2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

JimmyVik

Louis Friend wrote: »

That had to have been spoof. There’s too much uncertainty for people to do that. For all we know, things will be back to normal 11 months from now.
You’d feel pretty stupid leaving Dublin, for example, only to have to come back.

I know people who did that years ago.
Then had to come back for one reason or another and lost out big time.

JimmyVik

Timing belt wrote: »

Almost 7 in 10 people in Ireland are living in homes ‘too big for their needs’

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/almost-7-in-10-people-in-ireland-are-living-in-homes-too-big-for-their-needs-39958654.html

Is this where people come in and say incentivize or tax the old people out of the houses they sunk their blood sweat and tears into

Wanderer78

JimmyVik wrote: »

Is this where people come in and say incentivize or tax the old people out of the houses they sunk their blood sweat and tears into

....and raised their children, and possible grandchildren in....

hometruths

Hubertj wrote: »

Type of housing. We discussed this before but I think the issue with older people is finding suitable housing to “downsize” to. In laws have spent a few years looking and yet to find something that ticks all boxes.

Sure we've discussed this before. From day 1 on here I have been arguing that our problem is not a physical shortage of housing stock but an inefficient use of the existing stock we have. Stats like this from EU simply confirm that belief.
The solution is better found in addressing whatever issues are causing those inefficiencies than simply building 50k new units a year.

For example, if one of the issues is older people downsizing, the rush to build 3 bed semis for young FTB families is not to going to solve the underlying problems.

Timing belt

thefridge2006 wrote: »

heard that on the radio myself. if you think about it, this global pandemic that has shut down the world for what will be over a year but has had no real affect on anything is down to Govs kicking the can down the road. This will come to a horrible end as there is no realistic way of continuing like this. When is the question....

It will be a couple of years down the road unless there is significant inflation that forces central banks to put rates up..... The kicking the can down the road has been taking place since 2008 and there is still enough road for another couple of years before it ends.

We have yet to go through the living in a low yield environment.. Which won't be fun as asset prices rise further and companies look at costs under a microscope.

hometruths

JimmyVik wrote: »

Is this where people come in and say incentivize or tax the old people out of the houses they sunk their blood sweat and tears into

Meanwhile do everything we can to let the people who have not paid their mortgages in 10 years stay in those houses because "it's de family home".

Madness!

Timing belt

schmittel wrote: »

Sure we've discussed this before. From day 1 on here I have been arguing that our problem is not a physical shortage of housing stock but an inefficient use of the existing stock we have. Stats like this from EU simply confirm that belief.
The solution is better found in addressing whatever issues are causing those inefficiencies than simply building 50k new units a year.

For example, if one of the issues is older people downsizing, the rush to build 3 bed semis for young FTB families is not to going to solve the underlying problems.

If they have worked for the house and paid for it why should they move it is their home.....If someone in social housing is not moved out why the hell should someone that has worked hard all their life move.... Its like asking old people to stop driving at peak times to prevent traffic congestion.

awec

There was a government scheme 2 or 3 years ago where they'd pay old people to downsize. I'm not sure if it ever got off the ground, or what the uptake was. I remember they did a lot of surveying of older people to see if there would be any interest.

I know a lot of old people view their house with sentiment, it's where the kids grew up, and even if it is massively oversized for their needs they'd have no interest in moving, particularly if the neighbours are at a similar stage of life and have got to know each other well.

Villa05

schmittel wrote:

Whilst we are an extreme outlier in terms of cost, the EU says we are good in terms of affordability - EU average people spend 20% of disposable income on housing costs whereas we spend 15.7%. This surprised me.

Would property tax be included in in affordability calculations. Our property tax is miniscule compared to other countries and comes nowhere near covering the costs of the services required for those homes to exist

I believe some one posted that the rent on a house in his estate was 2.5 times what the mortgage was on theirs. So housing is a poverty trap for low/middle income workers

Social housing being sold at les than replacement value

Wanderer78

awec wrote: »

There was a government scheme 2 or 3 years ago where they'd pay old people to downsize. I'm not sure if it ever got off the ground, or what the uptake was. I remember they did a lot of surveying of older people to see if there would be any interest.

would be interested to know the outcome of this myself, i suspect very few moved, but of course i could be wrong

Villa05

Timing belt wrote:

I am struggling to find underlying data for this..... What I did find was how we was this graph from the

Your posts are excellent and informative

Do you know if we led or followed the market in terms of mortgage terms moving from 20 years to 35 years

Do you know the standard mortgage term in the EU compared to Ireland

hometruths

Timing belt wrote: »

If they have worked for the house and paid for it why should they move it is their home.....If someone in social housing is not moved out why the hell should someone that has worked hard all their life move.... Its like asking old people to stop driving at peak times to prevent traffic congestion.

I've never suggested they should be forced out if they don't want to, and am very strongly against any of these sort of proposals.

I do think priority should be given to addressing the needs of some of older people who do want to downsize. A very obvious one is bridging finance.

Timing belt

Villa05 wrote: »

Would property tax be included in in affordability calculations. Our property tax is miniscule compared to other countries and comes nowhere near covering the costs of the services required for those homes to exist

I believe some one posted that the rent on a house in his estate was 2.5 times what the mortgage was on theirs. So housing is a poverty trap for low/middle income workers

Social housing being sold at les than replacement value

Yes there must be other servicing costs as home owners with no mortgage at a EU level are showing up on the report.

For rent it looks like this:

JimmyVik

schmittel wrote: »

Sure we've discussed this before. From day 1 on here I have been arguing that our problem is not a physical shortage of housing stock but an inefficient use of the existing stock we have. Stats like this from EU simply confirm that belief.
The solution is better found in addressing whatever issues are causing those inefficiencies than simply building 50k new units a year.

For example, if one of the issues is older people downsizing, the rush to build 3 bed semis for young FTB families is not to going to solve the underlying problems.

Before we take the old peoples houses off them we should try something like

EVERYONE pays the value of the house they live in.

The government should only be paying for the lowest value houses.
So if the govt is paying for you to live in an expensive house in an expensive area. Out you go to somewhere cheaper for the government to pay for and let someone else, who actually needs it, use that high value property.
Same for the govt leasing, at very high prices, expensive properties in Dublin. WTF.

Spend less money on more lower value properties.

Timing belt

schmittel wrote: »

I've never suggested they should be forced out if they don't want to, and am very strongly against any of these sort of proposals.

I do think priority should be given to addressing the needs of some of older people who do want to downsize. A very obvious one is bridging finance.

Good point and very often they would be better off downsizing and spending the money or gifting it to someone rather than see it disappear in nursing home fees.

Wanderer78

JimmyVik wrote: »

Before we take the old peoples houses off them we should try something like

EVERYONE pays the value of the house they live in.

The government should only be paying for the lowest value houses.
So if the govt is paying for you to live in an expensive house in an expensive area. Out you go to somewhere cheaper for the government to pay for and let someone else, who actually needs it, use that high value property.
Same for the govt leasing, at very high prices, expensive properties in Dublin. WTF.

Spend less money on more lower value properties.

gentrification, an interesting idea!

JimmyVik

awec wrote: »

There was a government scheme 2 or 3 years ago where they'd pay old people to downsize. I'm not sure if it ever got off the ground, or what the uptake was. I remember they did a lot of surveying of older people to see if there would be any interest.

I know a lot of old people view their house with sentiment, it's where the kids grew up, and even if it is massively oversized for their needs they'd have no interest in moving, particularly if the neighbours are at a similar stage of life and have got to know each other well.

Remember old people are more comfortable in familiar surroundings. They cant just up sticks and move away from their friends and communities that they have spent a lifetime on. Its just not fair, apart from anything else.

Timing belt

JimmyVik wrote: »

Before we take the old peoples houses off them we should try something like

EVERYONE pays the value of the house they live in.

The government should only be paying for the lowest value houses.
So if the govt is paying for you to live in an expensive house in an expensive area. Out you go to somewhere cheaper for the government to pay for and let someone else, who actually needs it, use that high value property.
Same for the govt leasing, at very high prices, expensive properties in Dublin. WTF.

Spend less money on more lower value properties.

Could not agree more with you on that point but unfortunately it will never happen with all our socialist parties/governments.

Wanderer78

JimmyVik wrote: »

Remember old people are more comfortable in familiar surroundings. They cant just up sticks and move away from their friends and communities that they have spent a lifetime on. Its just not fair, apart from anything else.

causing them to move from their community, would hardly lead to complex social and psychological issues, leading to health service costs increasing, would they!

JimmyVik

Villa05 wrote: »

Would property tax be included in in affordability calculations. Our property tax is miniscule compared to other countries and comes nowhere near covering the costs of the services required for those homes to exist

I believe some one posted that the rent on a house in his estate was 2.5 times what the mortgage was on theirs. So housing is a poverty trap for low/middle income workers

Social housing being sold at les than replacement value

If you want the services then I think the next move on property tax will have to be that residents, owners or renters pay tax to live in an area. And no exceptions. You dont not use the services just because you own the house.
You want to live in Dublin 4, you pay more tax than if you live in Donegal.
Like the council tax in the UK. Its per person regardless of whether they own the house or rent it.

Wanderer78

Timing belt wrote: »

Could not agree more with you on that point but unfortunately it will never happen with all our socialist parties/governments.

so our main government parties are such yea?

fliball123

JimmyVik wrote: »

Remember old people are more comfortable in familiar surroundings. They cant just up sticks and move away from their friends and communities that they have spent a lifetime on. Its just not fair, apart from anything else.

Maybe something like offering a family member a tax credit for taking in their parents or parent and letting the parent sell their property and live out the rest of their days in comfort of familiar people who will look after them with a wad of cash in their pocket from the sale and the family member getting something from the government for looking after their parent and freeing up a house. We do need options the supply of housing is so poor presently

Wanderer78

JimmyVik wrote: »

If you want the services then I think the next move on property tax will have to be that residents, owners or renters pay tax to live in an area. And no exceptions. You dont not use the services just because you own the house.
You want to live in Dublin 4, you pay more tax than if you live in Donegal.
Like the council tax in the UK. Its per person regardless of whether they own the house or rent it.

this type of thinking and policies, has hardly lead to their current situation!

Wanderer78

fliball123 wrote: »

Maybe something like offering a family member a tax credit for taking in their parents or parent and letting the parent sell their property and live out the rest of their days in comfort of familiar people who will look after them with a wad of cash in their pocket from the sale and the family member getting something from the government for looking after their parent and freeing up a house. We do need options the supply of housing is so poor presently

what if they want to remain in their own home, and would prefer their independents?

JimmyVik

Wanderer78 wrote: »

would be interested to know the outcome of this myself, i suspect very few moved, but of course i could be wrong

They would probably move if it was an offer worth the move.
But as we know. It never is.

Timing belt

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so our main government parties are such yea?

We have discussed this many a time... All the political parties in Ireland are socialist.

fliball123

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what if they want to remain in their own home, and would prefer their independents?

Well let them stay I am not saying to turf them out but as people get older it gets harder to remain ailment free . Ailments such as arthritis, diabetes and other health issues kick in and I know people can be belligerent with regards to wanting to stay independent but at some point it becomes dangerous for older people to be in by themselves and that is when the options such as the one I outlined could be an actual choice for them. Care for the elderly is all getting worse due to the fact that as a nation and actually globally we are living longer.

JimmyVik

Timing belt wrote: »

We have discussed this many a time... All the political parties in Ireland are socialist.

Thats what has the property landscape so fcuked up.

MacronvFrugals

Timing belt wrote: »

Could not agree more with you on that point but unfortunately it will never happen with all our socialist parties/governments.

Hyperbole!

Zenify

I was just thinking about the social house downsizing argument.

Many of these social houses have adult children living in them too who are also waiting on a social house. By forcing them to downsize you know have 2 families to home.

You could make it a condition that if there is grandchildren in the home then the grandparents do not have to downsize. I wonder if this would then make the children come off the housing list to stop their parents downsizing... And reduce the demand for social housing?

Does that make sense?