Covid 19 and Group Cycling

Mercian Pro

magicbastarder wrote: »

"On the travel restrictions, Martin said “there is no remaining serious justification for the 5 kilometre limit”."
note the use of 'remaining'. that was at the end of may; was the 5km limit still in effect at the time?

For the record (but subject to correction!):
13 March - 27 March: Initial measures
28 March - 4 May: Lockdown - 2km circle
5 May - 7 June: Phase 1 - 5km circle
8June - 28 June: Phase 2+ - 20km circle or County limit
28 June - 20 Sept: Freedom - Unlimited
21 Sept - 21 Oct: Level 3.5 - County limit
22 Oct - 30 Nov: Level 5 - 5km circle
1 Dec - 24 Dec: Level 3 - County limit
25 Dec -29 Dec: Level 5- - County limit
30 Dec - ??: Level 5 - 5km circle

eeeee

On group cycling during covid, once solo training restrictions lifted I was back training on track, we were limited to I think it was 15 in total at the start, then things eased more and raced away on track, did a few crits, 1 TT, things went to 15 for training and unlimited racing, so it was hilarious - there'd be 15 of us at a training session, then 15 mins after it finished 60 people at the track for racing that evening!
Touch wood Neither 1 nor anyone I trained or raced with in that time came down with covid. Did some road spins with a few friends and all ok too.
Of course there could have been asymptomatic cases, so who knows if I or anyone else was covid positive but asymptomatic. All outdoor, and in close proximity once the 2m distancing was lifted.

magicbastarder

i have always assumed that unless you're cycling downwind of someone, you're pretty much safe.

though does that mean if you're cycling at 30km/h with a 30km/h tailwind, you build up a massive bubble of covid saturated air?

eeeee

On track there's almost always a headwind somewhere, and did a lot of pursuit training inches from the person in front. Actually the nationals were on savage windy days, both, and we all escaped covid free as far as I know, unknowning asymptomatic cases not withstanding.
That said restrictions aside you couldn't pay me to cycle in a group right now given the case numbers at the moment.

harringtonp

Peterx wrote: »

Thanks for sharing OP.

I wonder if the no testing for the 4 at the other table is more to do with the lack of testing capacity, as opposed to any scientific evidence that cycling is "safe".

Possibly but the contract tracer speaking to me gave the impression there was plenty of slack in the system... of course things changed rapidly very soon after

The tracer speaking to the original case did go off and consult with their manager in relation to the cycling group and he came back with the indoors and same table criteria.

Macy0161

I think there's general misconception's around what is deemed a close contact, as well as testing capacity, coming into play. I know from my workplace that it's not what a lot seem to think anyway.

Pre-covid, I would've thought it was common (and still gross) to get caught by snot rockets/ coughs etc on a group ride. I think people are more conscious and conscientious since. I did go on spins when the restrictions allowed, although I did decide against going the one week the county restrictions were lifted before Christmas. Wicklow has had consistently low levels, so I weighed that up. My club ran a Dublin and a Wicklow spin, as we're on the border.

I personally think that CI/ Sport Ireland took quite a liberal view of what constitutes "training" and pods. I assume, like most clubs, it's generally the same people who turn up every week for the different speed club spins. However, the max of 15 could be me and 14 different random club members on a Saturday and a Sunday. Quite different from say a football or GAA club (my childrens training they were in the same 15, every session (if people didn't show they stayed in that pod)).

There's lots of activities that are individually "covid safe" - the point of the restrictions is to restrict people movements overall. Picking out individual activities misses the point. We've avoided some of our local walks the last few days of 5km restrictions, as we haven't been comfortable with the crowds clearly outside 5km limits.

CramCycle wrote: »

Interestingly, hands to mouth transmission is increasingly viewed as unlikely, as fomite transmission seems to be incredibly unlikely.

Last time I heard it discussed, admittedly about a month ago, the suggestion was circa 25% hand to mouth. So still significant.

CramCycle

Macy0161 wrote: »

I think there's general misconception's around what is deemed a close contact, as well as testing capacity, coming into play. I know from my workplace that it's not what a lot seem to think anyway.

This is certainly true, with several people declaring themselves close contacts in my place when they weren't, although, at the minute, with delays in contact tracing, I ignore this now.

I personally think that CI/ Sport Ireland took quite a liberal view of what constitutes "training" and pods. I assume, like most clubs, it's generally the same people who turn up every week for the different speed club spins. However, the max of 15 could be me and 14 different random club members on a Saturday and a Sunday. Quite different from say a football or GAA club (my childrens training they were in the same 15, every session (if people didn't show they stayed in that pod)).

We ran groups of 8, but I imagine we are your smaller neighbour. We have almost the same people week in, week out, so the pods were largely the same with seemingly good compliance logging with CI.

There's lots of activities that are individually "covid safe" - the point of the restrictions is to restrict people movements overall. Picking out individual activities misses the point. We've avoided some of our local walks the last few days of 5km restrictions, as we haven't been comfortable with the crowds clearly outside 5km limits.

100%

Last time I heard it discussed, admittedly about a month ago, the suggestion was circa 25% hand to mouth. So still significant.

I thought it was almost non existent, it is possible but over the year, I could only recall one case of fomite transmission. I would hypothesize though that it is reduced to improved/intensified hand washing and general hygiene procedures but also, simply isn't a main source of transmission. This said, good hygiene practices reduce the transfer of other contaminants, so has net benefits on the health care system overall.

Macy0161

CramCycle wrote: »

We ran groups of 8, but I imagine we are your smaller neighbour. We have almost the same people week in, week out, so the pods were largely the same with seemingly good compliance logging with CI.

I don't think we got close to 15. The only spin I got out on with the lifted restrictions there were three. But over the summer, it was generally the same group of up to 8. However, there was no advice given that it should be same people.

CramCycle wrote: »

I thought it was almost non existent, it is possible but over the year, I could only recall one case of fomite transmission. I would hypothesize though that it is reduced to improved/intensified hand washing and general hygiene procedures but also, simply isn't a main source of transmission. This said, good hygiene practices reduce the transfer of other contaminants, so has net benefits on the health care system overall.

My research on this amounts to hearing Luke O'Neill on Pat Kenny before Christmas!

I personally think the rates of general sickness indicate that hand hygiene and masks should be part of the "new normal" even after vaccines, along with more remote working.

AndrewJRenko

Macy0161 wrote: »

I personally think the rates of general sickness, hand hygiene and masks should be part of the "new normal" even after vaccines, along with more remote working.

I don't think there is anything near enough consideration into the long term impacts of WFH, the loss of all those water-cooler and lunch-table conversations, the provision of a safe environment for those for whom home isn't a particularly safe place. I'm seeing difficulties for new recruits in organisations over the past year, the ones who've never seen most of their peers in the flesh.

Macy0161

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't think there is anything near enough consideration into the long term impacts of WFH, the loss of all those water-cooler and lunch-table conversations, the provision of a safe environment for those for whom home isn't a particularly safe place. I'm seeing difficulties for new recruits in organisations over the past year, the ones who've never seen most of their peers in the flesh.

I wouldn't say 100% remote, but most don't need to be in the office more than a day or two a week. I've had new starts, and many new to tasks/ processes, that have been successfully trained 100% remotely.

My experience has been that those most against it are those highest/ furthest away from the actual work - the direct line managers have got over the initial problems (that were mainly technical).

CramCycle

I'd be very pro if it works, that it should be offered and encouraged. I understand there are obvious drawbacks but I hear plenty of tails of people with a better work life / balance, although I hear from others who haven't that at all, so it will be one of those things that depends on the situation. All i hope is that managers who like the idea of being present, don't force it on people who are achieving their goals in a timely fashion and wish to remain at home.

Regrettably my job is 70%+ hands on, so not much of a choice but I actually enjoy how quiet the building is.

eeeee

I absolutely hate wfh.
I live in a small 1 bed flat, that is now my studio, gym and workplace. No balcony, no outdoor space. That said I love my flat and am lucky to have it.
It's ruined leisure home time.
I also really miss being around people, I'm a social animal and much prefer to be around people.
I cannot wait to get back to a non wfh environment.
My commute used to piss me off sometimes, 20k into a headwind every morning but I even miss that now.
That said I haven't got kids, so I wasn't missing time with them or anything like that that a lot of people are glad of wfh for. And despite my grumbling I actually like my commute. Free bike time!

Horses for courses.

Macy0161

I don't think it's for everyone, but the feedback I've got is overwhelmingly positive. Feedback is 1, or 2, days a week is what people want. For me, it's given me massive time with my children I wouldn't have, even with technically working longer hours. I definitely wasn't the longest commute in time or distance (cross city commute times are often overlooked in these discussions).

I've staff on site, (volunteers for essential work), so I am still in occasionally. Whatever about the future, if physical distancing is no longer a thing, at present the workplace is nothing like it was this time last year. Sat in a canteen that's lined up like an exam hall isn't the same fun or social interaction it was on shared tables.

Anyway, back to a cycling context, I've never minded my turbo so I've never been so consistent in my training, even with some off plan zwifting. tbh, one of my goals is to probably do a bit less rather than more, as I got sucked into double days with a morning workout, evening social ride. NEAT is way down though.

AndrewJRenko

Macy0161 wrote: »

I don't think it's for everyone, but the feedback I've got is overwhelmingly positive. Feedback is 1, or 2, days a week is what people want. For me, it's given me massive time with my children I wouldn't have, even with technically working longer hours. I definitely wasn't the longest commute in time or distance (cross city commute times are often overlooked in these discussions).

I've staff on site, (volunteers for essential work), so I am still in occasionally. Whatever about the future, if physical distancing is no longer a thing, at present the workplace is nothing like it was this time last year. Sat in a canteen that's lined up like an exam hall isn't the same fun or social interaction it was on shared tables.

Anyway, back to a cycling context, I've never minded my turbo so I've never been so consistent in my training, even with some off plan zwifting. tbh, one of my goals is to probably do a bit less rather than more, as I got sucked into double days with a morning workout, evening social ride. NEAT is way down though.

For most people, the elimination of commuting time is very positive.

But that's not the only issue here. Just as Cram noted the importance of managers not restricting access to WFH based on their own personal preferences, it is very important that managers and organisations don't restricted access to working-from-work based on their own personal preferences or based on the 'most people' principle.

For a start, no organisation should be imposing WFH as mandatory. This is a land grab of personal space, taking over a room in a private home, generally for no recompense. No employee should be forced to reallocate a significant chunk of their personal space to their employer.

There are significant health and ergonomic issues here, around desk space, desk size, lighting, heating - and the costs of providing all of these being generally imposed on the employee.

Organisations should also tread carefully. The loss of social interaction with colleagues makes work harder to progress. It makes building relationships more difficult. This is very, very hard to measure, if not impossible to measure.

This jump to WFH because most people don't like commuting could well have signficant negative impacts in the long term.

Macy0161

I wouldn't say there will be any desire to make it mandatory. I would suggest it's more likely to be the opposite - as we've seen in Lockdown 2 versus March, with the number of "essential" office based workers multiplying. I guess it remains to be seen this time.

The reality is that most organisations will be tied to leases, so there will be no issue with those that want to be 100% office based.

I can only talk for my own organisation, and there has been no ill effects of process improvement since being remote. I don't think there's evidence either way as to the long term effects on things like that? Particularly in the context of those that have grown up with social media and online communications.

Seth Brundle

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

For a start, no organisation should be imposing WFH as mandatory. This is a land grab of personal space, taking over a room in a private home, generally for no recompense. No employee should be forced to reallocate a significant chunk of their personal space to their employer.

My employer has a large production and admin facility (we deal in short shelf life goods). All admin are WFH to minimise the risk to the production staff. If production stops for a considerable length of time then we're all out of work.
Now whilst all admin staff are WFH, they have provided whatever is required to work safely/comfortably/etc from home but realistically they can't offer any other alternatives to the office currently.

emclau

Not related to cycling, but I found this very informative. Scary how transmissible the virus is indoors , without protection measures. Kind of explains the huge jump in infections we’re seeing after all the ‘anecdotal’ evidence of house parties over Christmas...

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html

Large bottle small glass

emclau wrote: »

Not related to cycling, but I found this very informative. Scary how transmissible the virus is indoors , without protection measures. Kind of explains the huge jump in infections we’re seeing after all the ‘anecdotal’ evidence of house parties over Christmas...

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html

There's a Irish architect on twitter screaming about focusing on ventilation in relation to allowing access to buildings on basis of adequate ventilation and not the activity inside the building

Macy0161

Is "air-sealed" still a thing in new builds?

cletus

Macy0161 wrote: »

Is "air-sealed" still a thing in new builds?

Yeah, but it refers to air not getting in where you don't want it, i.e. unwanted draughts around door and window seals etc. It should be paired with a ventilation system

JimmiesRustled

Macy0161 wrote: »

Is "air-sealed" still a thing in new builds?

Just to expand on what Cletus has said. "Air Sealed" refers to the air permeability of the dwelling. Most new builds are somewhere around 3m3/hr/m2 or roughly 0.15 air changes. Now, technically each build should be tested for this air permeability but in reality this sometimes isn't the case.

If you take, for instance, any new estate in the country you'll generally have a couple of "types" of house. It might only be 1 of each house type tested.

The test itself is a bit confusing. You would assume that the test takes into account the whole house and everything within it. This is not the case. All openings within the dwelling are closed up prior to the test. Chimneys and any vents within the dwelling are all blocked up before the test begins.

All new builds need to comply with Part-F of the building regulations which deals with ventilation. Both for supply and extraction. You'll find 1 of 3 systems within new builds:
- Demand control ventilation (Central extract with humidity sensitive air inlets)
- Mechanical heat recovery unit
- Plastic passive vents

harringtonp

emclau wrote: »

Not related to cycling, but I found this very informative. Scary how transmissible the virus is indoors , without protection measures. Kind of explains the huge jump in infections we’re seeing after all the ‘anecdotal’ evidence of house parties over Christmas...

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html

This is one of the best Covid-19 articles I've read and I'd say is very relevant to group cycling . It sounds plausible and you get the impression there is some substance and research behind its conclusions.

If you go along with its findings it would appear that the risk of transmission when cycling in a group on the road is very low. I managed to race a few times in the summer and was wondering about Covid-19 risk. Retrospectively it would appear that all the measures put in place were relevant and would make a big difference to contagion: no on the day sign on, arriving at the start line within 5 minutes of your start time, no prizegiving, dispersing immediately afterwards. Even though it was permissible, there was a reluctance to put on races and it would be hoped that with a better understanding of transmission, more organisers will step forward this year. It seems to me that the biggest risk around races (running in the format they ran in 2020) would be in the actual planning if organisers happened to be meeting up in a small room.

WRT sportives, I think they are a different kettle of fish. And this is simply because the whole ethos is around sociability, food stops and the banter afterwards. A sportive run along the lines of a 2020 race would be a pretty dull affair.

Finally the thread has derailed a lot from its original intention though it doesn't matter at this stage. I was hoping that people would come back with similar stories. I initially thought there may be a reluctance to come forward but I'm now inclined to think that incidences like that in our club have just not happened... and that is a good thing of course. We were just unfortunate even though as a club we were generally careful throughout the year. We generally cycled in pods of up to 6 riders with riders mostly keeping to their pods (at times mid summer 2 pods would merge). On the day in question it wasn't nice weather and only 7 turned up so we went out as a single group. Our stops were nearly all outdoors during the year but again conditions on the day dictated a change of plan.

beauf

I think it's an interesting thread even for people who don't do group cycles but are interested in the transmission of covid. It's why is less risky to do socially distanced exercise walk outside. Than sit socially distanced inside. Why you need to open windows etc.

CramCycle

It will be interesting to see if what is commonly called the "UK variant" will change our understanding and behaviour in outdoor and indoor settings. Looking at the Ct numbers on the new variant, it would appear that the viral load it produces is significantly higher, therefore in enclosed spaces masks are less effective (still effective) and time limits need to be drastically reduced. I imagine shops etc will have to further reduce the numbers on site. It will be interesting to see outside face to face contact will be as safe as it is now, quite possibly not.

It maybe a season of Strava TTs

Macy0161

Particularly, as I heard a stat this morning of 1 in 10 having "long covid" (presumably of symptomatic cases).

Shops are an interesting one - my weekly trip out has been the family food shop. Only one I've felt there was too many in, and that was only in December at an "Irish" supermarket. Any that have the traffic lights I've found numbers fine. Bigger issue is the behaviour of some in the shop, which I don't think will change with further limiting of numbers. I'm not really sure how those countries with curfews are managing the essential shopping - presumably that's condensing the available hours, making more of an issue of it?

JimmiesRustled

CramCycle wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if what is commonly called the "UK variant" will change our understanding and behaviour in outdoor and indoor settings. Looking at the Ct numbers on the new variant, it would appear that the viral load it produces is significantly higher, therefore in enclosed spaces masks are less effective (still effective) and time limits need to be drastically reduced. I imagine shops etc will have to further reduce the numbers on site. It will be interesting to see outside face to face contact will be as safe as it is now, quite possibly not.

It maybe a season of Strava TTs

I reckon so. Had been hoping for a few stage races with a potential Rás but I can't see how I could justify that to work should I catch Covid at one of those events. Don't think I'll be stage racing until getting the vaccine.

CramCycle

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

I reckon so. Had been hoping for a few stage races with a potential Rás but I can't see how I could justify that to work should I catch Covid at one of those events. Don't think I'll be stage racing until getting the vaccine.

Even then, the vaccine may not allow you to go out and behave normally, you might still have to wait until a sufficient percentage of the population have it for events to open up properly.

I imagine if we reduce lock down rules a bit, Strava TTs might be as good as it gets for a few months if CI and others remain sensible in their approach, but again, it depends on the new variants and what transmission is like. If we are at a stage where transmission is as it was here 6 months ago, then races would be fine, if we are in a different place, and the heavier viral load is present, asymptomatic or not, a bunch of riders huddled together in groups of 20 to 80 riders will simply be a no go. It will take time for people more knowledgeable than me to figure that out though.

beauf

Macy0161 wrote: »

Particularly, as I heard a stat this morning of 1 in 10 having "long covid" (presumably of symptomatic cases).

Shops are an interesting one - my weekly trip out has been the family food shop. Only one I've felt there was too many in, and that was only in December at an "Irish" supermarket. Any that have the traffic lights I've found numbers fine. Bigger issue is the behaviour of some in the shop, which I don't think will change with further limiting of numbers. I'm not really sure how those countries with curfews are managing the essential shopping - presumably that's condensing the available hours, making more of an issue of it?

Personally I think it was the opening of retail that started it, as many were nuts.I did a U turn on a couple of show that looked mad. Then everyone brought it home. As you say many people not respecting personal space at all.

That said best to see how to move forward than look back.

loyatemu

beauf wrote: »

Personally I think it was the opening of retail that started it, as many were nuts.I did a U turn on a couple of show that looked mad. Then everyone brought it home. As you say many people not respecting personal space at all.

That said best to see how to move forward than look back.

studies from earlier in the pandemic showed it didn't spread much in retail environments and that the original advise regarding "15 mins" close contact still seemed to be correct (though in some settings aircon expanded the area considered to be close contact). The new variant may change that but it's likely to be a shorter time rather than a longer distance.

In normal circumstances I think the chances of catching it outdoors are tiny, and in shops with everyone masked, still pretty small.

re: the case mentioned in the OP - we were on a spin before Xmas and stopped for coffee - despite it being about 2 degrees, no-one in the group wanted to sit inside so we sat outside. I haven't sat indoors with anyone other than my immediate family since March.

beauf

I felt the Xmas rush in retail people weren't as careful as previously. The numbers started to rise before Xmas before people would have traveled home. But it's a minor point now.