George Nkencho shooting *Mod warning Added to OP*

Kraftwerk

banie01 wrote: »

He isn't tho, one doesn't become a "criminal" until they have faced a court and been convicted.

Now don't take that to mean I feel the Gardaí are in the wrong, or that the shooting was unjustified because I don't.

The simple legal fact is however, one is innocent until proven guilty.
The death of Mr Nkencho, means that he won't face a court and as such won't ever be found criminally liable.

That just means he's not going to be a convicted criminal. He still committed a crime.

Mimon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Question I have is why shoot 5 times, hitting him 3 times? Are they really that poorly trained they are unable to shoot him in a shoulder once and see the reaction?

Thing I am most concerned about is that 12 gardai were unable to disarm him. Like I see tons of posts here "I support Gardai" but arent they actually trained for situations like this? If they are - they've failed. I know they've been mad busy asking motorists where they are going at checkpoints this year etc. but have they lost the ability to execute the very thing they are mandated to - to keep every citizen safe?

Have a look at this video Ginger and see the reality of police having to deal with someone wielding a knife.

Guy was shot several times and was still going, only there was two cops he would have killed the first one in the end.

https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVAM8DDCV

Patrick2010

According to todays Sunday Times members of his family had protection orders against him and he did not live at the family home but had various addresses in England and Ireland Wondering how he financed this lifestyle?

nullzero

The Gardai should have a time machine and use it go ensure all knife wielding loonies get the correct care required from social workers to ensure these incidents never happen.

Ginger n Lemon

PokeHerKing wrote: »

I saw footage of Australian police non fatally disarming a jihadist lunatic with a knife in Sydney a while back. Think it was Sydney. A citizen even helped out by ramming the guy with a trolley.

It was hailed as the way to police etc and held up as an example against the US. Personally I think the cops put themselves and the public in danger, they should have shot him. He's the attacker. If I was related to the cops I'd have been PO with them for potentially making me bury my brother/father/son etc.

There's a right and a wrong way to do it imo. 9/10 the US are the wrong way, they're essentially murdering people mostly black but they do kill whites as well.

I also think the Australians were wrong. That would have been a lawful killing protecting society. Which is their job.

Their job is not to disarm lunatics, its to protect society.

Good post.

Only note on that in bold - lunatic is part of the society.

If only way to disarm lunatics now is to shoot at them 5 times and hope for the best then you know, we may get few more incidents like this over coming months as tons more of people are suffering with extreme mental health issues (hopefully not though).

wandererz

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Question I have is why shoot 5 times, hitting him 3 times? Are they really that poorly trained they are unable to shoot him in a shoulder once and see the reaction?

Thing I am most concerned about is that 12 gardai were unable to disarm him. Like I see tons of posts here "I support Gardai" but arent they actually trained for situations like this? If they are - they've failed. I know they've been mad busy asking motorists where they are going at checkpoints this year etc. but have they lost the ability to execute the very thing they are mandated to - to keep every citizen safe?

When we are done with level 5 lockdown I would urge you to book a session at a firing range / gun club and learn a thing or two.

You will meet very nice people, extremely experienced and some who are current or ex police or military.
You will also meet world class shooters.

amacca

Tea drinker wrote: »

The Gardai have not said this? The only info is unofficial rumour circulating on media sites like independent.ie
Correct me if I'm wrong but nothing has been ruled in or out by Gardai officially

They have however released a factual account of the ma8n sequence of events on the day and based on that alone it appears Mr Nchenko left them no option with his actions.

Donald Trump

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Look I get that the support for Gardai in this thread is overwhelming.

What I dont get is why 12 + unarmed gardai are unable to deal with someone with a knife.

You need to have a standard for your police force.

If someone with a knife gets shot 10 times tomorrow, will you all still be posting "what would you do rambo?" "yeah thats legit" "Solid"




PS I have no opinion on this. But I am very concerned at how individual with a knife been allowed to roam free from Spar all the way to his housing estate, potentially putting many more people lives at risk. If anything this episode shows that unarmed Gardai are not much use?

They have a graduated escalation process. There were videos of them following slowly at close distance. I'd imagine that if he had come close to others on his way they they would have intervened.



They were apparently giving him the maximum possible chances to make the right decision.

Dyr

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

What I dont get is why 12 + unarmed gardai are unable to deal with someone with a knife.

You make this sound like your inability to "get" this is anyones problem but your own.

alias no.9

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Look I get that the support for Gardai in this thread is overwhelming.

What I dont get is why 12 + unarmed gardai are unable to deal with someone with a knife.

You need to have a standard for your police force.

If someone with a knife gets shot 10 times tomorrow, will you all still be posting "what would you do rambo?" "yeah thats legit" "Solid"




PS I have no opinion on this. But I am very concerned at how individual with a knife been allowed to roam free from Spar all the way to his housing estate, potentially putting many more people lives at risk. If anything this episode shows that unarmed Gardai are not much use?

They did deal with him, unfortunately that required lethal force because he was a danger to the Gardai and the public.

deaddonkey15

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Look I get that the support for Gardai in this thread is overwhelming.

What I dont get is why 12 + unarmed gardai are unable to deal with someone with a knife.

You need to have a standard for your police force.

If someone with a knife gets shot 10 times tomorrow, will you all still be posting "what would you do rambo?" "yeah thats legit" "Solid"

PS I have no opinion on this. But I am very concerned at how individual with a knife been allowed to roam free from Spar all the way to his housing estate, potentially putting many more people lives at risk. If anything this episode shows that unarmed Gardai are not much use?

12+ Gardaí, so who is the first one in? Your father or brother? What harm if one of them gets a knife buried in their throat, isn’t there 11+ still alive to disarm and arrest him?

Ginger n Lemon

Donald Trump wrote: »

They have a graduated escalation process. There were videos of them following slowly at close distance. I'd imagine that if he had come close to others on his way they they would have intervened.



They were apparently giving him the maximum possible chances to make the right decision.

But if he injured or god forbid killed someone else with a knife on the way to his housing estate, would that not be a big disaster? Because that is essentially what he couldve done, but thankfully didnt.

banie01

Kraftwerk wrote: »

That just means he's not going to be a convicted criminal. He still committed a crime.

No, it really doesn't.
Particularly as he won't be presenting a defence.
Yes it's semantics, but it's how the legal process works.
He may well have commited a harmful and dangerous act but without his being able to plead a defence and have it weighed in court.
He can't be "criminal' lots of people have commited overtly criminal acts and being acquired despite a weight of evidence.

It's an important principle of law and of our society that one is innocent until proven guilty.
That doesn't just mean having a weight of evidenc, it also means invalidation of any defence or mitigation the accused presents.

Lillyfae

Patrick2010 wrote: »

According to todays Sunday Times members of his family had protection orders against him and he did not live at the family home but had various addresses in England and Ireland Wondering how he financed this lifestyle?

Can you post the article? I’d love a read but it’s behind a paywall.

Gothic Insanity

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Look I get that the support for Gardai in this thread is overwhelming.

What I dont get is why 12 + unarmed gardai are unable to deal with someone with a knife.

You need to have a standard for your police force.

If someone with a knife gets shot 10 times tomorrow, will you all still be posting "what would you do rambo?" "yeah thats legit" "Solid"




PS I have no opinion on this. But I am very concerned at how individual with a knife been allowed to roam free from Spar all the way to his housing estate, potentially putting many more people lives at risk. If anything this episode shows that unarmed Gardai are not much use?

I've worked in mental health services. When someone like George is presenting with behaviour such as this, it can hospitalise staff seriously and that's without a knife.

In the industry its not uncommon depending on the more severe support needs scale to have a staff ratio of 4 to 1 or even 7 to 1. This is also to prevent the person hurting themselves or their peers. Sometimes you need numbers to keep everybody safe.

Signore Fancy Pants

So the perpetrator had no convictions, glad that has been cleared up, there no room for wild misinformation with this situation. However he was apparently known to AGS, I wont speculate as to why.

In my opinion if there was a genuine mental health issue involved, it still does not trump the AGS reponse. They were responding to the perpetrators physical actions and intent. You dont step back and offer cuddles and a colouring book when someone lunges with a weapon.

This will be controvetsial but my opinion really stems from the perpetrators families' apparent lack of intervention in the situation. I could be very wrong here but I havent seen anything to say they tried to help. If they were so concerned with mental health issues being a primary factor to his actions, they should have stopped recording from inside the house and intervened.

I dont care how that sounds to anyone here, its not ok to sit back and observe while armed AGS members confront an alleged mentally ill family member. Its even worse if it there were just unarmed AGS outside the house first, that should have been a better time for family to de-escalate.

After the deployment of less lethal force measures, why was there still no intervention? Im sure someone will counter with something like "its not the families responsibility" - eh, yeah it is. Maybe someone here will also say "you cant intervene because the cops wont want you in the situation" - sure...but even if you were to de-escalate the situation?

The perpetrator is now dead, mental health is not an excuse, especially if there were no apparent attempts by the family to help the situation. Is that laying some blame on the family for the outcome if the situation? Youre damn right it is.

Yet its "all the Guards fault".

rockatansky

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Question I have is why shoot 5 times, hitting him 3 times? Are they really that poorly trained they are unable to shoot him in a shoulder once and see the reaction?

Thing I am most concerned about is that 12 gardai were unable to disarm him. Like I see tons of posts here "I support Gardai" but arent they actually trained for situations like this? If they are - they've failed. I know they've been mad busy asking motorists where they are going at checkpoints this year etc. but have they lost the ability to execute the very thing they are mandated to - to keep every citizen safe?

You do not shoot somebody in the shoulder, this isn't Hollywood.
Shots would be fired when the person with the weapon, in this case a knife, is morning towards a member of AGS and is posing a real threat.

They are moving so fast, in a split second, there is no time to take aim for a specfic limb and shoot. You will absolutely miss.

Armed Gardai are fully trained for this exact situation and that training, just like all training for all other Police forces around the world, tells you aim for the centre mass of the body and fire until the threat is stopped.

Ginger n Lemon

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

12+ Gardaí, so who is the first one in? Your father or brother? What harm if one of them gets a knife buried in their throat, isn’t there 11+ still alive to disarm and arrest him?

Please lets not go there.... Gardai are there to protect people. its a dangerous job from the start.

What if the lunatic with a knife killed your brother or father on the way to his housing estate as 12 gardai were "following" him around trying to "calm him down"?

hynesie08

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

But if he injured or god forbid killed someone else with a knife on the way to his housing estate, would that not be a big disaster? Because that is essentially what he couldve done, but thankfully didnt.

That's why there were 10 gardai (has this been confirmed anywhere BTW) before the ARU arrived. They basically formed a human shield to protect civilians from the man with the knife. Putting themselves literally in the firing line.

Padre_Pio

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Good post.

Only note on that in bold - lunatic is part of the society.

If only way to disarm lunatics now is to shoot at them 5 times and hope for the best then you know, we may get few more incidents like this over coming months as tons more of people are suffering with extreme mental health issues (hopefully not though).

Read your post again and search for useful input.
I cant find any.

Hyperbolic nonsense.

nullzero

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Please lets not go there.... Gardai are there to protect people. its a dangerous job from the start.

What if the lunatic with a knife killed your brother or father on the way to his housing estate as 12 gardai were "following" him around trying to "calm him down"?

That's why they called the ASU. Do you expect them to appear out of the ether?

Is it your expectation that armed police should be present ready to shoot nutters in the shoulder at any time?

Kidchameleon

banie01 wrote: »

He isn't tho, one doesn't become a "criminal" until they have faced a court and been convicted.

Now don't take that to mean I feel the Gardaí are in the wrong, or that the shooting was unjustified because I don't.

The simple legal fact is however, one is innocent until proven guilty.
The death of Mr Nkencho, means that he won't face a court and as such won't ever be found criminally liable.

I don't care about the semantics of the word "criminal". He was an utter SCUMBAG and there is no argument against that.

PokeHerKing

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Good post.

Only note on that in bold - lunatic is part of the society.

If only way to disarm lunatics now is to shoot at them 5 times and hope for the best then you know, we may get few more incidents like this over coming months as tons more of people are suffering with extreme mental health issues (hopefully not though).

If all non lethal options have failed and said lunatic is posing an immediate danger to the public or gards then yes lethal force is the last and only option.

CrazyFather1

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Look I get that the support for Gardai in this thread is overwhelming.

What I dont get is why 12 + unarmed gardai are unable to deal with someone with a knife.

You need to have a standard for your police force.

If someone with a knife gets shot 10 times tomorrow, will you all still be posting "what would you do rambo?" "yeah thats legit" "Solid"




PS I have no opinion on this. But I am very concerned at how individual with a knife been allowed to roam free from Spar all the way to his housing estate, potentially putting many more people lives at risk. If anything this episode shows that unarmed Gardai are not much use?

Do you expect the Garda to draw straws on which one is willing to get chopped in the head while the rest tackle him down?

Collie D

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

But if he injured or god forbid killed someone else with a knife on the way to his housing estate, would that not be a big disaster? Because that is essentially what he couldve done, but thankfully didnt.

I get where you’re coming from. The fact that this didn’t happen and he made his way back to the house kind of quashes any argument that the Guards were heavy handed in their response.

While it can’t be stated as fact I think if the situation had escalated or civilians were at risk the response would have been instant.

He was given time to calm down and drop the knife. Only when he became a threat to others was there a stronger reaction.

Hamachi

Kivaro wrote: »

Isn't it curious, that once again the Irish public need to rely on an English newspaper to order to get unbiased reporting on a news story that features Africans in Ireland? It was also The Times that reported the news about the Social Democrats candidate who lied on her asylum application. Why are we not seeing similar unbiased reports from our main stream media?


So it had nothing to do with his race; irrespective of what progressives like Hazel Chu and Lynn Ruane would like to believe. Hope that these fine people are remembered when they try to run for "elected" office.

This also holds true in the case of Pamela Izevbekhai, the highest profile asylum seeker ever deported from Ireland. She cost the Irish tax payer > 1 million euros, fighting her deportation order on the grounds that her child had died as a result of FGM in Nigeria.

Her narrative was bought hook, line, and sinker by the Irish Times, RTÉ et al. Philip Boucher Hayes particularly championed her cause. The Sunday Times was the only outlet that exercised some rigorous investigative journalism. They traced her medical history in Nigeria and quickly discovered that no such child had ever been borne by Izevbekhai. Thankfully, she was deported in 2009.

The Irish media cannot be trusted when it comes to reporting on issues that may reflect badly on ethnic minorities. They have gone so far down an ideological rabbit hole that Alice in Wonderland would not be able to locate them with a map and compass.

For me, this current event has had two positive outcomes:

1. A violent, disturbed, aggressive man has been removed from society.

2. The low caliber of some public representatives in Ireland has been laid bare to a far wider audience. Specifically, Chu, Ruane, Smith, Coppinger, Murphy, and O’Gorman.

CrazyFather1

I remember seeing the police man in the uK on TV recently, he was hit in head with a large knife. He has mental problems now and will never have the same life again. Is that what people are asking that a Garda should do? risk their own life and long term life because of some "person" who wants to hack them with a knife?

alias no.9

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Please lets not go there.... Gardai are there to protect people. its a dangerous job from the start.

What if the lunatic with a knife killed your brother or father on the way to his housing estate as 12 gardai were "following" him around trying to "calm him down"?

They would have intervened sooner, it's not that difficult to understand unless a person is willfully trying not to understand.

wandererz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

PS I have no opinion on this. But I am very concerned at how individual with a knife been allowed to roam free from Spar all the way to his housing estate, potentially putting many more people lives at risk. If anything this episode shows that unarmed Gardai are not much use?

He was followed, have a look at this :

https://youtu.be/HqyeAL3wNx0

He wasn't allowed to roam free but was under observation.

bush

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

This will be controvetsial but my opinion really stems from the perpetrators families' apparent lack of intervention in the situation. I could be very wrong here but I havent seen anything to say they tried to help. If they were so concerned with mental health issues being a primary factor to his actions, they should have stopped recording from inside the house and intervened.

Probably worried about their own saftey