George Nkencho shooting *Mod warning Added to OP*

Gothic Insanity

ToddDameron wrote: »

Indeed. I've been called far right so many times that I've lost count. My views are not right wing, I'm left leaning, and have voted as such all my life in politics and referendums. But when you come into a thread looking to find the truth of a situation, and don't immediately fall into line with the un-questioning outrage, you are written off as racist etc or whatever damaging label that will discredit you.

Neither side is interested in the truth anymore, just manipulating the narrative to do as much damage as possible to the other side.

Oh aye, Im racist for breathing apparently and having an opinion, which is rich since people don't know your race online or ethnicity to actually fully comment on that and also know who you are as a person.

It's a label tossed around which actually demeans real acts of racism. I've been punched in the back off a building for defending a friend from a racist attack and teased for having a "black" father, though it wasn't black he was called.... But sure I'm obviously racist for leaning a bit in between and slightly right

weldoninhio

paddy19 wrote: »

The problem is not with poor individual Guard who was put in this terrible position.

The problem is that specialistic unit which was trained to deal violently deranged persons was not available on the day.

"Specialist non-lethal tactic not available to Gardaí on day of Nkencho shooting"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/specialist-non-lethal-tactic-not-available-to-garda%C3%AD-on-day-of-nkencho-shooting-1.4453496

"According to Garda sources, another option exists to deal with knife-wielding suspects which can be employed before lethal force is used."

However, only the Garda Public Order Unit is equipped and trained in the tactic. A full-time public order unit has been rostered on duty in Dublin for much of the Covid-19 pandemic and over the Christmas period. But no unit was on duty in the Dublin Metropolitan Region on the day of the shooting.

“Outdoor VDP [violently deranged persons] tactics” involves six officers in full riot gear and carrying shields forming into three groups of two and descending on a suspect in a pincer movement.

We will have this problem in the future and ending up with a death is no answer for the unfortunate person, the individual Guard or society.

We’ve no idea if that would have worked on the day. One set of 2 would have had to have gotten themselves in between George and the house. I don’t see how they would have achieved that.

JJayoo

Have been watching the Bourne films recently....Jason Bourne wouldn't have shot this man...everyone is racist

Strumms

Effects wrote: »

You don't know that though.



Yeah, they are trained how to do that.

Really ? Their own policy directive says otherwise.

givyjoe

Effects wrote: »

Look, all this could have been avoided if the Gardai drove around and blocked him in on the far side, rather than both cars driving behind him.

Is that a joke?! Please tell me it is.. He definitely couldn't just walk around them..

paddy19

Strumms wrote: »

So are the people rostering Gardai to blame, or again, is the individual, the violent individual with a deadly weapon who had assaulted somebody with it and was attempting to maim or worse, many more people including Gardai to blame, for him loosing his life ?

If a public order unit had already been tasked to another call or in fact a deal of distance away from the incident what then ? They wait for this maniac to go about attempting to attack more people with a deadly weapon ? Or the Gardai on hand disable the threat, DO disable it which was a potentially lethal one, to the public and themselves.

If some fuçking maniac comes outside my premises now, screaming blue murder, trying to break in, he is armed with a knife... I call the emergency services...

“Ok we’ll send somebody around, but just so you know, the Public Order Unit is about an hour from being able to get to you, too dangerous for the regular lads to intervene, even if he tries to stab you, the woke cûnts have ensured that the only thing as police we can do is talk to him”.

I don't think we should be looking for anyone to blame here.
There are no winners when somebody ends up dead. Not the Gardai, not society and obviously not the person who dies.
Thankfully in Ireland we have a lot less deaths from these type of situations.
A lot of the credit for that goes to the Gardai who manage very difficult issues on a daily basis.

This problem will arise again and a Gardai will be left suffering PTSD.

We know there are better ways of managing this type of problem.

I'm just advocating more Gardai be trained to deal with this type of issue.

Obviously it won't always work, but isn't better to try to control and descalate than end up with somebody dead.

frozenfrozen

Until then drop the knife when there's a gun pointing at you

Strumms

paddy19 wrote: »

Obviously it won't always work, but isn't better to try to control and descalate than end up with somebody dead.

A man who has attacked somebody with a deadly weapon, an innocent bystander and subsequently tried to do the same to the Gardai, then goes to enter a residential premises.... there in my view is no potential for de-escalation without seriously increasing risk to wellbeing and life of whomever is inside... he closes and locks that door...he is probably stabbing whomever is inside.

paddy19

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Until then drop the knife when there's a gun pointing at you

That assumes that we are dealing with someone who behaves rationally.

Are we going to shot all the people who are threat and behave irrationally?

We going to end up with a lot of bodies and a lot of traumatised Gardai.

Strumms

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Until then drop the knife when there's a gun pointing at you

Exactly, show you are not a threat to anybody and have a willingness to engage with the Gardai....

Annasopra

Strumms wrote: »

It was a criminal, with a deadly weapon, who had used said deadly weapon against a civilian, and attempted to use said deadly weapon against the Gardai.

Public order Units are trained to use riot control tactics to control, disperse, and arrest civilians that are involved in a riot, demonstration, or protest.

NOT trained or tasked to neutralize or apprehend dangerous, violent and armed maniacs. This is NOT their job. That IS the job of the ERU / ARU. They did that job without further injury or death to any innocent party.

Did he? I havent seen any news reports anywhere about the knife being used against a civilian?

Strumms

paddy19 wrote: »

That assumes that we are dealing with someone who behaves rationally.

Are we going to shot all the people who are threat and behave irrationally?

We going to end up with a lot of bodies and a lot of traumatised Gardai.

We do shoot them if they are posing a real and serious threat to the safety, wellbeing and life of the public and Gardai... this guy was, the threat was neutralized. No further damage or danger to citizens.

AngeloArgue

paddy19 wrote: »

I don't think we should be looking for anyone to blame here.
There are no winners when somebody ends up dead. Not the Gardai, not society and obviously not the person who dies.
Thankfully in Ireland we have a lot less deaths from these type of situations.
A lot of the credit for that goes to the Gardai who manage very difficult issues on a daily basis.

This problem will arise again and a Gardai will be left suffering PTSD.

We know there are better ways of managing this type of problem.

I'm just advocating more Gardai be trained to deal with this type of issue.

Obviously it won't always work, but isn't better to try to control and descalate than end up with somebody dead.

We know there are better ways of managing this type of problem.

That's highly dependent on the situation.

There does seem to be a tactic of using a large team of trained police in protective armour and large shields to surround the armed aggressor in a pincer movement, immobilising and the disarming them. It's time and resource dependent and may not work with a aggressor who is not cornered.

isn't better to try to control and descalate than end up with somebody dead

I'm sure you're not suggesting that the Police involved in this incident did not make many efforts to control and deescalate this incident without the loss of life while putting their own wellbeing on the line

Kraftwerk

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Did he? I havent seen any news reports anywhere about the knife being used against a civilian?

You may want to read a few of the reports so. The Gardai issued a statement saying he had used the knife to threaten members of the public.

“Uniform, unarmed gardaí responded to the scene and observed a male in possession of a knife. The male continued to threaten members of the public and unarmed gardaí with the knife.”

paddy19

Strumms wrote: »

A man who has attacked somebody with a deadly weapon, an innocent bystander and subsequently tried to do the same to the Gardai, then goes to enter a residential premises.... there in my view is no potential for de-escalation without seriously increasing risk to wellbeing and life of whomever is inside... he closes and locks that door...he is probably stabbing whomever is inside.

I don't want to start speculating about this situation. Who knows what could or should have been done.

With this sort of situation the Gardai have a descalation process which can be employed if more Gardai had been trained in it.

Contain, control, descalate.

It's no panacea, it obviously does not work all the time.

This is not a blame game. This is just a proposal to try to have more Gardia trained so that we end up with fewer bodies and less traumatised Gardai.

AngeloArgue

Strumms wrote: »

A man who has attacked somebody with a deadly weapon, an innocent bystander and subsequently tried to do the same to the Gardai, then goes to enter a residential premises.... there in my view is no potential for de-escalation without seriously increasing risk to wellbeing and life of whomever is inside... he closes and locks that door...he is probably stabbing whomever is inside.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Are you saying that Nkencho stabbed someone?

Strumms

paddy19 wrote: »

I don't want to start speculating about this situation. Who knows what could or should have been done.

With this sort of situation the Gardai have a descalation process which can be employed if more Gardai had been trained in it.

Contain, control, descalate.

It's no panacea, it obviously does not work all the time.

This is not a blame game. This is just a proposal to try to have more Gardia trained so that we end up with fewer bodies and less traumatised Gardai.

How can you have time to de-escalate a violent and psychotic criminal in possession of a knife about to enter a house full of people ?

The supporters of this criminal are advocating a blame game, they blame the Gardai. Me, I thank the Gardai. If somebody tried to enter my place with a knife, regardless of their mental or emotional state, I’d like to think they’d do the same..shoot.

If somebody does that here and no Gardai , despite knowing fûck all about baseball, I have a handy bat under my bed that my cousin from NY gave me 20 years ago, it happens to be autographed, by whom I have no clue, it’s ‘sports memorabilia’, gray matter memorabilia if needed and my life and wellbeing is in danger.

rustynutz

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Did he? I havent seen any news reports anywhere about the knife being used against a civilian?

Did he not assault a shop worker just before this?

I'm not a massive fan of the Gaurds but I think in this case they acted appropriately.

They first used pepper spray, that didn't work, they then tried taser, again, no good. The suspect was acting irrationally and lunging at gaurds with a knife, at this stage the gaurds priorities are protect the public and themselves, the suspects needs come after that.

A lot has been made of the suspects mental health issues, I dont know why this is used as a defense, it doesn't make him any less deadly with a weapon, less likely to hurt or kill someone, if he stabs a member of the Gaurds or public, they are no less dead because the attacker had mental health issues?

As for those saying they should have disarmed him, or shot him in the leg, this is just ridiculous. If you try and disarm someone with a knife, you are getting slashed at best, especially someone who hasn't dropped the knife after pepper spray and taser. Try shoot a moving target in the leg, where does that round go when you miss? Into an innocent bystander, I'd love to see the uproar on social media then. Why would an armed guard put themselves at risk trying to disarm a suspect with a knife?

There isn't a country in the world where you dont get shot when lunging an armed police officer.

The victim here is the Gaurd who was forced to take someone life and now has to live with that.

Meeoow

His main go fund me account seems to be gone now. Does anyone know how much it ended up with? Do go fund me take a percentage of that total?

Annasopra

rustynutz wrote: »

Did he not assault a shop worker just before this?

I have seen reports that a shop worker was assaulted and fake reports of the shop worker being stabbed so thats why I was trying to clarify what Strumms was getting at.

paddy19

Strumms wrote: »

We do shoot them if they are posing a real and serious threat to the safety, wellbeing and life of the public and Gardai... this guy was, the threat was neutralized. No further damage or danger to citizens.

The threat was not neutralized. The person was killed.

I don't anyone would think ending up with a dead person is the optimum solution.
This is not to criticise the guards who used everything that was a available to contain, control and desecrate what was obviously a very dangerous situation.

All I'm saying is that it would be great we could spend time and resources training more Gardai in these techniques so we end up with fewer bodies and fewer traumatised Gardai.

AngeloArgue

paddy19 wrote: »

I don't want to start speculating about this situation. Who knows what could or should have been done.

With this sort of situation the Gardai have a descalation process which can be employed if more Gardai had been trained in it.

Contain, control, deescalate.

It's no panacea, it obviously does not work all the time.

This is not a blame game. This is just a proposal to try to have more Gardia trained so that we end up with fewer bodies and less traumatised Gardai.

Contain, control, de-escalate

Police encountered the suspect at a shopping area. The suspect made threats with a knife. They attempted verbal de-escalation, pleading with the suspect to drop the weapon and surrender. The suspect started to walk on foot and the police followed at a distance to keep themselves and members of the public safe. This is a rolling containment, keeping people away from a moving suspect who is posing a threat.

The armed suspect starts to near a residential area. The safety of the people in this area comes into play. Police are continuing to try verbal de-ecsalation and rolling containment and now with the very real threat to the residents deploy non-lethal force (tazer) and pepper spray. This fails to stop the suspect from advancing towards the residential house.

The ARU come into play as in whether to allow the suspect to gain entry into an occupied house

newmember2

paddy19 wrote: »

...All I'm saying is that it would be great we could spend time and resources training more Gardai in these techniques so we end up with fewer bodies and fewer traumatised Gardai.

A couple of attack dogs would be a lot cheaper and as effective in disarming a disturbed individual.

Strumms

paddy19 wrote: »

The threat was not neutralized. The person was killed.

I don't anyone would think ending up with a dead person is the optimum solution.
This is not to criticise the guards who used everything that was a available to contain, control and desecrate what was obviously a very dangerous situation.

All I'm saying is that it would be great we could spend time and resources training more Gardai in these techniques so we end up with fewer bodies and fewer traumatised Gardai.

It was neutralized : neutralized...make (something or somebody) ineffective by applying an opposite force or effect.

It’s not optimum. I think we’d all like to see for the benefit of everyone George still alive. From what we know, he’s not because of his choices, bad choices.

Chrisam

tayto lover wrote: »

Another newbie who joined to push a lefty agenda.
So predictable.
Wear you mask when attending these protests.

Sorry pet, I vote FG. I also live 5 mins from where this happened, so am probably less of a 'newbie' than you.

AngeloArgue

newmember? wrote: »

A couple of attack dogs would be a lot cheaper and as effective in disarming a disturbed individual.

I'm not so sure. I suppose there is a chance that the suspect will surrender or drop the weapon. But it's as likely that he would turn the knife on the dog itself. So you could have a situation were the suspect remains armed and is attacking the police dog

Gatling

paddy19 wrote: »

The threat was not neutralized.

All I'm saying is that it would be great we could spend time and resources training more Gardai in these techniques so we end up with fewer bodies and fewer traumatised Gardai.

How many times have the guards have to shoot an armed suspect in the last 50 years , guarantee more guards were killed in that period than killed by a Garda ,

And even though it sounds callous the guards did nutrulise an dangerous armed suspect who had violently assaulted a shop worked and then proceed to attack guards trying to arrest him , while armed with a knife

Gatling

Effects wrote: »

You keep making stuff up, why not just stick to the facts

What are you claiming is made up exactly

Tea drinker

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Did he? I havent seen any news reports anywhere about the knife being used against a civilian?

Prior to the standoff with armed Gardaí, Nkencho was involved in an altercation in a Eurospar supermarket in Hartstown, where he allegedly assaulted a manager who received a broken nose which required him being taken to Connolly Hospital.[5][6] Nkencho then produced a kitchen knife from his pocket and threatened staff and later the Garda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_George_Nkencho

According to the above civilians were threatened with the knife

AngeloArgue

newmember? wrote: »

A couple of attack dogs would be a lot cheaper and as effective in disarming a disturbed individual.

Your post prompted me to search for the use of police dogs in subduing suspects armed with a knife.

I came across this video that ends well for all involved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU5V6oRKfc4

Although the person drops the knife before the dog makes contact. Yes, maybe a K-9 unit could be part of a graduated response. I believe there is Gardaí K-9 units trained to good international standards. Again are these resources available at the time when needed?