George Nkencho shooting *Mod warning Added to OP*

Eric Cartman

BattleCorp wrote: »

We aren't on the same wavelength.

You can have a mental illness without it being diagnosed. The same as you can have cancer without being diagnosed. Or high blood pressure, or any other medical condition really. The absence of a diagnosis doesn't mean that you don't have that condition.

The fact that you are fairly sure that the guy 'wasn't all there' adds to the likelihood that he was suffering from a mental illness. I'd be thinking along the lines that he 'wasn't all there' either. Is the fact that we think that proof he had a mental illness, no, absolutely not. I acknowledge that.

So, without proof, is it a lie to say he didn't suffer from a mental illness? I'm going to say no. Because we don't have proof that it's a lie either.

The burden of proof isnt there to disprove the mental illness, look at the timeline of this , the guy was shot in the afternoon and before 4pm we had politicians and twitter users all claiming a man with mental health issues was murdered , people who had no association with the area or family.

If you sit in your armchair and claim somebody is mentally ill from your laptop with no proof that is a lie.

Perpetuating a lie about joe biden having dementia became a banabale offence on this forum because there was no evidence. These grifters are doing it for the same reason, to perpetuate their agenda.

And in the weeks since this incident no amount of super sluths or connected journos have managed to get any confirmation about this at all. At this point regurgitating the point is a lie because its no longer a scramble case of before the dust settles, it has settled and no evidence found for it. Now the good faith thing to do is to just stop referencing mental health when discussing george unless some hard proof to the contrary shows up

BattleCorp

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If you sit in your armchair and claim somebody is mentally ill from your laptop with no proof that is a lie.

That's not correct. In the case above, it isn't a lie......it's speculation. It's only a lie if you know he 100% didn't suffer from a mental illness. And none of us can know that 100%.

I believe the mental illness aspect of this case is neither here nor there eitherways so I'm going to drop it. The Gardai had to act and I believe they acted accordingly, whether he had a mental illness or not.

Quantum Erasure

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there couldn't be. GDPR would prevent them from commenting publicly on his health.

Or just, you know, patient confidentiallity

Quantum Erasure

weldoninhio wrote: »

GDPR doesn’t cover dead people.

Its health and safety gone mad...

Eric Cartman

BattleCorp wrote: »

That's not correct. In the case above, it isn't a lie......it's speculation. It's only a lie if you know he 100% didn't suffer from a mental illness. And none of us can know that 100%.

I believe the mental illness aspect of this case is neither here nor there eitherways so I'm going to drop it. The Gardai had to act and I believe they acted accordingly, whether he had a mental illness or not.

Grand but just to ask was george having previous convictions just speculation and alright to mention until we got confirmation ?

weldoninhio

BattleCorp wrote: »

We aren't on the same wavelength.

You can have a mental illness without it being diagnosed. The same as you can have cancer without being diagnosed. Or high blood pressure, or any other medical condition really. The absence of a diagnosis doesn't mean that you don't have that condition.

The fact that you are fairly sure that the guy 'wasn't all there' adds to the likelihood that he was suffering from a mental illness. I'd be thinking along the lines that he 'wasn't all there' either. Is the fact that we think that proof he had a mental illness, no, absolutely not. I acknowledge that.

So, without proof, is it a lie to say he suffered from a mental illness? I'm going to say no. Because we don't have proof that it's a lie either.

Hahahaha schroedingers mental illness.

But on a serious note, your unemployed ma and sister can’t diagnose a mental illness, so taking his family at face value is nonsense.

BattleCorp

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Grand but just to ask was george having previous convictions just speculation and alright to mention until we got confirmation ?

I don't know. I'd say the first person who posted about his previous convictions probably did lie. And then others took it as gospel and posted it far and wide.

It's much easier to prove a lie when it comes to previous convictions than it is to prove a lie when it comes to mental health.

BattleCorp

weldoninhio wrote: »

Hahahaha schroedingers mental illness.

But on a serious note, your unemployed ma and sister can’t diagnose a mental illness, so taking his family at face value is nonsense.

Seriously though, you don't have to be diagnosed with mental illness to have a mental illness.

If someone never goes to a doctor and later dies from cancer, does that mean that they didn't have cancer........because it wasn't diagnosed?

I'm not saying that GN had a mental illness. It does look like it though based on his actions. I'm just saying it's a possibility. The fact that we don't have proof of a diagnosis doesn't mean that he didn't have a mental illness. Again, all of this is speculation because I don't know.

Again though, mental illness or not, I believe the Gardai did what needed to be done.

What you say about his family not being able to diagnose mental illness is 100% true. But they can suspect it. And their suspicions may well be true. Or not.

Even if he had mental health issues.And assuming the Gardai were familiar with him.

At the point he swung at the cops with the knife, irrespective of mental health, it was ending one way once non lethal measures failed. Unfortunate. But inevitable.

If he was that violent, or potentially that violent, should he have been in the community.
The mental health card I suspect is a red herring, an effort to absolve this unfortunate young black man of any responsibility for his actions, to claim to be a victim himself, failed by the state and gunned down by racist white cops in racist Ireland and we should all feel bad.
And stuff.

Eric Cartman

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't know. I'd say the first person who posted about his previous convictions probably did lie. And then others took it as gospel and posted it far and wide.

It's much easier to prove a lie when it comes to previous convictions than it is to prove a lie when it comes to mental health.

So you accept that somebody just sitting down and making up utter crap to suit their agenda with no knowledge whatsoever is a lie, i doubt the person who made up the convictions had georges rap sheet to hand just like the twitter user who screamed mental health didnt have his hse record to hand. Im flad to see you can finally agree that both of those people flat out lied in the hours after the incident , both lied to suit their agenda

Eric Cartman

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Even if he had mental health issues.And assuming the Gardai were familiar with him.

At the point he swung at the cops with the knife, irrespective of mental health, it was ending one way once non lethal measures failed. Unfortunate. But inevitable.

If he was that violent, or potentially that violent, should he have been in the community.
The mental health card I suspect is a red herring, an effort to absolve this unfortunate young black man of any responsibility for his actions, to claim to be a victim himself, failed by the state and gunned down by racist white cops in racist Ireland and we should all feel bad.
And stuff.

He was ‘known to gardai’ and not in a mental health related capacity

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

He was ‘known to gardai’ and not in a mental health related capacity

I suspect a chap doesn't suddenly act out of character. equip himself with a long knife , stroll down to the local Spar and smash a shop keeper in the face.

BattleCorp

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So you accept that somebody just sitting down and making up utter crap to suit their agenda with no knowledge whatsoever is a lie, i doubt the person who made up the convictions had georges rap sheet to hand

just like the twitter user who screamed mental health didnt have his hse record to hand. Im flad to see you can finally agree that both of those people flat out lied in the hours after the incident , both lied to suit their agenda

Yep. I accept that somebody just sitting down and making up utter crap (about previous criminal history) to suit their agenda with no knowledge whatsoever is a lie. Where did I say any different?

But I'm not in agreement with you on the second part of the post. The absence of a clinical diagnosis doesn't mean that he wasn't suffering from a mental illness. He may or may not have been suffering from a mental illness. Looking at his actions on the day, he wasn't exactly behaving like a rational, sane member of society.

So, the previous criminal history aspect - more than likely a lie.
The mental health aspect - more than likely speculation, and speculation that may have been true. Or could have been a lie. But we can't say for certain.

Anyway, I've repeated the same thing several times so I won't engage any more. Unless I change my mind.

Effects

weldoninhio wrote: »

GDPR doesn’t cover dead people.

GDPR isn't really the issue. There's still a duty of confidence.
You can't put someones medical records up for display just because they are dead.

Hellokitty1212

Effects wrote: »

GDPR isn't really the issue. There's still a duty of confidence.
You can't put someones medical records up for display just because they are dead.

And that’s why his defenders can make up any old crap as the truth can’t be told.

BattleCorp

Effects wrote: »

GDPR isn't really the issue. There's still a duty of confidence.
You can't put someones medical records up for display just because they are dead.

Would his family be entitled to them when he is dead? I probably doubt it.

BattleCorp

Effects wrote: »

He'd already been shot when he swung the knife at the cops.

Then he was a slow learner.

mynamejeff

Effects wrote: »

He'd already been shot when he swung the knife at the cops.

are you suggesting that the garda were not acting in immediate self defence ?

BattleCorp

Effects wrote: »

Dunno, might go to next of kin if requested. I'm not sure though.
I've received medical files for deceased next of kin in the past.

Imagine the family asking for the medical records to solve an argument on boards.

frozenfrozen

Effects wrote: »

He'd already been shot when he swung the knife at the cops.

Based on your technical analysis of the footage which you couldn't stand behind for even a second when I questioned it?

weldoninhio

BattleCorp wrote: »

Imagine the family asking for the medical records to solve an argument on boards.

I don’t think that$ the r€a$on the family would be looking for m€dical r€cord$

BattleCorp

weldoninhio wrote: »

I don’t think that$ the r€a$on the family would be looking for m€dical r€cord$

I see what you did there.

Personally I don't think it makes a jot of difference if he was mentally ill or not. He was shot for his actions, not his state of mind.

givyjoe

Effects wrote: »

He'd already been shot when he swung the knife at the cops.

That's because he was attempting to enter the house, you know, with a knife, after he had beaten up a shopkeeper. I mean, who doesn't like a good hostage situation.

tayto lover

Effects wrote: »

I'm suggesting you should read what the Garda sources are saying.
As the sources are confidential, whether you choose to believe what they are saying is true or not is up to you.

Why all the cryptic stuff?

tayto lover

Effects wrote: »

There's nothing cryptic about it. Garda sources are usually confidential because they aren't supposed to be commenting on cases in such a manner, but feel the information would benefit public knowledge.

Have you a link to what they said?

Effects

Effects wrote: »

I don't think I read your post, which is probably why I didn't respond.

Look, there's zero proof so far that he wasn't shot before he swung the knife. So I can say what I like about it and can't be proven wrong.

We'll leave making stuff up to suit agenda to others.

The man got shot while attacking armed Gardai with a knife. And died.
Theyre the only facts we know.

Burkie1203

Murmurings on social media quoting the solicitor that the independent PM produced some different findings to the state pathologist.

Burkie1203

Effects wrote: »

That’s usually the case, so nothing out of the ordinary.

Yeah but it will fuel the fire a bit.

Herald have a full-page article today headline "gardai should apologise" and quotes a load of Africans saying same.

Burkie1203

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Yeah but it will fuel the fire a bit.

Herald have a full-page article today headline "gardai should apologise" and quotes a load of Africans saying same.

Imagine my shock.

nullzero

Effects wrote: »

I don't think I read your post, which is probably why I didn't respond.

Look, there's zero proof so far that he wasn't shot before he swung the knife. So I can say what I like about it and can't be proven wrong.

What's your hypothesis then?

Gardai shot George Nkencho for no good reason?

Were there motivating factors for the Gardai to do this? Is it because An Garda Síochána is an institutionally racist organisation?
Or do Gardai just love shooting people with mental health issues regardless of their skin colour?