2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

I wonder how much our “GDP” will fall by if it’s no longer tax advantageous for the multinationals to hold their IP, intangibles etc. in Ireland?

Most of it moved a few years back didn’t it ?

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

Most of it moved a few years back didn’t it ?

I had a search on this last time you mentioned it and concluded that very little IP moved back to the US or wherever. Where did you hear/read that most of the multinational IP was repatriated?

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

I wonder how much our “GDP” will fall by if it’s no longer tax advantageous for the multinationals to hold their IP, intangibles etc. in Ireland?

I wonder how much our GDP will grow by when the Corona smoke clears and the penny drops that we are now the only native English speaking country in the EU after Brexit, your right so many intangibles, GDP is as likely to go up as it is down in the future. Only you and Nostradamus know the truth do

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

I had a search on this last time you mentioned it and concluded that very little IP moved back to the US or wherever. Where did you hear/read that most of the multinational IP was repatriated?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-to-end-use-of-double-irish-as-tax-loophole-set-to-close-1.4128174%3fmode=amp

Ireland bowed to international pressure five years ago and agreed to close the scheme, which was popular with technology and pharmaceutical businesses, but companies that already used it were given until the end of 2020 to end the practice.

Most companies acted well ahead of that deadline, replacing their double Irish arrangements with new structures that have the same benefits, said Ed Kleinbard, a tax law professor at the University of Southern California, Los Angeles. Google’s move was unusual in that it suggested the company had acted later than others, he added.

Hubertj

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Lots of people like to say "but but but the council" conveniently leaving aside the fact FG heavily centralized lots of traditional local authority powers

As one of DIT's lecturers in economics, local development and planning described -



https://www.dublininquirer.com/2018/12/19/the-central-government-is-treating-councils-shamefully

I don’t think I the competence or inclination to act is present whether it is at local level or centralised. You can have the best plans in the world and the biggest budget you want but if those in charge of execution are not up to the task....

mcsean2163

Thanks for the the twitter tip, rang the agent and discovered house is already sale agreed. It's been on the market since September!#@!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/number-of-homes-for-sale-now-at-lowest-level-in-over-a-decade-1.4486679?mode=amp

Apparently there were 15,500 second hand homes in sale in January?

I've been reading that the property situation has improved but when I do a search for all Ireland on myhome, I get 11,471 results. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

wassie

Daft throws up a similar result - 12,078 actual dwellings, where as if you include sites it jumps to 15,288.

DataDude

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Thanks for the the twitter tip, rang the agent and discovered house is already sale agreed. It's been on the market since September!#@!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/number-of-homes-for-sale-now-at-lowest-level-in-over-a-decade-1.4486679?mode=amp

Apparently there were 15,500 second hand homes in sale in January?

I've been reading that the property situation has improved but when I do a search for all Ireland on myhome, I get 11,471 results. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

Is the house you are referring to here the one in Silchester? I could have sworn that was advertised 3 weeks ago. Taken down. Then put up again yesterday? Strange if already sale agreed..

Timing belt

PropQueries wrote: »

If debt doesn’t matter, why don’t the eastern EU members of the EU borrow right up to our debt per capita level and invest in infrastructure etc. and make themselves the most advanced countries on the planet in the 21st century?

They obviously have the leeway given their current debt levels compared to ours.

My thinking is that they don’t buy into the current narrative that this permanent deficit spending can last much longer IMO.

The Eastern European countries are scared of inflation making them uncompetitive. It’s not that long ago they had significant inflation which crippled their economies. Who knows maybe they are right only time will tell..we will hear a lot about inflation as they will compare this year to last year when there was deflation. All eyes will be on USA and if the rest of the world accepts its fiscal spending and doesn’t loose confidence in the Dollar.

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-to-end-use-of-double-irish-as-tax-loophole-set-to-close-1.4128174%3fmode=amp

Did you actually read the whole article? I was asking specifically about intellectual property.

The "Double Irish" which was closed did not actually require the IP to be held in an Irish company. As the article confirms Google held their IP in Bermuda at the time.

The article also says:

Most companies acted well ahead of that deadline, replacing their double Irish arrangements with new structures that have the same benefits..

What are those new structures?

According to a report from the IMF last year, one popular new avoidance arrangement involved companies injecting intellectual property (IP) into new subsidiaries in Ireland, known as IP onshoring.

Rather than most of the MNC IP having been removed from Ireland 5 years ago, as you claim, we have seen an increase in IP being held here. Seamus Coffey explained why:

Thus, the taxable income of the Irish operating company will move from being reduced by “renting” the IP and making annual royalty payments for the use of the IP to being reduced by “buying” the IP and claiming capital allowances each year based on the cost of acquiring and maintaining the IP.

Any good tax haven worth the name has more than one scheme. Whilst the "Double Irish" has been closed, the "Green Jersey" is alive and well and thus we have more IP held in Ireland now than we did 5 years ago.

mcsean2163

DataDude wrote: »

Is the house you are referring to here the one in Silchester? I could have sworn that was advertised 3 weeks ago. Taken down. Then put up again yesterday? Strange if already sale agreed..

No, another one in the locale, slightly more pricey, would have left us very stretched but wife was saying dream home. Anyway, not to be.

Cal4567

Hubertj wrote: »

I don’t think I the competence or inclination to act is present whether it is at local level or centralised. You can have the best plans in the world and the biggest budget you want but if those in charge of execution are not up to the task....

Agree 100%. It is easy for us to criticize individuals we don't actually know but this is not something that has just surfaced over night. I may be criticized for such a sweeping statement but I would be concerned with the type of individual I see in significant roles in Councils. The average standard of councillor is also poor.

On reflection I am really not that surprised with those who work in the centralised system we have that they want to retain/take back control.

There has always been tension between central government and local councils. It has added to the dysfunction. Now more evident than ever.

The 2008 mess cost country around 44 billions
We are near this digits already
That how much Covid cost
Troika EMF austerity that what happened after.

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

Did you actually read the whole article? I was asking specifically about intellectual property.

The "Double Irish" which was closed did not actually require the IP to be held in an Irish company. As the article confirms Google held their IP in Bermuda at the time.

The article also says:



What are those new structures?



Rather than most of the MNC IP having been removed from Ireland 5 years ago, as you claim, we have seen an increase in IP being held here. Seamus Coffey explained why:



Any good tax haven worth the name has more than one scheme. Whilst the "Double Irish" has been closed, the "Green Jersey" is alive and well and thus we have more IP held in Ireland now than we did 5 years ago.

Yes but given your innate understanding of the tax code you’ll understand why the reason why google holding the ip in Bermuda was significant in the context of our tax regime and why them moving it from Bermuda back onshore is significant.

Facebook also onshored their IP

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-ip-move-highlights-irish-corporation-tax-risks-1.4446557%3fmode=amp

Where are you seeing IP levels have increased ?

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

Yes but given your innate understanding of the tax code you’ll understand why the reason why google holding the ip in Bermuda was significant in the context of our tax regime and why them moving it from Bermuda back onshore is significant.

I don't need an innate understanding of the tax code to understand that Google moving IP from Bermuda to the US is not a good example to give as an example of IP moving out of Ireland.

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

Facebook also onshored their IP

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-ip-move-highlights-irish-corporation-tax-risks-1.4446557%3fmode=amp

According to Coffey (and the TAXE Committee of the European Parliament) that IP was actually in the Cayman Islands, not Ireland. Articles suggesting otherwise look like lazy journalism.

Cyrus wrote: »

Where are you seeing IP levels have increased ?

The figures for capital allowances claimed against intangible assets in breakdown of corporation tax returns. They ballooned in 2015, and have continued to rise. 99% of this is claimed by MNCs.

Credit where it is due. It's actually a very clever scheme from our governments point of view.

PropQueries

schmittel wrote: »

I don't need an innate understanding of the tax code to understand that Google moving IP from Bermuda to the US is not a good example to give as an example of IP moving out of Ireland.

I think facebooks example from the last couple of months will clarify the issue with the Irish Times reporting three months ago:

“A move by Facebook to repatriate most of its intellectual property from the Republic back to the United States underscores risks to the State’s multinational-fuelled corporation tax haul as global tax-reform efforts move up a gear in 2021, according to economists.”

It also says that 77% of all corporation tax receipts came from multinationals in 2019 so I don’t see how the media are reporting that we will only lose €2 billion from these tax reforms.

I really don’t see where the funds will come from for the state to continue buying, leasing etc. homes past July this year IMO

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-ip-move-highlights-irish-corporation-tax-risks-1.4446557

Edit: apologies, the article was already linked and both using it to back up opposing viewpoints

awec

PropQueries wrote: »

I think facebooks example from the last couple of months will clarify the issue with the Irish Times reporting three months ago:

“A move by Facebook to repatriate most of its intellectual property from the Republic back to the United States underscores risks to the State’s multinational-fuelled corporation tax haul as global tax-reform efforts move up a gear in 2021, according to economists.”

It also says that 77% of all corporation tax receipts came from multinationals in 2019 so I don’t see how the media are reporting that we will only lose €2 billion from these tax reforms.

I really don’t see where the funds will come from for the state to continue buying, leasing etc. homes past July this year IMO

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-ip-move-highlights-irish-corporation-tax-risks-1.4446557

Edit: apologies, the article was already linked and both using it to back up opposing viewpoints

My guess is unlike yourself the media nor the government believe that this tax reform is going to see every single multinational job instantly head to eastern europe and our MNC corp tax intake immediately drop to zero.

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

I don't need an innate understanding of the tax code to understand that Google moving IP from Bermuda to the US is not a good example to give as an example of IP moving out of Ireland.

On the face of it it’s not , but the underlying structure much like the Facebook example would suggest otherwise.

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

On the face of it it’s not , but the underlying structure much like the Facebook example would suggest otherwise.

Ok well, no interest in a tit for tat on the face of it and suggesting otherwise, i’ll just answer your original question more directly:

Cyrus wrote: »

Most of it moved a few years back didn’t it ?

No, you’ve claimed this a few times and you are wrong.

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

Ok well, no interest in a tit for tat on the face of it and suggesting otherwise, i’ll just answer your original question more directly:



No, you’ve claimed this a few times and you are wrong.

I’ll concede my statement that most of it moved was inaccurate.

Geuze

schmittel wrote: »

According to Coffey (and the TAXE Committee of the European Parliament) that IP was actually in the Cayman Islands, not Ireland. Articles suggesting otherwise look like lazy journalism.

Coffey is more informed than most journalists.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/

Hubertj

Tenant promises to pay compensation after removing rafters from house
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/tenant-promises-to-pay-compensation-after-removing-rafters-from-house-1.4536528

This is mad stuff altogether. Homelessness is too good for some people. I suppose it falls to the state to house them?

Wanderer78

Hubertj wrote:

This is mad stuff altogether. Homelessness is too good for some people. I suppose it falls to the state to house them?

Yup, our housing situation is so serious, this is what some will do to try garantee this critical need

cruizer101

Hubertj wrote: »

Tenant promises to pay compensation after removing rafters from house

He built up rental debts of 9,000 and did 16,000 worth of damage to the house :eek:
No wonder landlords are leaving the market, pr**ks like him giving a bad name to good tenants.

Now his name is in the paper so no one else will want to rent to him so likely the state is going to have to house him.

Villa05

Hubertj wrote:

Tenant promises to pay compensation after removing rafters from house via The Irish Times

Did you see the Examiner
Landlord evicts tennant and takes over tennants cannibis grow house he had set up in the property

Hubertj

Villa05 wrote: »

Did you see the Examiner
Landlord evicts tennant and takes over tennants cannibis grow house he had set up in the property

It’s behind paywall so I couldn’t read entire article. Did landlord evict because of grow houses?

Villa05

Hubertj wrote:

It’s behind paywall so I couldn’t read entire article. Did landlord evict because of grow houses?

Yes, it was in a shipping container on the property. Ll took over that business

PropQueries

A FF TD has an opinion piece in the Sunday Business Post (free to read) where he says:

"Ireland is becoming uncompetitive and is losing business to other countries as a direct consequence of our lack of housing and key infrastructure."

In my mind, this is just another signal that they're trying to get the public used to the idea of increased taxes in the near future. It's even more interesting in that he's the youngest member of the Dail and his FF colleague is in charge of housing. I'm assuming all such articles must be pre-approved by HQ, so they must have some plan to reduce house prices in the very near future IMO

Link to Business Post article (free to read) here: https://www.businesspost.ie/tax/james-oconnor-ireland-could-turn-a-higher-rate-of-corporate-tax-into-a-win-win-723c66b0

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

A FF TD has an opinion piece in the Sunday Business Post (free to read) where he says:

"Ireland is becoming uncompetitive and is losing business to other countries as a direct consequence of our lack of housing and key infrastructure."

In my mind, this is just another signal that they're trying to get the public used to the idea of increased taxes in the near future. It's even more interesting in that he's the youngest member of the Dail and his FF colleague is in charge of housing. I'm assuming all such articles must be pre-approved by HQ, so they must have some plan to reduce house prices in the very near future IMO

Link to Business Post article (free to read) here: https://www.businesspost.ie/tax/james-oconnor-ireland-could-turn-a-higher-rate-of-corporate-tax-into-a-win-win-723c66b0

Where does it say anything about raising taxes??? Will you stop making things up.

Its like me putting the below link up on here and saying we are going to be flooded with FDI so there will be absolutely no issues for Ireland financially going forward. Your taking one opinion by one random person that does not even mention taxes and use it to extrapolate that we are in for an increase in taxes to fund housing. Talk about manipulating the facts to suit your own agenda.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0314/1203988-stripe-to-create-1-000-new-jobs-in-dublin/

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

A FF TD has an opinion piece in the Sunday Business Post (free to read) where he says:

"Ireland is becoming uncompetitive and is losing business to other countries as a direct consequence of our lack of housing and key infrastructure."

In my mind, this is just another signal that they're trying to get the public used to the idea of increased taxes in the near future. It's even more interesting in that he's the youngest member of the Dail and his FF colleague is in charge of housing. I'm assuming all such articles must be pre-approved by HQ, so they must have some plan to reduce house prices in the very near future IMO

Link to Business Post article (free to read) here: https://www.businesspost.ie/tax/james-oconnor-ireland-could-turn-a-higher-rate-of-corporate-tax-into-a-win-win-723c66b0

we are also uncompetitive as our marginal rates of tax are too high, maybe it is a signal for decreasing taxes?

timmyntc

Cyrus wrote: »

we are also uncompetitive as our marginal rates of tax are too high, maybe it is a signal for decreasing taxes?

In a perfect world..

However MNCs only care about getting the staff - so long as they can get a roof over their heads, it doesnt matter what their quality of life is. While tax rates will stop us from getting the best and brightest coming here, most roles will get filled provided they can find a place to live.

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

A FF TD has an opinion piece in the Sunday Business Post (free to read) where he says:

"Ireland is becoming uncompetitive and is losing business to other countries as a direct consequence of our lack of housing and key infrastructure."

In my mind, this is just another signal that they're trying to get the public used to the idea of increased taxes in the near future. It's even more interesting in that he's the youngest member of the Dail and his FF colleague is in charge of housing. I'm assuming all such articles must be pre-approved by HQ, so they must have some plan to reduce house prices in the very near future IMO

Link to Business Post article (free to read) here: https://www.businesspost.ie/tax/james-oconnor-ireland-could-turn-a-higher-rate-of-corporate-tax-into-a-win-win-723c66b0

Cyrus wrote: »

we are also uncompetitive as our marginal rates of tax are too high, maybe it is a signal for decreasing taxes?

This is absolutely the biggest issue with regards to competitiveness and people like props think its a good idea to increase taxes. We pay income taxes here at a very high rate and at a low income level when compared to the rest of the EU. This needs to change to be more competitive any money looked at spending on being more competitive should be directed here.

PropQueries

fliball123 wrote: »

Where does it say anything about raising taxes??? Will you stop making things up.

Its like me putting the below link up on and saying we are going to be flooded with FDI so there will be absolutely no issues for Ireland financially going forward. Your taking one opinion by one random person that does not even mention taxes and use it to extrapolate that we are in for an increase in taxes to fund housing.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0314/1203988-stripe-to-create-1-000-new-jobs-in-dublin/

Because he's on about investing in infrastructure while we are likely going to lose out from the global tax reforms.

We have the one of the highest (if not the highest) debt per capita rates in the EU. We obviously can't borrow much more to pay for this "infrastructure", so that means higher taxation. But it obviously won't be used to fund "infrastructure" IMO

And given that Biden's infrastructure plan is to be primarily paid from increased taxation revenues (on multinationals) and not borrowing, the world has already changed from deficit spending to living within our means.

Unfortunately, we're going to be hit from both sides i.e. declining corporation tax revenues (which will go to the states and other big economies to fund their infrastructure investment bill) and higher taxation at home just to fund existing day-to-day spending IMO

They can dress it up anyway they like. It's lose-lose on our side IMO

fliball123

timmyntc wrote: »

In a perfect world..

However MNCs only care about getting the staff - so long as they can get a roof over their heads, it doesnt matter what their quality of life is. While tax rates will stop us from getting the best and brightest coming here, most roles will get filled provided they can find a place to live.

That is not true there was lots of stories about high up positions in the PS over the last number of years that they could not get the people in for the salary (after tax)..It is a hindrance to anyone coming to work here. On a personal level we have had people turn down jobs from place like France and the UK due to the taxation levels here.

PropQueries

fliball123 wrote: »

people like props think its a good idea to increase taxes.

Don't believe I ever said I was in favour of it and obviously I'm not. What I may have said is that it's inevitable given the mismanagement of the Government revenues over the past 5 years and the state always looks after it's own pay and pensions first IMO

If that means taxing to the hilt whatever jobs are left post-Biden tax reforms, that is what they will do IMO

mcsean2163

PropQueries wrote: »

A FF TD has an opinion piece in the Sunday Business Post (free to read) where he says:

"Ireland is becoming uncompetitive and is losing business to other countries as a direct consequence of our lack of housing and key infrastructure."

In my mind, this is just another signal that they're trying to get the public used to the idea of increased taxes in the near future. It's even more interesting in that he's the youngest member of the Dail and his FF colleague is in charge of housing. I'm assuming all such articles must be pre-approved by HQ, so they must have some plan to reduce house prices in the very near future IMO

Link to Business Post article (free to read) here: https://www.businesspost.ie/tax/james-oconnor-ireland-could-turn-a-higher-rate-of-corporate-tax-into-a-win-win-723c66b0

I hope you're right. Slowing government house purchases and a vacancy tax would have a big impact on the market. When someone buys and sells the old property becomes available, that doesn't happen when the state buys.

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

Because he's on about investing in infrastructure while we are likely going to lose out from the global tax reforms.

We have the one of the highest (if not the highest) debt per capita rates in the EU. We obviously can't borrow much more to pay for this "infrastructure", so that means higher taxation. But it obviously won't be used to fund "infrastructure" IMO

And given that Biden's infrastructure plan is to be primarily paid from increased taxation revenues (on multinationals) and not borrowing, the world has already changed from deficit spending to living within our means.

Unfortunately, we're going to be hit from both sides i.e. declining corporation tax revenues (which will go to the states and other big economies to fund their infrastructure investment bill) and higher taxation at home just to fund existing day-to-day spending IMO

They can dress it up anyway they like. It's lose-lose on our side IMO

Lets see what the tax reforms are like (if they come in)
Lets see how the economy is after covid
Lets see what the unemployment rate is after covid
Lets see what the deficit is after covid (if there is one)

Only after Covid can you even start to look at finances in this country any of your opinion is pure speculation that is an absolutely blinkered one way look at how Ireland will be, its all doom and gloom
80% property price drops
all our jobs going to Eastern Europe
All MNCs packing their bags and heading back to the US.
More taxes on an already over taxes middle class.

Can we just going forward assume your going to look at things in the most outrageously negative way for Ireland's future and be done with it. You keep stating your opinions as something that will happen. Time will tell if your right but if you are right about your predictions then property prices and building houses will be way down the list of problems Ireland will have to solve..

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Don't believe I ever said I was in favour of it and obviously I'm not. What I may have said is that it's inevitable given the mismanagement of the Government revenues over the past 5 years and the state always looks after it's own pay and pensions first IMO

If that means taxing to the hilt whatever jobs are left post-Biden tax reforms, that is what they will do IMO

itll be a waste of time in your version of the world, there wont be any jobs,

uncle joe will take all the lolly.

Browney7

fliball123 wrote: »

This is absolutely the biggest issue with regards to competitiveness and people like props think its a good idea to increase taxes. We pay income taxes here at a very high rate and at a low income level when compared to the rest of the EU. This needs to change to be more competitive any money looked at spending on being more competitive should be directed here.

To be fair to props, he said taxes which you've then inferred to be "income taxes". I agree with you that the income tax lemon doesn't have much juice left to give. Indeed politicians in debates are fixated on "income" taxes.

Whether the Irish government will move towards more asset or wealth taxes remains to be seen but such wealth tends to be concentrated in older people (who tend to vote) who paid income taxes all their lives but now have much lower incomes. CGT is already high. Consumption taxes like VAT are also high. It's inevitable there will be cuts to spend or increase in taxes somewhere unless the ECB keeps print money to finance an ongoing deficit for us.

My guess is the government will raid the pension pots again as low hanging fruit.

Tough choices ahead no doubt but how that feeds into property prices.....no idea

PropQueries

Cyrus wrote: »

itll be a waste of time in your version of the world, there wont be any jobs,

uncle joe will take all the lolly.

The taxes have already started. It's just people haven't noticed them for some reason. For example, carbon taxes are going to be increasing by the year and according to the Irish Independent this week:

"one thing that we do know is that the tax has raised around €4bn since it was first introduced and many hard-pressed Irish consumers will be asking themselves where that money has gone and what environmental initiatives have actually been achieved since the tax was first introduced."

Next will be even higher health insurance premiums, property taxes, income taxes, higher charges on any services that the public require from the state (e.g. schools, colleges, bus fares, road tolls in the cities etc. etc.) and then even higher income taxes IMO

Link to Irish Independent article on carbon taxes here: https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/consumers-warned-to-stock-up-on-heating-fuels-ahead-of-carbon-tax-rise-40307953.html

JimmyVik

fliball123 wrote: »

That is not true there was lots of stories about high up positions in the PS over the last number of years that they could not get the people in for the salary (after tax)..It is a hindrance to anyone coming to work here. On a personal level we have had people turn down jobs from place like France and the UK due to the taxation levels here.

I just stopped doing overtime because its not worth it to me at the tax rate.
The company keep asking me to do it, but i couldnt be bothered.
Then the year before last I took 4 month parental leave, because i figured, it not that much to lose because of the tax i would have paid on the salary anyway.
Tax is so fcuking penal in this country when it comes to doing any overtime etc when you are already in the 40% (and dont forget PRSI and USC too) bracket.

DataDude

Cyrus wrote: »

we are also uncompetitive as our marginal rates of tax are too high, maybe it is a signal for decreasing taxes?

I strongly strongly agree that our income taxes are too high. That said, pretty much every opposition party referred to increased income taxes on higher earners in their manifesto.
Fianna Fail not pushing for it, but also don't think they'd oppose it. Think Fine Gael is the last line of defence against it and honestly see it as inevitable that we get higher income taxes if Fine Gael aren't part of the next coalition. Scary thought, but can't see any other outcome .

fliball123

DataDude wrote: »

I strongly strongly agree that our income taxes are too high. That said, pretty much every opposition party referred to increased income taxes on higher earners in their manifesto.
Fianna Fail not pushing for it, but also don't think they'd oppose it. Think Fine Gael is the last line of defence against it and honestly see it as inevitable that we get higher income taxes if Fine Gael aren't part of the next coalition. Scary thought, but can't see any other outcome .

Surely they have learned after 08, top earners will just leave it happened after 08 and with the new way of working and not having to be in a physical location to do a lot of jobs upping income taxes on the middle and upper classes will actually see a drop in overall income tax take.

Cyrus

DataDude wrote: »

I strongly strongly agree that our income taxes are too high. That said, pretty much every opposition party referred to increased income taxes on higher earners in their manifesto.
Fianna Fail not pushing for it, but also don't think they'd oppose it. Think Fine Gael is the last line of defence against it and honestly see it as inevitable that we get higher income taxes if Fine Gael aren't part of the next coalition. Scary thought, but can't see any other outcome .

its seen as politically acceptable as to someone who earns 25k, someone on 40k makes a fortune and so on and so on, but i think it is a huge negative in our ability to attract and also retain top level executives. Imagine what Francesca McDonagh is thinking, comp capped at 500k with 460 odd taxed at 52%, she will be back at HSBC or some other bank in europe as soon as she can now that she has ticked the CEO box.

SmokyMo

PropQueries wrote: »

Because he's on about investing in infrastructure while we are likely going to lose out from the global tax reforms.

We have the one of the highest (if not the highest) debt per capita rates in the EU. We obviously can't borrow much more to pay for this "infrastructure", so that means higher taxation. But it obviously won't be used to fund "infrastructure" IMO

And given that Biden's infrastructure plan is to be primarily paid from increased taxation revenues (on multinationals) and not borrowing, the world has already changed from deficit spending to living within our means.

Unfortunately, we're going to be hit from both sides i.e. declining corporation tax revenues (which will go to the states and other big economies to fund their infrastructure investment bill) and higher taxation at home just to fund existing day-to-day spending IMO

They can dress it up anyway they like. It's lose-lose on our side IMO

I don't understand why do you think its hard to borrow? In fact everything shows that it is very easy to do it right now, and there is massive appetitive for investors to buy debt, even at negative rates?
Ireland should be borrowing to the max right now to sort its myriad of deep ongoing crises.
Unfortunately finance department is run by illiterate charlatans without an ounce of critical thinking.

DataDude

DataDude wrote: »

Personally think it's worth about €900k given the size of the site. €200k refurb and you've got something pretty special with plenty of room to extend if needed. Expect it will go higher, I haven't followed up since to find out where it's at now.

Here's another belated April Fools day asking price. It's absolutely not in Foxrock, but still...the estate agents today seem to think it's 2020 again!!

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/10-beech-park-grove-foxrock-dublin-18/4488539

For anyone interested, as it was discussed a bit at the time. This house in Foxrock sold at €1.3m in 6 days. Really do wonder why estate agents insist on comically undervaluing properties. Seems like a waste of everyone's time!

SmokyMo

Cyrus wrote: »

its seen as politically acceptable as to someone who earns 25k, someone on 40k makes a fortune and so on and so on, but i think it is a huge negative in our ability to attract and also retain top level executives. Imagine what Francesca McDonagh is thinking, comp capped at 500k with 460 odd taxed at 52%, she will be back at HSBC or some other bank in europe as soon as she can now that she has ticked the CEO box.

Disagree. There is no evidence that by increasing salaries you will attract best talent.
Funny that you mention HSBC who get fined nearly every month for breaking various laws, from laundering money for cartel, to backwashing billions for oligarchs. Place must be run by top talent.

DataDude

fliball123 wrote: »

Surely they have learned after 08, top earners will just leave it happened after 08 and with the new way of working and not having to be in a physical location to do a lot of jobs upping income taxes on the middle and upper classes will actually see a drop in overall income tax take.

Cyrus wrote: »

its seen as politically acceptable as to someone who earns 25k, someone on 40k makes a fortune and so on and so on, but i think it is a huge negative in our ability to attract and also retain top level executives. Imagine what Francesca McDonagh is thinking, comp capped at 500k with 460 odd taxed at 52%, she will be back at HSBC or some other bank in europe as soon as she can now that she has ticked the CEO box.

Agree completely, its the easiest thing in the world to declare people over a certain threshold rich, propose higher taxes and everyone below that point goes "yay".

It's stupid, and I'm sure politicians are aware of the Laffer Curve...but has politics ever been about doing the right thing over the popular thing? I don't hold any hopes that any future governments will be different in that regard.

PropQueries

DataDude wrote: »

Agree completely, its the easiest thing in the world to declare people over a certain threshold rich, propose higher taxes and everyone below that point goes "yay".

It's stupid, and I'm sure politicians are aware of the Laffer Curve...but has politics ever been about doing the right thing over the popular thing? I don't hold any hopes that any future governments will be different in that regard.

I'm sure they all know. And, that's why the USA, UK, Germany etc. now believe that taxing the companies "based" in other countries (incl. Ireland) is a better way of funding their budgets than taxing their own people and small local businesses.

Question is, who can we tax?