George Nkencho shooting *Mod warning Added to OP*

Buddy Bubs

everlast75 wrote: »

I think discussions on this matter could be short circuited to a large degree if, before giving their opinion, everyone could clarify

1) whether they believe racism is wrong or not.
2) whether they believe it is okay to shoot someone dead when they are committing a crime
3) whether someone with mental health issues should be dealt with differently than someone else.

NB - I'm not pre-judging the outcome of any independent investigation. These are just core beliefs that everyone has.

To me, it seems prudent to establish one's stance on these issues from the get go. It would save hours of back and forths with someone arguing for example, whether this situation was dealt with differently because of race only to get someone to agree that it was, and only then to find out that they think that is okay. What's the point in wasting time on that argument?

Anyhoo, that's my view on this discussion.

1) yes, racism is wrong. Take individuals on their own merits
2)depends on the crime. The garda were justified in this case
3) no, I think mental health is a buzzword used to excuse bad behavior. Way too broad. We used to say he/she is a nasty c**t now we say God help them they've mental health issues. Every bad f***er in the history of the world obviously has issues inside the head, otherwise they wouldn't be bad people.

As a question to anyone here, what does mental health issues mean? Anger? Psycopathy? Narcissism? Depression? Schizophrenia? Mania? How do any of these excuse crime?

everlast75

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

1) yes, racism is wrong. Take individuals on their own merits
2)depends on the crime. The garda were justified in this case
3) no, I think mental health is a buzzword used to excuse bad behavior. Way too broad. We used to say he/she is a nasty c**t now we say God help them they've mental health issues. Every bad f***er in the history of the world obviously has issues inside the head, otherwise they wouldn't be bad people.

As a question to anyone here, what does mental health issues mean? Anger? Psycopathy? Narcissism? Depression? Schizophrenia? Mania? How do any of these excuse crime?

Perfect! Thank you. That means we can talk about the bits where we differ. For example, we don't spend hours talking about racism only for you to say that you don't see a problem with it.

1) noted.
2) do you think Gardai lacked, as a body, the training or equipment required to de-escalate the problem?
3) that part is entirely subjective, no? Can we not rely on medical professionals with years of training to establish whether someone is mentally unwell or not? I do agree with you that it is the "go to" defence of someone accused of a serious crime. But if someone truly is mentally unwell, for example has a clinical problem with their brain, they should be treated accordingly?

Thanks again for clarifying those points.

RandomName2

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

Black Ethno-Narcissism has been in full swing since George Floyd's death and runs absolutely rampant on social media.

There seems to be this assumption that Black criminals should be able to behave as aggressively and violently as they like, and that White law enforcement must be willing to lose their own lives rather than defend themselves appropriately from attack.

In fairness the police in America are clearly trigger happy. We have seen over, and over again the police shooting unarmed people without much cause. I believe they have shot anyone who they feel that they can get away with shooting, which for social-economic reasons tends to be blacks, but by no means exclusively. America also does have bad legacies in terms of race relations with blacks that it frankly doesn't with other ethnic minorities.

I think conflating Ireland and America in terms of policing is unhelpful. They are not analogous.

Beechwoodspark

Mental health is in no way an excuse for his extreme violence and robbery

lawrencesummers

If a BLM movement in Ireland decides to protest this shooting it will do nothing but harm the credibility and support they have garnered in 2020.

If BLM is about equality and racism then they have to hold their hands up and say that this shooting isn’t anything like the multiple ones we have seen in the US.

If the anecdotal reports of this persons actions are confirmed and the BLM movement spend days marching, causing public disturbance and frankly tarnishing the death of George Floyd by linking this one to it then a lot of decent Irish people could turn their back on and Irish BLM movement.

TomTomTim

RandomName2 wrote: »

In fairness the police in America are clearly trigger happy. We have seen over, and over again the police shooting unarmed people without much cause. I believe they have shot anyone who they feel that they can get away with shooting, which for social-economic reasons tends to be blacks, but by no means exclusively. America also does have bad legacies in terms of race relations with blacks that it frankly doesn't with other ethnic minorities.

I think conflating Ireland and America in terms of policing is unhelpful. They are not analogous.

Why don't you just say that they commit more crime per capita instead this sociology drivel.

KevRossi

RTE aren't running on this that much, but there again most of them are sleeping off the turkey, ham and fine port. I also son't think they reported on the incidents yesterday to stop inflaming the situation, a bit why the Gardai stood down yesterday. Any intervention from them would have escalated it.

Like I said, the black community in D15 doesn't seem to have any natural, respected leaders; elected or otherwise which is a pity. Certainly disappointing to see three of the most prominent people of colour in this country; Leo Varadkar, Hazel Chu and Ebun Joseph either remain totally silent or in fact stirring it up. Also don't see any black artists going out asking for calm which would help.

Admittedly Varadkar doesn't give a toss about working class, but Chu is a Lord Mayor of the city next door and is permanently tweeting about racism. Joseph's interests are best served in racial division.

Gruffalux

everlast75 wrote: »

2) do you think Gardai lacked, as a body, the training or equipment required to de-escalate the problem?
.

I think the Armed Response Unit have very tough training. Very low pass rate due to high demands of test. And several retrainings per annum. I could be corrected on that. Would like to hear. But my go to would be they have the training as professionals in a very demanding dangerous job.

CrazyFather1

lawrencesummers wrote: »

If a BLM movement in Ireland decides to protest this shooting it will do nothing but harm the credibility and support they have garnered in 2020.

If BLM is about equality and racism then they have to hold their hands up and say that this shooting isn’t anything like the multiple ones we have seen in the US.

If the anecdotal reports of this persons actions are confirmed and the BLM movement spend days marching, causing public disturbance and frankly tarnishing the death of George Floyd by linking this one to it then a lot of decent Irish people could turn their back on and Irish BLM movement.

You will find a certain percentage of people will be more than happy to have a us v them situation.

RandomName2

TomTomTim wrote: »

Why don't you just say that they commit more crime per capita instead this sociology drivel.

No, no, I mean if you shoot a random black dude dressed in baggy pants he's probably not going to turn out to be a supreme court judge. There is a consistent pattern of US police abusing their power, and being immune from prosecution when they do so. If their victims were lawyers, media presenters, and politicians they would get short shrift.

everlast75

everlast75 wrote: »

Perfect! Thank you. That means we can talk about the bits where we differ. For example, we don't spend hours talking about racism only for you to say that you don't see a problem with it.

1) noted.
2) do you think Gardai lacked, as a body, the training or equipment required to de-escalate the problem?
3) that part is entirely subjective, no? Can we not rely on medical professionals with years of training to establish whether someone is mentally unwell or not? I do agree with you that it is the "go to" defence of someone accused of a serious crime. But if someone truly is mentally unwell, for example has a clinical problem with their brain, they should be treated accordingly?

Thanks again for clarifying those points.

Just on point 2 and 3.
No, I don't believe the Gardai are lacking in training. The ASU take part in simulated exercises involving many different situations. They are trained and carry less lethal weapons as well as lethal weapons. It looks like all options were explored before a shot was fired.

When exactly do you think was the time to bring in the mental health experts? One size does not fit all. This particular incident, it does not appear that there was any time to bring in unarmed medical professionals.

sasta le

bubblypop wrote: »

Yeah cos thats the important part of the whole incident.

It's affects the normal decent people in the area

Beechwoodspark

In a few of the articles some crowd known as the “Igbo community” are quoted.

Who are they does anyone know

CrazyFather1

KevRossi wrote: »

RTE aren't running on this that much, but there again most of them are sleeping off the turkey, ham and fine port. I also son't think they reported on the incidents yesterday to stop inflaming the situation, a bit why the Gardai stood down yesterday. Any intervention from them would have escalated it.

Like I said, the black community in D15 doesn't seem to have any natural, respected leaders; elected or otherwise which is a pity. Certainly disappointing to see three of the most prominent people of colour in this country; Leo Varadkar, Hazel Chu and Ebun Joseph either remain totally silent or in fact stirring it up. Also don't see any black artists going out asking for calm which would help.

Admittedly Varadkar doesn't give a toss about working class, but Chu is a Lord Mayor of the city next door and is permanently tweeting about racism. Joseph's interests are best served in racial division.

Did you watch the 6 news last night? RTE ran a story which would incite anyone who had zero knowledge of what went on,. They had zero mention of him robbing a shop or attacking anyone. It was a disgrace

Chu is more than useless.

Dav010

everlast75 wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with clarifying those points before making your conclusion, and you may be entirely right on your reading of the event.

I myself don't want to prejudge the outcome of an independent enquiry.

The reason I say that is because from what I've read on social media replies, including boards, a shed load of people are basing their interpretation of what happened on some of those beliefs, and it appears to me to be a complete waste of time arguing certain issues, when time could be saved by setting out the stall from the get go.

Why would you feel that opinion on race and opinion on Gardai responce to an armed person posing a threat to the public should be mutually exclusive?

Like most, I suspect, the pertinent fact is not the color of the deceased, but the fact that he had already stabbed a member of the public and refused to drop the weapon.

Acosta

Aubrey Faint Limo wrote: »

In fairness people are coming down hard on the like of Helen MacEntee and Hazel Chu now


https://twitter.com/Cuan_oc/status/1344590976346697728

Nothing new there for Hazel Chu. Just the same NP racists who spend a lot of time online abusing her.

Sir Oxman

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Few random comments on twitter isn't enough.

They need to be called out by the media.

And by their electorates.

NewMan1982

Has it been confirmed the shop assistant was stabbed or slashed?

bilbot79

KevRossi wrote: »

RTE aren't running on this that much, but there again most of them are sleeping off the turkey, ham and fine port. I also son't think they reported on the incidents yesterday to stop inflaming the situation, a bit why the Gardai stood down yesterday. Any intervention from them would have escalated it.

Like I said, the black community in D15 doesn't seem to have any natural, respected leaders; elected or otherwise which is a pity. Certainly disappointing to see three of the most prominent people of colour in this country; Leo Varadkar, Hazel Chu and Ebun Joseph either remain totally silent or in fact stirring it up. Also don't see any black artists going out asking for calm which would help.

Admittedly Varadkar doesn't give a toss about working class, but Chu is a Lord Mayor of the city next door and is permanently tweeting about racism. Joseph's interests are best served in racial division.

But Varadkar provided a measured and balanced response?

Mules

We always copy America, it's disappointing but probably inevitable that those pushing divisive politics and stoking racial tension would turn up here as well.

I have seen a couple of posters on Twitter who call themselves 'diversity consultants' really stoking things. Racial division actually earns these people a livelihood.
I see all this getting worse in the long run

Where can someone put in a complaint to RTÉ? That avenue should be flooded with them.

Kivaro

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Where can someone put in a complaint to RTÉ? That avenue should be flooded with them.

It's quite simple really. You can even e-mail your complaint:
https://about.rte.ie/contact/complaints/

Believe it or not, the more complaints that go in, the more that they have to register them.

Mules

bilbot79 wrote: »

But Varadkar provided a measured and balanced response?

I don't think politicians should be commenting on this at all. It shouldn't be politicised. Politicians shouldn't be let near Twitter even at the best of times imo.

weisses

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Mental health is in no way an excuse for his extreme violence and robbery

Why not ?

Do you think a person in a healthy state of mind would wield a machete at someone who has a gun pointed at him ? And before that Robbed a shop and assaulted someone ?

Sir Oxman

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

In a few of the articles some crowd known as the “Igbo community” are quoted.

Who are they does anyone know

Igbo is a Nigerian ethnicity (tribe), Nigeria is a federal state.

Kivaro

Kivaro wrote: »

It's quiet simple really. You can even e-mail your complaint:
https://about.rte.ie/contact/complaints/

Believe it or not, the more complaints that go in, the more that they have to register them.

Thank you.

Galwayguy35

Its reassuring to see most people are on the side of the Gardai on this, McEntee made a bad call by not doing the same and backing them.

Amazing how many folks in their sitting rooms are now experts on what the ARU should have done and suggesting they got trigger happy because yer man was black.

hynesie08

Mules wrote: »

I don't think politicians should be commenting on this at all. It shouldn't be politicised. Politicians shouldn't be let near Twitter even at the best of times imo.

It was a fatal shooting in his constituency, it'd look a lot worse if he said nothing.

CrazyFather1

weisses wrote: »

Why not ?

Do you think a person in a healthy state of mind would wield a machete at someone who has a gun pointed at him ? And before that Robbed a shop and assaulted someone ?

Shops get robbed all over Ireland every day with knifes etc. Are you saying they all now have mental health issues?

tabby aspreme

I wonder what do the race baiters think of successful Black people, the like of Deborah Somorin, who overcame a horrendous situation, with the assistance of state services,and is now an asset to this country, those downtrodden protesters would be better served to follow her example.