2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

JimmyVik

fliball123 wrote: »

Well let them stay I am not saying to turf them out but as people get older it gets harder to remain ailment free . Ailments such as arthritis, diabetes and other health issues kick in and I know people can be belligerent with regards to wanting to stay independent but at some point it becomes dangerous for older people to be in by themselves and that is when the options such as the one I outlined could be an actual choice for them. Care for the elderly is all getting worse due to the fact that as a nation and actually globally we are living longer.

Build proper retirement complexes. I mean proper ones, not irish ones.
Offer old people a swap. They can live in the retirement home for free until they die, in return for the control of their property until they die. Then rental income from the persons home can be used to finance their stay in the retirement home. When they die, the retirement home is freed up. The persons property is passed back to their estate.


That way if the retirement home is not up to scratch and is not a nice experience for them they can just swap back to their own house. They are also not losing their asset that they might want to keep for safety.
And the retirement home has an incentive to keep the residents happy. Because if they dont, deal is off and there is a way out for the old person.

Wanderer78

Timing belt wrote: »

We have discussed this many a time... All the political parties in Ireland are socialist.

it doesnt seem like you learned much from those discussions, irelands main government parties, which have been, since the beginning of the state, i.e. fine gael and fianna fail, are primarily economically conservative parties, and have transited towards typical free market libertarian ideologies and policies. you will find these ideologies are the opposite end of the spectrum to what you believe

Timing belt

Wanderer78 wrote: »

it doesnt seem like you learned much from those discussions, irelands main government parties, which have been, since the beginning of the state, i.e. fine gael and fianna fail, are primarily economically conservative parties, and have transited towards typical free market libertarian ideologies and policies. you will find these ideologies are the opposite end of the spectrum to what you believe

Can we keep the conversation to property. There is a political form.... I am sure some will discuss it with you there.

fliball123

JimmyVik wrote: »

Build proper retirement complexes. I mean proper ones, not irish ones.
Offer old people a swap. They can live in the retirement home for free until they die, in return for the control of their property until they die. Then rental income from the persons home can be used to finance their stay in the retirement home. When they die, the retirement home is freed up. The persons property is passed back to their estate.


That way if the retirement home is not up to scratch and is not a nice experience for them they can just swap back to their own house. They are also not losing their asset that they might want to keep for safety.
And the retirement home has an incentive to keep the residents happy. Because if they dont, deal is off and there is a way out for the old person.

Yeah could be another option alright. I think there needs to be more joined up thinking from social vs private and from starter homes to family homes to retirement homes. I think this has been missing for decades.

Wanderer78

Timing belt wrote: »

Can we keep the conversation to property. There is a political form.... I am sure some will discuss it with you there.

again, a typical problem within the property element of the forum, the two cannot be separated, as they are intrinsically linked, our current housing failures, are deeply politically caused, and this isnt a problem confined to ireland

Timing belt

fliball123 wrote: »

Yeah could be another option alright. I think there needs to be more joined up thinking from social vs private and from starter homes to family homes to retirement homes. I think this has been missing for decades.

There will not be a one size fits all... A range of options are need but as you say it needs to be all joined up...

fliball123

Wanderer78 wrote: »

it doesnt seem like you learned much from those discussions, irelands main government parties, which have been, since the beginning of the state, i.e. fine gael and fianna fail, are primarily economically conservative parties, and have transited towards typical free market libertarian ideologies and policies. you will find these ideologies are the opposite end of the spectrum to what you believe

Are you serious how much are they spending in social welfare. How many free houses have they given away. How many people are allowed stay in the family home without paying a mortgage. To say that our current and the last 2/3 governments are not left leaning is ridiculous. When it comes to paying for it we are all in it together socalise the loses but when comes to taking the money out of the system it only benefits the elite, PS and those who moan the most from the left wing who get it. All of us in the middle are told to shut up and keep on getting up in the morning and be happy your working.

thefridge2006

Property developer Conor Clarkson faces bankruptcy petition

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/property-developer-conor-clarkson-faces-bankruptcy-petition-39958610.html

Timing belt

fliball123 wrote: »

Are you serious how much are they spending in social welfare. How many free houses have they given away. How many people are allowed stay in the family home without paying a mortgage. To say that our current and the last 2/3 governments are not left leaning is ridiculous. When it comes to paying for it we are all in it together socalise the loses but when comes to taking the money out of the system it only benefits the elite, PS and those who moan the most from the left wing who get it. All of us in the middle are told to shut up and keep on getting up in the morning and be happy your working.

He is only baiting you so that he can post about how socially complex it all is and how public debt is good private debt is bad....

Wanderer78

fliball123 wrote: »

Are you serious how much are they spending in social welfare. How many free houses have they given away. How many people are allowed stay in the family home without paying a mortgage. To say that our current and the last 2/3 governments are not left leaning is ridiculous. When it comes to paying for it we are all in it together socalise the loses but when comes to taking the money out of the system it only benefits the elite, PS and those who moan the most from the left wing who get it. All of us in the middle are told to shut up and keep on getting up in the morning and be happy your working.

dont allow your biases and prejudices cloud your judgement, what the free market libertarians dont want to talk about, and simply are unwilling to accept, is the wealth extraction that has been occurring via policies that encourage property and land values to rise, primarily by the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), which is in fact, ultimately where our property issues are stemming from. these ideologies are opposed to polices such as land value taxes, to try deal with these issues, and regularly point the finger else where, the welfare classes being a common one!

MacronvFrugals

Without social transfers Ireland will be a hellhole, lets be honest folks

Wanderer78

Timing belt wrote: »

He is only baiting you so that he can post about how socially complex it all is and how public debt is good private debt is bad....

both debts are required to have a functioning society, but during the so called neoliberal period, we have become overly reliant on the private sector to grow our economies, via its financial institutions, which creates money via credit creation, this has in turn only truly benefitted asset owners, by causing these assets to grow in value significantly, this is particularly noticeable in property and land values.

Wanderer78

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Without social transfers Ireland will be a hellhole, lets be honest folks

unsure what you mean by 'social transfers', but rising asset prices causes rising wealth inequality, which has a negative effect on 'social mobility'!

MacronvFrugals

Wanderer78 wrote: »

unsure what you mean by 'social transfers', but rising asset prices causes rising wealth inequality, which has a negative effect on 'social mobility'!

social transfers ie distribution through taxation, i dont particularly like losing 1600 blips from my payslip each month but its necessary for the wellbeing of society, not everyone can be geeky programmers in fairness and we need to provide some sort of net.

Mary Harney asked the question well some years back "Ireland has to decide whether it wants to be like Boston or Berlin"

Idbatterim

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so our main government parties are such yea?

yes they are. Rip off housing being the slight fly in the ointment. But the lust for rip off housing, creates serious other issues, not building state housing themselves. They themselves(or we) then pay for the rip off luxury apartments on 25 year mad money leases etc... Will be interesting to see what happens next election, this housing issue is bubbling, its what resulted in FG large loss of seats last election, and if that is what happened last election, just ad another several years of the housing crisis and see where things are at next election. Hundreds of thousands on pup, crap living situations. Free luxury housing for the workshy wasters!

Wanderer78

Idbatterim wrote: »

yes they are. Rip off housing being the slight fly in the ointment. But the lust for rip off housing, creates serious other issues, not building state housing themselves. They themselves(or we) then pay for the rip off luxury apartments on 25 year mad money leases etc... Will be interesting to see what happens next election, this housing issue is bubbling, its what resulted in FG large loss of seats last election, and if that is what happened last election, just ad another several years of the housing crisis and see where things are at next election. Hundreds of thousands on pup, crap living situations. Free luxury housing for the workshy wasters!

...again, the problem isnt truly with welfare classes, we actually dont know what to do about the failures of these ideologies, we havent even began to accept, theyve failed! trumpism has just begun!

Idbatterim

Wanderer78 wrote: »

it doesnt seem like you learned much from those discussions, irelands main government parties, which have been, since the beginning of the state, i.e. fine gael and fianna fail, are primarily economically conservative parties, and have transited towards typical free market libertarian ideologies and policies. you will find these ideologies are the opposite end of the spectrum to what you believe

outrageous welfare, free luxury homes, medical cards etc paid for by a marginal tax rate of 50% over a pittance of an income! sounds pretty socialist to me!

Wanderer78

Idbatterim wrote: »

outrageous welfare, free luxury homes, medical cards etc paid for by a marginal tax rate of 50% over a pittance of an income! sounds pretty socialist to me!

go way outta that, you can clearly see the implications of these ideologies, again, this isnt just an irish problem. the most significant proportion of incomes goes towards providing accommodation, the majority of that goes towards servicing debts, which was created by private sector financial institutions in the form of credit.....

fliball123

Wanderer78 wrote: »

go way outta that, you can clearly see the implications of these ideologies, again, this isnt just an irish problem. the most significant proportion of incomes goes towards providing accommodation, the majority of that goes towards servicing debts, which was created by private sector financial institutions in the form of credit.....

That is simply untrue the biggest portion of spend for our government and our taxes is social welfare/social protection not servicing debts and if you traverse through the years here from 2011 you will see servicing debts is decreasing and social welfare is increasing

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

Hulk Hands

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

social transfers ie distribution through taxation, i dont particularly like losing 1600 blips from my payslip each month but its necessary for the wellbeing of society, not everyone can be geeky programmers in fairness and we need to provide some sort of net.

Mary Harney asked the question well some years back "Ireland has to decide whether it wants to be like Boston or Berlin"

I actually think we have the balance right. That seems scandalous to say these days where everyone seems to lean one way or another. I wouldn't like to see the social divides you have in countries like the US, it leads to a really disjointed society. Any further taxation however will disincentivize people from improving themselves.

Just wish they could clean up the money wastage however, such as the Health service, poor planning on social housing, construction cartels, projects like the childrens hospital etc. And remove the land hording from certain parties & vulture funds. The overall ethos is right but the execution is wrong.

PommieBast

fliball123 wrote: »

That is simply untrue the biggest portion of spend for our government and our taxes is social welfare/social protection not servicing debts and if you traverse through the years here from 2011 you will see servicing debts is decreasing and social welfare is increasing

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

Beat me to it. Housing is not even its own sub-category..
Health is shockingly high for a country where health insurance is practically a necessity..

Idbatterim

this is going off topic, but even before covid hit, there were no welfare increases I believe, in the budgets, during a BOOM, before COVID and they knew an election was imminent! good luck to the politicians after this, the days of endless money for welfare and PS pay rises are long over. The sheer amount that the HSE swallows, ageing population, providing outrageous cost accommodation, a farce of a taxation system. The next few years are going to be very interesting!

I would love to see a council tax, paid by all adults in the household, no exemptions or exceptions. Currently those in the free luxury housing, dont pay LPT, dont even have to pay for their waste collection etc, as its included in the management fee, that WE pay for! Surprised we dont pay their broadband and tv package directly too!

I wonder what the projected budget deficit for 2021 will be, does anyone know?

Wanderer78

fliball123 wrote: »

That is simply untrue the biggest portion of spend for our government and our taxes is social welfare/social protection not servicing debts

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

...again, im talking primarily about private debt, something free market libertarians dont ever what to talk about. the majority of global debt is in the private domain, i.e. private debt. a significant proportion of income is used to service these debts, in order to fulfill property needs, rental and mortgage sectors, in many cases, the majority of peoples income is required to do so. this has little or nothing to do with welfare classes

hometruths

Hulk Hands wrote: »

I actually think we have the balance right. That seems scandalous to say these days where everyone seems to lean one way or another. I wouldn't like to see the social divides you have in countries like the US, it leads to a really disjointed society. Any further taxation however will disincentivize people from improving themselves.

Just wish they could clean up the money wastage however, such as the Health service, poor planning on social housing, construction cartels, projects like the childrens hospital etc. And remove the land hording from certain parties & vulture funds. The overall ethos is right but the execution is wrong.

Agree, I am very quick to complain about how things are handled in Ireland, principally the completely f8cked up property market and the scaremongering about a housing crisis.

But then I look at the US and think, wow, I'd rather have our problems!

Wanderer78

schmittel wrote: »

Agree, I am very quick to complain about how things are handled in Ireland, principally the completely f8cked up property market and the scaremongering about a housing crisis.

But then I look at the US and think, wow, I'd rather have our problems!

we ve adopted similar political ideologies, so........

Timing belt

schmittel wrote: »

Agree, I am very quick to complain about how things are handled in Ireland, principally the completely f8cked up property market and the scaremongering about a housing crisis.

But then I look at the US and think, wow, I'd rather have our problems!

I take it you won't be joining me and the others when we storm the Dáil Éireann to complain about....wait I don't know what we can complain about.. sur we will work it out on the way there ::D

Timing belt

And the Property Forum becomes the political forum..... Didn't see that coming a page or two back.

Wanderer78

Timing belt wrote: »

And the Property Forum becomes the political forum..... Didn't see that coming a page or two back.

....again, property and land is political, it always has been

Timing belt

Wanderer78 wrote: »

....again, property and land is political, it always has been

Its funny how it always happens in whatever forum you are in.... just an observation

fliball123

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...again, im talking primarily about private debt, something free market libertarians dont ever what to talk about. the majority of global debt is in the private domain, i.e. private debt. a significant proportion of income is used to service these debts, in order to fulfill property needs, rental and mortgage sectors, in many cases, the majority of peoples income is required to do so. this has little or nothing to do with welfare classes

Private debt to income ratio is coming down year on year. It is high but when you take in private savings ratio is also on the increase Ireland and at record levels. We are in a much better phase with regard to indebtedness than it was say 10 years ago.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1074366/household-debt-ratio-ireland/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/household-savings-at-an-extraordinary-level-1.4440586

To say that we are paying out over 1/3rd of what we pay in taxation on welfare and this has has nothing to do with our indebtedness is just wrong. Everyone feels it on a weekly / monthly basis on their paycheck. To be exposed to losing half of every Euro earned at a rate way lower than the norm with regards to other OCED countries and lower than the AIW is the biggest factor to people working than what you are trying to spin.