George Nkencho shooting *Mod warning Added to OP*

nialler1978

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they can only deal with the behaviour in front of them. They are not psychologists. Expecting them to act on an analysis of why somebody is behaving a certain way is asking too much. If somebody is an immediate threat they have to act there and then. they dont have time to do therapy sessions first.

I'd go a step further and suggest that it is surely irrelevant to a Garda if somebody has mental health issues or not if they are trying to plunge a knife into them? As in, even if they knew he had mental health issues and he was attacking them with a knife, who cares, what was he supposed to do, pull a chaise longue out and ask george to have a bit of a lie down while they talk about his problems?

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Its had absolutely no proof, it was trotted out as soon as the guy hit the floor , its the default argument of the left to wash over everything.

The irish times journo covering the story said an unnamed garda told him george was mentally ill, thats been the ‘proof’ of it. Even his own family havent been pushing that.

Its as big a lie as the 32 convictions were, the difference is we could prove the convictions were a lie.

The mental health thing will never be proved so peddling it is posting in bad faith and just a way of de-legitimising the real victim (wayne) .

It's mentioned in articles I read that he did seek treatment from his GP for mental health reasons. It doesn't excuse his actions but to say that there is no mental health angle... is a lie.

weldoninhio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's mentioned in articles I read that he did seek treatment from his GP for mental health reasons. It doesn't excuse his actions but to say that there is no mental health angle... is a lie.

Mentioned by who?

Mr.burgess

weldoninhio wrote: »

No one has said it’s a lie as far as I can see. Plenty have said there is zero evidence so far.

What evidence are you expecting ? Doctors cant give out that information on a piece of paper , but as others said mental health is no excuse for swinging a blade at someone

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why is it ridiculous though?

Because I don't give a **** if someone is schizophrenic or bipolar, if they are after assaulting people and are brandishing a knife and are attacking police, they should be shot. Having a mental disorder doesn't mean you should be immune.

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

Mentioned by who?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/george-nkencho-shooting-racial-tensions-in-dublin-s-suburbs-1.4452459

There doesn’t seem to be any dispute that Nkencho was suffering from serious mental health issues in the months beforehand. Gardaí had been called to the house earlier in the year following a violent incident in which he had made family members fear for their safety.

The local GP had visited the house at several points over the year to assist with mental health issues, and the family were waiting on supports from the HSE for Nkencho at the time of the shooting.

It is unknown whether the gardaí at the scene had any knowledge of these issues.

weldoninhio

Mr.burgess wrote: »

What evidence are you expecting ? Doctors cant give out that information on a piece of paper , but as others said mental health is no excuse for swinging a blade at someone

A diagnosis, at least. Nothing stopping his family or doctor from stating he suffered from anxiety, schizophrenia, psychosis. Rather than the obscure “mental health”.

Annasopra

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they can only deal with the behaviour in front of them. They are not psychologists. Expecting them to act on an analysis of why somebody is behaving a certain way is asking too much. If somebody is an immediate threat they have to act there and then. they dont have time to do therapy sessions first.

Hmmm well Mr Justice Barr did highlight in 2006 that it was highly relevant the officers dealing with John Carty had no specific training in dealing with mental illness. He also pointed out that it is highly desirable to do so

All were agreed that when dealing with a subject activated by a manifestation of mental illness it is imperative for those endeavouring to deal with the situation, i.e., scene commanders and negotiators that they should as soon as possible consult with medical experts who are or have been treating the individual and obtain medical advice on how the situation might best be dealt with.

Its covered extensively in Mr Justice Barrs reccomendations that mental illness is of course relevant in siege situations.

The restructuring of the Garda response in siege situations

I recommend that the Minister and the Commissioner, in collaboration with police experts from other comparable jurisdictions, should review the situation which pertained at Abbeylara as found in this Report and the criticism of Garda performance there, including that of expert police witnesses, with a view to devising a revised structure for command and an appropriate scheme for dealing with similar siege situations — particularly where a dangerous gunman is believed to be motivated by mental illness. Such a review should include consideration of and, where perceived to be appropriate, recommendations on the following matters:

i. Where it is decided that a specialist unit of the ERU be engaged to take over tactical command at the scene, which may include also provision of the principal negotiator:

(a) Should the commander of the unit have full responsibility for all tactical and negotiating decisions, having advised the local superintendent of his intentions in that regard, and should he have the minimum rank of inspector?

(b) In such circumstances, should the local district superintendent’s command function be limited to the provision of ancillary services such as food, accommodation and other supplies not provided by the ERU; the appointment of an experienced local officer as intelligence co-ordinator to liaise with the ERU commander; provision of an outer cordon of uniformed gardaı´ and any other additional officers the ERU commander may require, including armed detectives if necessary; the organisation of special services such as that of the Garda Technical Bureau, the Garda Press Office and the provision of police dogs and handlers at the scene; provision of additional trained, experienced negotiators (if not supplied by the ERU) and provision of equipment and non-lethal options which may be necessary if not possessed by the specialist unit?


ii. Should local area superintendents undergo refresher training as scene commanders for one week annually — such training to include the importance of making plans; keeping records; intelligence gathering; liaising with negotiators regarding strategy; ensuring the provision of a sufficient number of experienced negotiators at the scene; the establishment of inner and outer cordons; the maintenance of a strict sterile area between cordons; basic instruction on mental illness and the need for prompt consultation, in depth, with the general practitioner or psychiatrist treating such a person, including the importance of calming the subject and of obtaining, as a matter of urgent priority, medical advice in dealing with the mental and other problems displayed by him or her?

iii. Should ERU officers having the rank of inspector or superintendent have the benefit of similar refresher courses?

iv. Should all garda negotiators have detailed courses of instruction of not less than two weeks’ duration which include particular reference to siege situations generally and also those where the subject is believed to be motivated or affected by mental illness. (Instruction on how to deal with that type of situation should include the desirability of consulting with a psychologist attached to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.) Is it also desirable that negotiators should have the benefit of regular refresher courses?

v. The desirability that the training of garda recruits (and all officers by way of refresher courses) should include basic instruction on mental illness and how a person so afflicted should be dealt with, including the need for urgent consultation with his/her medical advisor and the importance of calming the subject.

vi. What specific training in negotiation strategy and on how to assist the gardaı´, if the subject of a siege is believed to suffer from mental illness, is required for state psychologists?

vii. How many psychologists should be employed by the State in providing the service of expert assistance in siege and other similar situations?

viii. The importance of establishing a formal working arrangement (including periodic training of both sides) between the Garda Sı´ocha´na and state psychologists; no such arrangement having been in existence at the time of Abbeylara or now.

ix. The desirability of devising and adopting a retraining model based on that in Victoria, Australia — Project Beacon. The Tribunal is aware that it has had exceptional success and has been highly acclaimed in other jurisdictions.

x. The desirability of utilising teams of appropriately trained police dogs and handlers for use in siege and other comparable situations if required.


xi. The desirability of equipping ERU units with Taser stun guns.

xii. Further investigation of other non-lethal options.

xiii. The need for providing a sufficient number of appropriately equipped specialist command vehicles for use of the Garda Sı´ocha´na throughout its jurisdiction.

As already stated, I am of opinion that the review of Garda command structures and training, particularly in the context of utilising the ERU in siege and other comparable situations, including those having mental illness as a factor, is a subject which should have urgent attention.

weldoninhio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/george-nkencho-shooting-racial-tensions-in-dublin-s-suburbs-1.4452459

So from the same family who gave us such gems as “35 Gardai” “butter knife” and “he was lying on the ground surrendering when they shot him”. I’ll hold off on taking that as proof.

ohnonotgmail

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Hmmm well Mr Justice Barr did highlight in 2006 that it was highly relevant the officers dealing with John Carty had no specific training in dealing with mental illness. He also pointed out that it is highly desirable to do so



Its covered extensively in Mr Justice Barrs reccomendations that mental illness is of course relevant in siege situations.

this wasn't a siege. they didn't have hours to get background on the person in front of them or bring in experts. they had minutes.

frozenfrozen

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Hmmm well Mr Justice Barr did highlight in 2006 that it was highly relevant the officers dealing with John Carty had no specific training in dealing with mental illness. He also pointed out that it is highly desirable to do so



Its covered extensively in Mr Justice Barrs reccomendations that mental illness is of course relevant in siege situations.

Do you think he was shot because of race or because the gardai aren't trained to deal with people with a mental illness?

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

So from the same family who gave us such gems as “35 Gardai” “butter knife” and “he was lying on the ground surrendering when they shot him”. I’ll hold off on taking that as proof.

Fair enough. Local GP and HSE. Don't believe your lying eyes.

SnuggyBear

What difference does it make if he had mental health problems? It was only going to end one way.

Strumms

ShagNastii wrote: »

There is so much commentary about narratives in this case being hijacked by the “far-right”. Am I the only one that rolls my eyes when people spew about the far right in Ireland or elsewhere.

You have Gemma and her ilk but let’s be honest, proportional to population absolutely nobody supports them (and the crap they pedal). As some have stated look at any rightwing parties performances in any Irish election.

Its like the KKK in America. At times you’d swear they were running states in the USA. Their membership is in the thousands. An absolute tear in the ocean.


I would point out as well unfortunate for Paul Murphy and PBP, our friends in FG, FF, the Gardai, the media are not ring wing fascists. Far from it actually.

Just seems now that if you upset the lunatic fringes of the left, you are now ‘far right’...

If they suggest spending 400 million of our money on a hospital exclusively for asylum seekers , you say, “well, that might not be the best or fairest way to spend taxpayers money..”. They or many of them are practically comparing you to Hitler...

They want college places to be open to asylum seekers, subversion of the CAO system, costing Irish young people education and futures, you disagreed ? Goebbels you’ll be called..

That’s the thing.. they don’t want to debate, engage, disagree, put forward arguments... they attack anybody and everyone not in agreement with their schtick... which is... ‘ fuçk irish people, Irish taxpayers, fûck democracy, fûck the ordinary Joe soap who has payed in a lot but wants a little back, when needed... let’s give most away, because we feel YAY.... no, sorry, fûck off.

BattleCorp

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Hmmm well Mr Justice Barr did highlight in 2006 that it was highly relevant the officers dealing with John Carty had no specific training in dealing with mental illness. He also pointed out that it is highly desirable to do so



Its covered extensively in Mr Justice Barrs reccomendations that mental illness is of course relevant in siege situations.

This wasn't really a seige situation. It would probably have been if George made it inside the house.

ThunbergsAreGo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/george-nkencho-shooting-racial-tensions-in-dublin-s-suburbs-1.4452459

But but.... He wouldn't hurt a fly

givyjoe

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Do you think he was shot because of race or because the gardai aren't trained to deal with people with a mental illness?

Or and this is a doozey.. because he was swinging a large blade at a garda's head.

BattleCorp

givyjoe wrote: »

Or and this is a doozey.. because he was swinging a large blade at a garda's head.

St. George was only trying to comb the Garda's hair with his butterknife, while he was lying face down on the ground surrendering.

frozenfrozen

do ye hear that noise? that's the saloon doors flapping shut because joey is not-fcuking-answering that particular question

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair enough. Local GP and HSE. Don't believe your lying eyes.

But that's only what the family have claimed isn't it

weldoninhio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair enough. Local GP and HSE. Don't believe your lying eyes.

Where is there any quote from a local GP or the HSE??

Eric Cartman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/george-nkencho-shooting-racial-tensions-in-dublin-s-suburbs-1.4452459

Look up the twitter of that journo.. he was retweeting the mental health angle from day 1, the guy has no facts, printing that a ‘garda’ told him is not proof, he’s been peddling the lie since he could

BattleCorp

weldoninhio wrote: »

Where is there any quote from a local GP or the HSE??

There isn't any. Because a GP or the HSE aren't allowed to give out that information.

ohnonotgmail

weldoninhio wrote: »

Where is there any quote from a local GP or the HSE??

there couldn't be. GDPR would prevent them from commenting publicly on his health.

BattleCorp

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Look up the twitter of that journo.. he was retweeting the mental health angle from day 1, the guy has no facts, printing that a ‘garda’ told him is not proof, he’s been peddling the lie since he could

One point here and I'm in no way sticking up for George Nkencho here.

I don't know if George Nkencho was diagnosed as suffering from a mental illness or not.

But lets pretend he wasn't diagnosed with a mental illness. That doesn't mean that he didn't have a mental illness so I think it's incorrect to state that it's a lie to say he had a mental illness.

Just because you don't have proof of something doesn't mean that a lie has been told.

enricoh

frozenfrozen wrote: »

do ye hear that noise? that's the saloon doors flapping shut because joey is not-fcuking-answering that particular question

He waits till it gets dark n then dumps his rubbish down the halting site - he'll be back in a bit!

weldoninhio

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there couldn't be. GDPR would prevent them from commenting publicly on his health.

GDPR doesn’t cover dead people.

JimmyVik

I was talking to someone about this the other day.
He said there was a factcheck story on the journal which said that George had no criminal record.
But it was taken down an hour after it was put up.
Is this true?

Sir Oxman

JimmyVik wrote: »

I was talking to someone about this the other day.
He said there was a factcheck story on the journal which said that George had no criminal record.
But it was taken down an hour after it was put up.
Is this true?

No, it's still there.

Eric Cartman

BattleCorp wrote: »

We aren't on the same wavelength.

You can have a mental illness without it being diagnosed. The same as you can have cancer without being diagnosed. Or high blood pressure, or any other medical condition really. The absence of a diagnosis doesn't mean that you don't have that condition.

The fact that you are fairly sure that the guy 'wasn't all there' adds to the likelihood that he was suffering from a mental illness. I'd be thinking along the lines that he 'wasn't all there' either. Is the fact that we think that proof he had a mental illness, no, absolutely not. I acknowledge that.

So, without proof, is it a lie to say he didn't suffer from a mental illness? I'm going to say no. Because we don't have proof that it's a lie either.

The burden of proof isnt there to disprove the mental illness, look at the timeline of this , the guy was shot in the afternoon and before 4pm we had politicians and twitter users all claiming a man with mental health issues was murdered , people who had no association with the area or family.

If you sit in your armchair and claim somebody is mentally ill from your laptop with no proof that is a lie.

Perpetuating a lie about joe biden having dementia became a banabale offence on this forum because there was no evidence. These grifters are doing it for the same reason, to perpetuate their agenda.

And in the weeks since this incident no amount of super sluths or connected journos have managed to get any confirmation about this at all. At this point regurgitating the point is a lie because its no longer a scramble case of before the dust settles, it has settled and no evidence found for it. Now the good faith thing to do is to just stop referencing mental health when discussing george unless some hard proof to the contrary shows up