Re Jack Chambers, I have nothing against him.

He stood back and waited to see how the wind was blowing, and is looking after his non Igbo constituents now at the end of the day.

This post sums up why being a politician must be a hugely frustrating job. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Samsonsmasher

AngeloArgue wrote: »

Yep.

I'm just giving an alternative perspective.

At the end of the day I think this whole incident will boil down to whether it was justified to use lethal force to prevent him entering a residential property to prevent harm to others

No it won't.
The video of the shooting clearly shows him lashing out with a long bladed weapon.
The lives of the Gardaí were in immediate danger and at least one of the Gardaí opened fire to protect himself and others and the public from danger.
It took 5 shots to take him down because after being hit he continued to lash out with the weapon and the Garda or Gardaí firing continued to do so until he was no longer a threat.
That is obvious to any sensible person.
It is amazing that commentators on this thread refuse to accept this.
It couldn't be more crystal clear.
The majority on this thread while horrified at the loss of a life accept that the Gardaí had no option but to use lethal force.

kravmaga

AngeloArgue wrote: »

I should correct one of your assertations though. I think it is established that he did not actually attack anyone with the knife in the shopping centre. It has being alleged that he did assault but not using the knife, its reported that he threatened with the knife.

We don't know that & you don't know that either. Your just making assumptions without facts.

Lets wait for the official investigation before we start making up assumptions or jumping to conclusions.

Im sure the CCTV and witness statements will be seized and gathered into evidence.

Im sure the victim from the Eurospar will give his statement on how he was assaulted and how he received his many serious injuries.

The suspect who was shot dead was known to the Gardai and had many previous convictions, it was not his 1st Rodeo.