2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Definitely. They're not gathering this information for general information purposes. They're gathering the information to use it against countries like Ireland etc.

ill ask you aswell

what is your understanding of what has been proposed, what currently exists and what it actually means?

PropQueries

Cyrus wrote: »

ill ask you aswell

what is your understanding of what has been proposed, what currently exists and what it actually means?

Well the article states "A new EU law opposed by Ireland that would force multinationals to reveal their tax payments and activities per member state is on its way".

So, if I was German newspaper and I saw that Google reported sales of e.g. €5 billion in my country in 2021 and they only paid tax of e.g. €5 million, that's going to make headlines and the German people can now see how much they are losing in tax revenues on an annual basis if the status quo remains.

If anything, the opposition will just throw it in the government's face every time there's a debate on cuts to expenditure or rises in taxes.

That will be incentive enough for each country to start closing loopholes IMO

The interesting one will be if there are many German based companies using such loopholes and that will only add fuel to the fire IMO

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Well the article states "A new EU law opposed by Ireland that would force multinationals to reveal their tax payments and activities per member state is on its way".

So, if I was German newspaper and I saw that Google reported sales of e.g. €5 billion in my country in 2021 and they only paid tax of e.g. €5 million, that's going to make headlines and the German people can now see how much they are losing in tax revenues on an annual basis if the status quo remains.

If anything, the opposition will just throw it in the government's face every time there's a debate on cuts to expenditure or rises in taxes.

That will be incentive enough for each country to start closing loopholes IMO

The interesting one will be if there are many German based companies using such loopholes and that will only add fuel to the fire IMO

thats the problem with relying on newspapers for this kind of information, CBCR has been in force since 2016, all this is making that information public, the respective tax authorities already have it.

PropQueries

Cyrus wrote: »

thats the problem with relying on newspapers for this kind of information, CBCR has been in force since 2016, all this is making that information public, the respective tax authorities already have it.

Hence my argument on what happens when the media also have access to the same information

PropQueries

I think we’ve hit a new ridiculous pricing category on what developers want to charge councils for social housing units. According to the SBP:

“Louth County Council could pay €362,000 each for two-bed social housing units at a new apartment complex in Drogheda.”

Link to SBP article here: https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/louth-county-council-could-pay-eur362k-for-two-bed-social-housing-units-634f8a03

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Hence my argument on what happens when the media also have access to the same information

Very little different in my opinion. This has been blown up on here meanwhile we have been working in this environment for the past 4 years .

Yurt2

PropQueries wrote: »

I think we’ve hit a new ridiculous pricing category on what developers want to charge councils for social housing units. According to the SBP:

“Louth County Council could pay €362,000 each for two-bed social housing units at a new apartment complex in Drogheda.”

Link to SBP article here: https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/louth-county-council-could-pay-eur362k-for-two-bed-social-housing-units-634f8a03

Are couples/individuals seriously going to bite on 362k two-bed apartments in Drogheda? Or is this another case of REITS buying off-plans, units sitting empty, and then slowly being leased to local authorities at over-the-odds long-term leases.

Ush1

Yurt! wrote: »

Are couples/individuals seriously going to bite on 362k two-bed apartments in Drogheda? Or is this another case of REITS buying off-plans, units sitting empty, and then slowly being leased to local authorities at over-the-odds long-term leases.

The price could be totally different for the non social units. Builders know the government has deep pockets.

PropQueries

According to RTÉ, Leo Varadkar has said:

“Mr Varadkar also cautioned that the transition to remote working could "hollow out" our major cities, which could face competition from other locations from which workers could choose to work remotely from anywhere.

Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway will be competing with Barcelona, Liverpool, Paris and Lisbon in the battle for talent. And talent can remote work from almost anywhere, so our cities need to be vibrant places where talent wants to live”

I like the way he kept out any city in Eastern Europe. If he did, that would bring up the high cost of living comparisons IMO and if, as Leo said, these workers can live anywhere, why would they choose Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford or Galway?

Link to article on RTÉ here: https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0318/1204784-living-wage-varadkar/

Yurt2

Ush1 wrote: »

The price could be totally different for the non social units. Builders know the government has deep pockets.

More than likely, these are going straight into the hands of REITs in-bulk for them to sit on. My question was rhetorical, if a couple / individual has 362k to spend, they're not about to spend it on a two bed unit in Drogheda.

Hubertj

Yurt! wrote: »

More than likely, these are going straight into the hands of REITs in-bulk for them to sit on. My question was rhetorical, if a couple / individual has 362k to spend, they're not about to spend it on a two bed unit in Drogheda.

Maybe you would if you really really really really really really really wanted to live in drogheda. And had more money than sense

Yurt2

Hubertj wrote: »

Maybe you would if you really really really really really really really wanted to live in drogheda. And had more money than sense

It's a niche market I agree.

JimmyVik

I heard yesterday about a couple of large houses with about an acre each of land currently in the process of being bought subject to planning by a developer in north Dublin, near Swords.
The developer has already a deal in place to buy all of the houses with fingal coco and he hasnt even got planning (but pretty much a done deal given who will be granting the planning permission), or actually closed the sale on the houses yet.
The reason i know this is that have a source in fingal coco.

Probably cost an absolute fortune for the tax payer.

Ush1

Yurt! wrote: »

More than likely, these are going straight into the hands of REITs in-bulk for them to sit on. My question was rhetorical, if a couple / individual has 362k to spend, they're not about to spend it on a two bed unit in Drogheda.

Of course not, but Louth County Council have other peoples money. Value for money is not a priority. I seriously doubt any REIT would be paying that price either.

Yurt2

Ush1 wrote: »

Of course not, but Louth County Council have other peoples money. Value for money is not a priority. I seriously doubt any REIT would be paying that price either.

REITs have been paying over the odds (far more than mortgage approved couples and cash in hand investors are willing to pay) for new-build apartments for years now -- and, letting them sit empty in many cases. These will go to REITs, and not at sum less than 362k. They're making a play that councils under pressure from central government will act as price takers and will lease them long-term.

They may be right unless we have a government that takes their head out of their a*s and shouts stop.

Ush1

Yurt! wrote: »

REITs have been paying over the odds (far more than mortgage approved couples and cash in hand investors are willing to pay) for new-build apartments for years now -- and, letting them sit empty in many cases. These will go to REITs, and not at sum less than 362k. They're making a play that councils under pressure from central government will act as price takers and will lease them long-term.

They may be right unless we have a government that takes their head out of their a*s and shouts stop.

Obviously the social units will go to the council, hence the article.

The ire is to do with government spending of public money, not REITs.

Villa05

Ush1 wrote:

The price could be totally different for the non social units. Builders know the government has deep pockets.

JimmyVik wrote:

Probably cost an absolute fortune for the tax payer.

I'm beginning to think that taxes may actually fall if SF get into power.
The complete disregard this shower have for taxpayers money does not appear to have a ceiling

Amazing levels of incompetence

MacronvFrugals

I read an interesting stat in this book today, in 2010 funds bought 500 units in Ireland and in 2019 they bought 5000

https://policy.bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/housing-shock

cnocbui

PropQueries wrote: »

Well if those c. 90,000 currently vacant homes are taxed at e.g. €10k each per annum, that just might make up for the expected shortfall in our share of the EU Brexit fund that may now be reduced and the Government had already most likely probably factored into next years budget.

From yesterday's Irish Times: "Irish share of €5bn EU Brexit fund could be slashed under French plan"

Link to article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/irish-share-of-5bn-eu-brexit-fund-could-be-slashed-under-french-plan-1.4512255

Nice wind up from under your bridge, there. :rolleyes:

PropQueries

cnocbui wrote: »

Nice wind up from under your bridge, there. :rolleyes:

Not a wind up at all. It’s based on the same Washington D.C. 5% tax on a €200k vacant home.

I’m not talking about holiday homes in dedicated zoned areas. A second home that’s not in a dedicated holiday home zoned area is taking a family home from someone who may wish to live in and contribute to the local area year round.

A €10k annual tax on such homes is entirely justifiable and fair in such circumstances. And if they can afford a second home, then by definition, they can afford the annual €10k tax.

€10k per annum is actually quite low in my view given the costs they impose on the local economy i.e. not using local services, shops, GP services, post offices etc. etc. by not living there year round IMO

Yurt2

Not pointing fingers at any particular poster, but there are some who are of the view that if you own the deeds to a property, and are on the right side of a property boondoggle, that a proportionate tax for the public good that prevents dereliction, underutilisation of housing stock and unproductive and destructive speculation is akin to the Soviet Union.

That's not adult, and it's not the real world. We've a lot of growing up to do with housing and property in this country.

cnocbui

Yurt! wrote: »

Not pointing fingers at any particular poster, but there are some who are of the view that if you own the deeds to a property, and are on the right side of a property boondoggle, that a proportionate tax for the public good that prevents dereliction, underutilisation of housing stock and unproductive and destructive speculation is akin to the Soviet Union.

That's not adult, and it's not the real world. We've a lot of growing up to do with housing and property in this country.

Well you will be glad to know that I am in the process of selling one property, and if that completes, I'll be selling the other and can then join you socialists in being unencumbered by property. It can't happen fast enough.

Yurt2

cnocbui wrote: »

Well you will be glad to know that I am in the process of selling one property, and if that completes, I'll be selling the other and can then join you socialists in being unencumbered by property. It can't happen fast enough.

Why makes you think I'm not a property owner or that I'm 'a socialist'? You'd be wrong on both counts.


You've fallen into the everyone I disagree with is a communist wormhole again cnoc.

hometruths

Yurt! wrote: »

Why makes you think I'm not a property owner or that I'm 'a socialist'? You'd be wrong on both counts.


You've fallen into the everyone I disagree with is a communist wormhole again cnoc.

These threads have not quite unleashed the socialist in me, but i’ve definitely discovered hitherto well hidden leftie tendencies in myself since participating on here.

Then I read the council might pay the guts of 400k for a two bed apartment in Drogheda and the rabid right winger free marketeer takes over again.

It’s all very confusing.

Yurt2

schmittel wrote: »

These threads have not quite unleashed the socialist in me, but i’ve definitely discovered hitherto well hidden leftie tendencies in myself since participating on here.

Then I read the council might pay the guts of 400k for a two bed apartment in Drogheda and the rabid right winger free marketeer takes over again.

It’s all very confusing.

I'm not sure you'd call government paying developers through the nose for housing units (sometimes on land they sold to the developer at a deep discount) a core tenant of socialism -- dummyism maybe?

Hubertj

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm not sure you'd call government paying developers through the nose for housing units (sometimes on land they sold to the developer at a deep discount) a core tenant of socialism -- dummyism maybe?

Same can be said for pretty much the provision of all public services. Our beloved public servants don’t give a toss as they aren’t accountable. It’s not their money.

cnocbui

France Tried Soaking the Rich. It Didn’t Go Well.

A wealth tax and sky-high rates on top incomes didn’t yield much revenue.
...
France had a wealth tax from 1982 to 1986 and again from 1988 to 2017. The top rate was between 1.5% and 1.8%, with the total tax rate on fortunes larger than 13 million euros ($14.3 million) hovering at about 1.4%. This is much less than the 6% top rate proposed by Warren (not to mention the 8% proposed by her fellow candidate, Senator Bernie Sanders), but it's close to the 2% rate Warren would impose on fortunes larger than $50 million.
The wealth tax might have generated social solidarity, but as a practical matter it was a disappointment. The revenue it raised was rather paltry; only a few billion euros at its peak, or about 1% of France’s total revenue from all taxes. At least 10,000 wealthy people left the country to avoid paying the tax; most moved to neighboring Belgium, which has a large French-speaking population. When these individuals left, France lost not only their wealth tax revenue but their income taxes and other taxes as well. French economist Eric Pichet estimates that this ended up costing the French government almost twice as much revenue as the total yielded by the wealth tax. When President Emmanuel Macron ended the wealth tax in 2017, it was viewed mostly as a symbolic move.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-11-14/france-s-wealth-tax-should-be-a-warning-for-warren-and-sanders

The problem in Ireland is not insufficient taxation of individuals, its not taxing REITS, Apple, Google and their cohorts enough, together with a mental incapcity to deal with government expenditure, downsizing the public service and not tackling their inefficiencies, like the HSE, where Ireland has the second highest OECD expenditure on health care and the poorest outcomes.

NSW to digitise the whole property sector

NSW will expand its e-planning portal to digitally integrate all relevant regulatory, approval, transaction and compliance requirements into a single system.

This country sorely needs a dose of that sort of thing, after it fixes the deliberately cost inducing legal system to make such things possible, among other things.

MacronvFrugals

Is it conspiratorial to say the rental sector was made extremely attractive for international funds by central government with the sole intention of lifting Tiger era buyers out of negative equity and removing toxic assets?

cnocbui

Hubertj wrote: »

Same can be said for pretty much the provision of all public services. Our beloved public servants don’t give a toss as they aren’t accountable. It’s not their money.

My son applied for an Irish passport 18 months ago. The public servants who should have been doing work on such applications have been sitting at home drawing their salaries and doing not a lick of work for them and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

Meanwhile, the NCT is still open for business, despite a massive reduction in vehicle movements and wear and tear on them. If you order something online from outside the EU customs and excise still seem to be at it and will happily ask you to cough up when it arrives, but 24+ months to process a passport application and tie up critical ID documents for that period of time is ok.

Graham

Mod Note

a final reminder that this is the Accommodation & Property forum. There are dedicated forums for political/taxation discussion unrelated to property.


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