2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

JimmyVik

What you have are housing minister after housing minister wrecking the whole housing economy, just to be seen to be doing something.
Once the current one has wrecked it some more, off he goes and in comes the next one.
This goes all the way back to Simon Coveny. He started the wrecking ball rolling and each one since one has made it worse.
But they just all hand the problem off to the next guy and walk away.

JimmyVik

Hubertj wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/property/commercial/arid-40240229.html

Good news for commercial property but also the jobs front in the cork region. Further demonstrates apples commitment to Irish operations. Also strange they would continue to invest and expand Irish operations when a tax apocalypse is due to hit Ireland. Could it be they have already factored tax changes into their plans? Would large MNCs with dedicated tax teams have the forethought to factor this into their future plans? Amazing thought. I fear they haven’t checked board.ie and are making a terrible terrible mistake.

More likely they are fully aware that there will be, as usual, no change in the tax situation. And even if there was, its still good enough for them.

awec

I see that British overseas territories are officially the top 3 worst tax havens.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/09/uk-overseas-territories-top-list-of-worlds-leading-tax-havens

I wonder if Rishi Sunak's new focus on raising taxes, which we hear is going to be trend-setting for worldwide tax increases on business, will include their overseas territories? Does anyone want to take a guess?

P.S. Ireland doesn't even make the top 10. Maybe an option for us is to double Ireland's corpo tax rate and designate the Aran Islands an offshore territory instead?

Villa05

awec wrote:

You are overthinking it. Most people who want a house don't give a crap about any of this.

The art of a con job is to make your victim feel you are benefitting them when in reality you are fleecing them and their country

This is engrained in a system developed by the government of that same country

Think about that for 5 seconds

hometruths

awec wrote: »

I see that British overseas territories are officially the top 3 worst tax havens.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/09/uk-overseas-territories-top-list-of-worlds-leading-tax-havens

I wonder if Rishi Sunak's new focus on raising taxes, which we hear is going to be trend-setting for worldwide tax increases on business, will include their overseas territories? Does anyone want to take a guess?

P.S. Ireland doesn't even make the top 10. Maybe an option for us is to double Ireland's corpo tax rate and designate the Aran Islands an offshore territory instead?

We're 11th.

Corporate Tax Haven Index ranking: 11
Financial Secrecy Index ranking: 29
Tax lost each year to tax havens: $14,462,658,146
Tax loss inflicted each year on other countries: $15,830,940,779

fliball123

schmittel wrote: »

We're 11th.

and Germany , U.K, France and the U.S are all in the top 25 . Whats your point?

Villa05

Timing belt wrote:

You are missing the point..the investors in Reits will end up paying the same tax as a landlord at present.

Timing belt wrote:

P.s. just to be clear I post that property has an attractive yield at present (for any investor whether it is private landlords or funds/reits) and have never posted about returns from any fund or REIT.

Investors in a manufacturing company or service provider pay tax on profits/divideds. These products and services are taxed using the VAT system. Is this double/triple taxation? This is a quiet common and internationally accepted form of commerce

Seperatly many of these reits / vulture funds were invited in from abroad. Will foreign investors/shareholders be taxed in their home country thus leaving 0 contribution to the Irish state that provide essential services to those properties from people who do pay tax in Ireland?

cnocbui

Hubertj wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/property/commercial/arid-40240229.html

Good news for commercial property but also the jobs front in the cork region. Further demonstrates apples commitment to Irish operations. Also strange they would continue to invest and expand Irish operations when a tax apocalypse is due to hit Ireland. Could it be they have already factored tax changes into their plans? Would large MNCs with dedicated tax teams have the forethought to factor this into their future plans? Amazing thought. I fear they haven’t checked board.ie and are making a terrible terrible mistake.

They moved the tax focus to Jersey:

Apple moved profits to tax haven Jersey after Ireland crackdown: reports

November 6, 2017 / 5:36 PM / CBS/AP

After drawing scrutiny for its use of tax loopholes in Ireland in 2013, Apple (AAPL) came up with another plan: find another tax haven that wasn't in the spotlight.

The technology giant subsequently revamped its overseas subsidiaries to take advantage of favorable tax laws on the European island of Jersey, according to the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists and The New York Times.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/apple-moved-profits-to-tax-haven-jersey-after-ireland-crackdown/

Lying stunts, having previously claimed they weren't in Ireland for tax rorting.

cnocbui

fliball123 wrote: »

and Germany , U.K, France and the U.S are all in the top 25 . Whats your point?

Ireland is the worst offender:

Study claims State shelters more multinational profits than the entire Caribbean
Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 04:35

Ireland is the biggest “tax haven” in the world used by multinationals to shelter profits, according to a new study by economists from the United States and Denmark.

The research from academics at the University California, Berkeley and the University of Copenhagen estimates that foreign multinationals shifted $106 billion (€90 billion) of corporate profits to Ireland in 2015.

This was more than all of the islands of the Caribbean combined ($97 billion/€83 billion), and well ahead of Singapore ($70 billion/€60 billion), Switzerland ($58 billion/€49 billion) and the Netherlands ($57 billion/€48 billion), according to the researchers.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-is-the-world-s-biggest-corporate-tax-haven-say-academics-1.3528401

If I were a dictator running the EU, I would have turfed Ireland out, not only for this, but for all it's other cute-hoor anti single market practices.

fliball123

cnocbui wrote: »

Ireland is the worst offender:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-is-the-world-s-biggest-corporate-tax-haven-say-academics-1.3528401

If I were a dictator running the EU, I would have turfed Ireland out, not only for this, but for all it's other cute-hoor anti single market practices.

Well hang on there are 10 above them, also if all of them are on this list it means they are all doing it in some capacity.

awec

schmittel wrote: »

We're 11th.

I'm sure we can get ourselves down the list a bit by adopting the same approach as the likes of the UK.

awec

cnocbui wrote: »

Ireland is the worst offender:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-is-the-world-s-biggest-corporate-tax-haven-say-academics-1.3528401

If I were a dictator running the EU, I would have turfed Ireland out, not only for this, but for all it's other cute-hoor anti single market practices.

The British Virgin Islands are the biggest enabler of tax abuse. British territories are the 3 worst, and they have a 4th (Jersey) in the top 10. It's in the link I posted earlier.

This is one of Ireland's problems. Unlike the Brits, the french, the US etc, we don't have offshore territories / city-states to obfuscate our tax story.

Galwayhurl

jill_valentine wrote: »

In a major urban centre, I believe it should be possible for a single median earner to purchase a one bedroom or studio flat within reasonable commuting distance of employment.

Rurally, that's probably a lot more variable, but honestly I think bang for buck kinda manages itself out there because the distance from services etc are the flipside of living in something standalone, with more space.

I recognise that single earners and units of that size are not an economically appealing market for most commercial developers, but on a social level there's clearly an urgent need for them. Social good is the government's lookout, it should be an obvious ambition to engineer circumstances where those units get built, rather than just... I don't know what the Gov idea is, hoping everyone on the homelessness list marries each other?

To add to this, I think that there should be no 10% social housing quotas in the city centre developments. People who work in the cities should be able to live in them. Put the social housing in the outer suburbs/commuter towns.

It's madness that we have people living in social housing in the city centre and not working, while workers have to commute an hour or 2 each way from way out because that's all they can afford.

Yes I'm aware that many social housing tenants do work, but many don't.

HansKroenke

Hubertj wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/property/commercial/arid-40240229.html

Good news for commercial property but also the jobs front in the cork region. Further demonstrates apples commitment to Irish operations. Also strange they would continue to invest and expand Irish operations when a tax apocalypse is due to hit Ireland. Could it be they have already factored tax changes into their plans? Would large MNCs with dedicated tax teams have the forethought to factor this into their future plans? Amazing thought. I fear they haven’t checked board.ie and are making a terrible terrible mistake.

They haven't said what the purpose of the new office space is for, e.g. Indian staff to handle customer service for the Indian market. Is it for new employees to import into Ireland or is the plan to hoover up employees already base in the region? It would be nice to see an accompanying headline that an apartment development is also being funded as part of the job creation. While the announcement is good news for the commercial sector it is bad news for the residential sector.

HansKroenke

awec wrote: »

The British Virgin Islands are the biggest enabler of tax abuse. British territories are the 3 worst, and they have a 4th (Jersey) in the top 10. It's in the link I posted earlier.

This is one of Ireland's problems. Unlike the Brits, the french, the US etc, we don't have offshore territories / city-states to obfuscate our tax story.

The French and Germans use Luxembourg, Switzerland and Monaco for their dirty business, the UK use, as you have noted, their own hollow countries such as the BVI, Isle of Man for those untouchable family trusts etc. Cyprus for the non-EU Turks and Russians to gain EU access. Ireland cannot be touched without the larger nations also closing down their own little havens like those mentioned above, which of course they won't do.

timmyntc

HansKroenke wrote: »

The French and Germans use Luxembourg, Switzerland and Monaco for their dirty business, the UK use, as you have noted, their own hollow countries such as the BVI, Isle of Man for those untouchable family trusts etc. Cyprus for the non-EU Turks and Russians to gain EU access. Ireland cannot be touched without the larger nations also closing down their own little havens like those mentioned above, which of course they won't do.

Ireland should close the loopholes, but first declare the Aran Islands as an overseas territory.

PropQueries

HansKroenke wrote: »

They haven't said what the purpose of the new office space is for, e.g. Indian staff to handle customer service for the Indian market. Is it for new employees to import into Ireland or is the plan to hoover up employees already base in the region? It would be nice to see an accompanying headline that an apartment development is also being funded as part of the job creation. While the announcement is good news for the commercial sector it is bad news for the residential sector.

Hold on!

The article states:

"Apple is this month closing out a deal for enough space for 350 to 400 additional employees initially, at Horgan’s Quay, in the top three floors of building No 1. "

But the article also states:

"tech giant Apple, which already employs c 6,000 in the city at two other locations."

So, with post-covid fast approaching (define fast, some say well into next year), won't office spaces need to be reconfigured for more space between workers?

So, when the article says "enough space for 350 to 400", couldn't it just as easily mean a reduction in the overall number of employees when the additional space for social distancing is implemented post-covid?

cnocbui

awec wrote: »

The British Virgin Islands are the biggest enabler of tax abuse. British territories are the 3 worst, and they have a 4th (Jersey) in the top 10. It's in the link I posted earlier.

This is one of Ireland's problems. Unlike the Brits, the french, the US etc, we don't have offshore territories / city-states to obfuscate our tax story.

I guess it depends on the exact criterian and exactly who is compiling the report:



https://www.consultancy.eu/news/1641/europe-home-to-6-of-the-globes-top-10-tax-havens-ireland-tops-list

awec

PropQueries wrote: »

Hold on!

The article states:

"Apple is this month closing out a deal for enough space for 350 to 400 additional employees initially, at Horgan’s Quay, in the top three floors of building No 1. "

But the article also states:

"tech giant Apple, which already employs c 6,000 in the city at two other locations."

So, with post-covid fast approaching (define fast, some say well into next year), won't office spaces need to be reconfigured for more space between workers?

So, when the article says "enough space for 350 to 400", couldn't it just as easily mean a reduction in the overall number of employees when the additional space for social distancing is implemented post-covid?

Why would it?

Social distancing will not be a thing anymore once people are vaccinated.

PropQueries

awec wrote: »

Why would it?

Social distancing will not be a thing anymore once people are vaccinated.

Whether the vaccine for covid works or not, social distancing in office environments will be a thing going forward. They've already alluded to it with the massive reduction in flu etc.

awec

PropQueries wrote: »

Whether the vaccine for covid works or not, social distancing in office environments will be a thing going forward. They've already alluded to it with the massive reduction in flu etc.

Nonsense. You think people will be sitting 2metres apart in offices from now on?

Can you post a link to a source that suggests offices are to remain socially distant even when the rest of society has returned to something pretty close to normal?

hometruths

fliball123 wrote: »

and Germany , U.K, France and the U.S are all in the top 25 . Whats your point?

My point is we're a tax haven, and I have no complaints about that. It has been a fantastically successful strategy by successive governments.

PropQueries

awec wrote: »

Nonsense. You think people will be sitting 2metres apart in offices from now on?

Can you post a link to a source that suggests offices are to remain socially distant even when the rest of society has returned to something pretty close to normal?

Dr. Tony Holohan said back in June:

"It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past, because of this disease and that will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."

Basically if this is recommended post-covid, companies will want to minimise the chances of one of their employees giving everyone else in the office a cold or cough IMO

Link to article here: https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/dr-tony-holohan-says-one-22235866

awec

PropQueries wrote: »

Dr. Tony Holohan said back in June:

"It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past, because of this disease and that will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."

Basically if this is recommended post-covid, companies will want to minimise the chances of one of their employees giving everyone else in the office a cold or cough IMO

Link to article here: https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/dr-tony-holohan-says-one-22235866

Yes, people will no longer go to work when they are sick.

This article does not mention anything to do with continued social distancing post vaccination.

PropQueries

awec wrote: »

Yes, people will no longer go to work when they are sick.

This article does not mention anything to do with continued social distancing post vaccination.

Actually, you're probably right

Graham

Mod Note

please take the COVID discussion to the appropriate forum.

Do not reply to this post.

Geuze

schmittel wrote: »

My point is we're a tax haven, and I have no complaints about that. It has been a fantastically successful strategy by successive governments.

We are not a tax haven.

What Makes a Country a Tax Haven?


https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/What-makes-a-country-a-tax-haven.pdf

Abstract: This paper explores the issue of tax havens and tax competition. The recent intensified debate on tax havens is summarised, as is the important work of the OECD, the EU and the G-20 in this area and the ongoing research on the economic effects of tax havens.

Ireland does not meet any of the OECD criteria for being a tax haven but because of its 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate and the open nature of the Irish economy, Ireland has on a few occasions been labelled a tax haven.

There are three primary reasons for this identified, each addressed in the paper: a failure to distinguish between legitimate and abusive transfer pricing; a misunderstanding of the role and regulation of IFSC; and a dated but influential academic paper from 1994 that incorrectly
included Ireland in a list of tax havens, based on a reason that has long since lost any validity.

hometruths

Geuze wrote: »

We are not a tax haven.

What Makes a Country a Tax Haven?


https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/What-makes-a-country-a-tax-haven.pdf

Abstract: This paper explores the issue of tax havens and tax competition. The recent intensified debate on tax havens is summarised, as is the important work of the OECD, the EU and the G-20 in this area and the ongoing research on the economic effects of tax havens.

Ireland does not meet any of the OECD criteria for being a tax haven but because of its 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate and the open nature of the Irish economy, Ireland has on a few occasions been labelled a tax haven.

There are three primary reasons for this identified, each addressed in the paper: a failure to distinguish between legitimate and abusive transfer pricing; a misunderstanding of the role and regulation of IFSC; and a dated but influential academic paper from 1994 that incorrectly
included Ireland in a list of tax havens, based on a reason that has long since lost any validity.

So you’re saying we are not a tax haven according to our own Dept of Finance and Revenue?!

Plenty of others think we are a tax haven:

Ireland has been labelled a tax haven, or a corporate tax haven (or Conduit OFC), by:

The main § Leaders in tax haven research:[38][39] James R. Hines Jr. (1994, 2007, 2010),[31][40][41] Dhammika Dharmapala (2008 and 2009),[42][43] and Gabriel Zucman (2013, 2014 and 2018);[4][32][34][44][45]
Other important § Leaders in tax haven research:[38][39] Joel Slemrod (2006),[46] and Mihir A. Desai (2006);[47]
Notable academic studies by the University of Amsterdam's CORPNET in 2017 (Conduit and Sink OFCs)[27][28] and by the International Monetary Fund journal in 2018;[48]
Various academic tax-policy centres in Germany,[49] the United Kingdom,[50] the United Nations,[51] and Ireland itself;[52]
The three main non-governmental tax organisations: Tax Justice Network,[33][53][54] the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy,[55][56] and Oxfam;[57][58]
The two U.S. Congressional investigations into global tax havens: 2008 by the Government Accountability Office,[59] and 2015 by the Congressional Research Service.[60]
The 2013 Levin–McCain U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigation ("PSI") into tax avoidance activities of U.S. multinationals by using "profit shifting" BEPS tools;[61][62][63]
The books on tax havens in the last decade, with at least 300 citations on Google Scholar: Tax Havens: How Globalization Really Works, by Ronen Palan and Richard Murphy from 2010,[36] Treasure Islands: Tax Havens and the Men Who Stole the World, by Nicholas Shaxson from 2011, and The Hidden Wealth of Nations: The Scourge of Tax Havens, by Gabriel Zucman from 2015;
The main financial media: New York Times,[64] Bloomberg News,[65] the Wall Street Journal,[66] Forbes,[67] the Financial Times,[68] The Economist,[69] the Washington Post,[70] and Fortune;[71]
Some leading economists;[72][73][74][75][76]
G20 economy, Brazil, who blacklisted Ireland in September 2016;[12][77] and potentially the U.S. State of Oregon whose State IRS recommended blacklisting Ireland in 2017.[78]
The European Parliament in March 2019 voted to accept a report by 505 votes in favour to 63 against, recommending Ireland, as one several "EU tax havens", be included on the official EU Commission list of tax havens.[o][80][81][82]
Ireland has also been labelled related terms to being a tax haven:

In Germany, the related term tax dumping has been used against Ireland by German political leaders;[83][84]
The Financial Stability Forum ("FSF") and the International Monetary Fund ("IMF") listed Ireland as an offshore financial centre in June 2000;[33][34][35][36]
Bloomberg, in an article on PwC Ireland's managing partner Feargal O'Rourke, used the term tax avoidance hub;[85]
The 2013 U.S Senate PSI Levin–McCain investigation into U.S. multinational tax activity, called Ireland the holy grail of tax avoidance;[86][87]
As the OECD has never listed any of its 35 members as tax havens, Ireland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Switzerland are called OECD tax havens;[88]
As the EU Commission has never formally listed any of its 28 members as tax havens, Ireland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Belgium are called EU tax havens.[89][90]
The term tax haven has been used by the Irish mainstream media and leading Irish commentators.[91][92][93][94][70][95] Irish elected TDs have asked the question: "Is Ireland a tax haven?".[96][97] A search of Dáil Éireann debates lists 871 references to the term.[98] Some established Irish political parties accuse the Irish State of tax haven activities.[99][100][101]

The international community at this point is concerned about the nature of tax havens, and Ireland in particular is viewed with a considerable amount of suspicion in the international community for doing what is considered - at the very least - on the boundaries of acceptable practices.

— Ashoka Mody, Ex-IMF mission chief to Ireland, "Former IMF official warns Ireland to prepare for end to tax regime", 21 June 2018.[102]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_as_a_tax_haven

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

MacronvFrugals

Geuze wrote: »

We are not a tax haven.

What Makes a Country a Tax Haven?


https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/What-makes-a-country-a-tax-haven.pdf

Abstract: This paper explores the issue of tax havens and tax competition. The recent intensified debate on tax havens is summarised, as is the important work of the OECD, the EU and the G-20 in this area and the ongoing research on the economic effects of tax havens.

Ireland does not meet any of the OECD criteria for being a tax haven but because of its 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate and the open nature of the Irish economy, Ireland has on a few occasions been labelled a tax haven.

There are three primary reasons for this identified, each addressed in the paper: a failure to distinguish between legitimate and abusive transfer pricing; a misunderstanding of the role and regulation of IFSC; and a dated but influential academic paper from 1994 that incorrectly
included Ireland in a list of tax havens, based on a reason that has long since lost any validity.

Why would the DOF and Revenue come out calling Ireland a tax haven?


The EU voted calling us a tax haven in January, also the UN's Special Rapporteur said 'Nobody believes Ireland is not a tax haven'

We're at peak green jersey talk even arguing this is not true and thats not negating the transformative effects these policies have had on Ireland.

hometruths

Hubertj wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/property/commercial/arid-40240229.html

Good news for commercial property but also the jobs front in the cork region. Further demonstrates apples commitment to Irish operations. Also strange they would continue to invest and expand Irish operations when a tax apocalypse is due to hit Ireland. Could it be they have already factored tax changes into their plans? Would large MNCs with dedicated tax teams have the forethought to factor this into their future plans? Amazing thought. I fear they haven’t checked board.ie and are making a terrible terrible mistake.

As i understand it if profits rise intemationally from IP that apple holds in Ireland they must increase their workforce in Ireland in proportion. Its part of the deal.

I think there is a decent chance that the dedicated tax teams are simply complying with the current tax laws than planning for the future.