2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

timmyntc

fliball123 wrote: »

I think its only social builds that are going on currently I could be wrong? I am certain that a lot of build is going on you can see it on the street not sure if they are breaking the rules or what

Yes in Ireland - but the point is that in the UK and beyond construction never closed and never will despite any number of waves. They recognise (as we should) that construction is essential

awec

jill_valentine wrote: »

Sorry, had brain failure there for a second - HTB can be accepted as a chunk of your deposit, but you do need to have a sizeable amount amassed yourself. As we saw when the bump up in limits, the market already accounts for it, new build prices are inflated in order to eat up your HTB. People who can avail of it are mostly already in a position to buy.

I consider it basically useless to buyers, but as somebody pointed out to me before, it's meant to act as an incentive to builders rather than the actual buyers anyway.

It is possible to buy without.

HTB can be up to 10% of the house, up to 30k. If you buy a 300k house you could get a HTB rebate of 30k, and there is your 10%.

Of course, this depends on the bank being willing to give you a mortgage with no savings history, but technically it's possible even if very unrealistic.

fliball123

timmyntc wrote: »

Yes in Ireland - but the point is that in the UK and beyond construction never closed and never will despite any number of waves. They recognise (as we should) that construction is essential

OK didnt know that .. cool so our builders have somewhere to go for work you couldnt blame them for relocating permanently or temporarily to work.

Mad_maxx

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

This isn't America.

We have never had a left wing government in the history of the state. Every single government intervention in the property market, which in the past 30 years has always driven up prices, has been implemented by a centre-right party.

the stripe of the sitting minister for housing is irrelevant , the pressure to create rent pressure zones , making it near impossible to shift bad tenants , gave immunity to rogue tenants who wreck properties , made it near impossible for banks to repossess houses from mortgage defaulters .

all policies which came from left wing pressure , beit politicians or media and all which have contributed to a severe lack of supply

SF repeatedly blocking development on Dublin city council is another contributing factor

Hubertj

Sue de Nimes wrote: »

New builds are sold at prices on the assumption people avail of these schemes. Which makes them less affordable for people who can't avail of them.

I'm returning to Ireland from the UK and I can't avail of any incentives as I haven't been working in Ireland.

How long will you have to be working in Ireland before you can avail of any available schemes?

jill_valentine

awec wrote: »

It is possible to buy without.

HTB can be up to 10% of the house, up to 30k. If you buy a 300k house you could get a HTB rebate of 30k, and there is your 10%.

Of course, this depends on the bank being willing to give you a mortgage with no savings history, but technically it's possible even if very unrealistic.

Sorry, you're right, I was editing for a bit more clarity as you were posting. Too many meetings, not enough tea.

As I say, I consider it useless to buyers and arguably detrimental to the market as a whole. Along with Rebuilding Ireland, I'm not convinced it's actually intended to function apart from giving government speakers a scheme name to mention.

DataDude

Hubertj wrote: »

How long will you have to be working in Ireland before you can avail of any available schemes?

Know someone who just moved back and is going through this process so can answer. The HTB is a rebate of taxes paid in the 4 previous years. So you can avail of the full amount once you've paid €30k of income tax (you could go earlier but with smaller rebate). For some that might be 1 year, others it might be the full 4 years that's included.

Minor point but it's done on full year looks. So if you apply in mid 2021, they won't account for any of the tax you've paid during 2021, it'd be 2016-2020.

No idea on the eligibility for the other schemes.

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

The nurse: There are somwhere around 92 job vacancies in that field in or near Limerick. Is there a salary loading for Dublin or would a nurse be paid the same for doing the same at, say, Limerick rgional?

My example of an apartment for €70 K existed in Oct and I provided the link and proof. Now it probably went for a bit more, but the gist of the property is cheaper outside of Dublin argument still stands: https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/limerick?salePrice_to=125000



That's the kitchen I started with when I bought my current house. At the time, banks would lend for the house and the cost of rennovation. Most people don't want the work involved, and that's their real objection. Have you personally applied for a loan for something that's a bit run-down, but livable in and which you could move in and fix up? Did the bank reject your application?

You expect front line emergency workers in Dublin to live hundreds of kilometres away from work so they can afford a property?
What about those workers that are in shifts?

You're still ignoring the fact that 20 years ago a house cost 2/3 times a salary, now it costs 10 times the salary.

PommieBast

Browney7 wrote: »

He/she was saying that there's a portion of ads on daft purely with the intention of not actually selling the property and just advertising it to keep banks or lawyers happy - ie the property isn't actually for "sale" and there to waste people's time. No idea what % this is

Most definitely. Of all the properties I bid on in 2016 & 2017 I don't think any were sold. This crass behaviour is one of the reasons I exited the market.

Marius34

bubblypop wrote: »

You expect front line emergency workers in Dublin to live hundreds of kilometres away from work so they can afford a property?
What about those workers that are in shifts?

You're still ignoring the fact that 20 years ago a house cost 2/3 times a salary, now it costs 10 times the salary.

what are you comparing here? I think it's apples and pears.

Marius34

Marius34 wrote: »

what are you comparing here? I think it's apples and pears.

What do you mean 'apples and pears '?

Yurt2

cnocbui wrote: »

The nurse: There are somwhere around 92 job vacancies in that field in or near Limerick. Is there a salary loading for Dublin or would a nurse be paid the same for doing the same at, say, Limerick rgional?

My example of an apartment for €70 K existed in Oct and I provided the link and proof. Now it probably went for a bit more, but the gist of the property is cheaper outside of Dublin argument still stands: https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/limerick?salePrice_to=125000



That's the kitchen I started with when I bought my current house. At the time, banks would lend for the house and the cost of rennovation. Most people don't want the work involved, and that's their real objection. Have you personally applied for a loan for something that's a bit run-down, but livable in and which you could move in and fix up? Did the bank reject your application?

You expect the nursing population to up sticks and move for your one mythical 70k one bed in Limerick in a sh*tbox part of the city, where news items would have it, a number of gun murders have taken place?

Cnoc, the sooner you get on the plane to NZ and start bringing this nonsense to Kiwis on boards.nz the better.

*Precisely zero apartments have sold for that kind of money in Limerick since probably the mid 80s.

Marius34

bubblypop wrote: »

What do you mean 'apples and pears '?

comparing 2 different things..
like 2021 Dublin price vs 2001 country side price
130 sqm house vs 70 sqm house
etc...

Those numbers doesn't look realistic, if you would compare similar things

Marius34

Marius34 wrote: »

comparing 2 different things..
like 2021 Dublin price vs 2001 country side price
130 sqm house vs 70 sqm house
etc...

Those numbers doesn't look realistic, if you would compare similar things

I see what you mean, ok, in my profession someone starting out in 2000 could afford a 3 bed semi, in Dublin. It cost approx 2/3 times their starting salary.
Now, someone starting out in my profession, would need to spend 10 times their starting salary to afford a 3 bed semi in Dublin.
Does that make sense?

Claw Hammer

bubblypop wrote: »

I see what you mean, ok, in my profession someone starting out in 2000 could afford a 3 bed semi, in Dublin. It cost approx 2/3 times their starting salary.
Now, someone starting out in my profession, would need to spend 10 times their starting salary to afford a 3 bed semi in Dublin.
Does that make sense?

You are in the wrong job!

Yurt2

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You are in the wrong job!

#learntocode

cnocbui

bubblypop wrote: »

You expect front line emergency workers in Dublin to live hundreds of kilometres away from work so they can afford a property?
What about those workers that are in shifts?

You're still ignoring the fact that 20 years ago a house cost 2/3 times a salary, now it costs 10 times the salary.

I still want to know if you bought a house 20 years ago when you said they were only 2-3 times your then salary? I'm guessing you didn't - why didn't you? I have already posted links to examples of public sector workers in NZ leaving Auckland because they can't afford the housing, and to a recognition in London of the same problem. I dont expect you to do anything, I'm not living your life for you. Ther are public sector workers who have upskilled, changed jobs, moved to cheaper locations. I'm not insisting anyone do anything. I'm sure Paris is awash with Gendarmes who complain of not being able to afford Paris.

It's a major/capital city thing, Dublin isn't unique, it's the norm. In that 'your an old guy out of touch and you had it so easy mate' dig you like so much - that first house I bought - I was approaching my mid 30's and had saved double my then pre-tax annual wage as a deposit and, it was still only 60% of the very cheap house I bought which was nothing like average price. To get that saved, I didn't drink, smoke, go the pub and went on one holiday in the preceding decade that involved travelling by plane. Anything else was bargain basement camping trips. or just staying at home. I taught myself to fix my and my partners really cheap SH cars because I couldn't afford to pay a garage. If anything else broke, I fixed that too.

There seems to be an astonishing amount of hostility here towards any suggestion that doesn't involve some hand of god engineering of an entire 'unfair' property market to suit their means, and even more towards anyone suggesting they made sacrifices to make things work for them when the property market was so much fairer than it is now.

Pussyhands

Still wondering why the ESRI came out last year and said house prices would drop by I think 12% before rising 7% this year etc.

Why would anyone sell if they're told the price is going to go back up the next year? Thus, prices don't drop.

timmyntc

cnocbui wrote: »

I still want to know if you bought a house 20 years ago when you said they were only 2-3 times your then salary? I'm guessing you didn't - why didn't you? I have already posted links to examples of public sector workers in NZ leaving Auckland because they can't afford the housing, and to a recognition in London of the same problem. I dont expect you to do anything, I'm not living your life for you. Ther are public sector workers who have upskilled, changed jobs, moved to cheaper locations. I'm not insisting anyone do anything. I'm sure Paris is awash with Gendarmes who complain of not being able to afford Paris.

It's a major/capital city thing, Dublin isn't unique, it's the norm. In that 'your an old guy out of touch and you had it so easy mate' dig you like so much - that first house I bought - I was approaching my mid 30's and had saved double my then pre-tax annual wage as a deposit and, it was still only 60% of the very cheap house I bought which was nothing like average price. To get that saved, I didn't drink, smoke, go the pub and went on one holiday in the preceding decade that involved travelling by plane. Anything else was bargain basement camping trips. or just staying at home. I taught myself to fix my and my partners really cheap SH cars because I couldn't afford to pay a garage. If anything else broke, I fixed that too.

There seems to be an astonishing amount of hostility here towards any suggestion that doesn't involve some hand of god engineering of an entire 'unfair' property market to suit their means, and even more towards anyone suggesting they made sacrifices to make things work for them when the property market was so much fairer than it is now.

How can a capital city function without most of those workers?
Cities need gardai, nurses, teachers - but yet these people dont get paid enough to afford to live in the cities. Its a bit perverse

jill_valentine

cnocbui wrote: »

That's the kitchen I started with when I bought my current house. At the time, banks would lend for the house and the cost of rennovation. Most people don't want the work involved, and that's their real objection. Have you personally applied for a loan for something that's a bit run-down, but livable in and which you could move in and fix up? Did the bank reject your application?

Datadude can give you an example from the applicant point of view.

I can give you some general perspective from the business point of view though. Since you bought this house, iirc 20 years ago, internal guidelines for risk single out kitchens and bathrooms as the benchmark for a habitable house, with implications for approval and LTV, especially for an FTB.

So we don't have any idea how willing people would be to work on fixer uppers because unless they're very well off they won't get loans to buy them.

cnocbui

Yurt! wrote: »

You expect the nursing population to up sticks and move for your one mythical 70k one bed in Limerick in a sh*tbox part of the city, where news items would have it, a number of gun murders have taken place?

Cnoc, the sooner you get on the plane to NZ and start bringing this nonsense to Kiwis on boards.nz the better.

*Precisely zero apartments have sold for that kind of money in Limerick since probably the mid 80s.

My ex bought a two bedroom house within walking distance of Limerick city centre for €100 K in 2013. You are not in touch with the market.

I have to agree with one thing you said, though, the sooner I can get on a plane and be out of here, the better, but the property market here grinds so unbelievably slowly it's going to take a while. That apartment which was offered at €70,000 is still sale agreed and not on the price register, 5 months after I saw the listing. I'm dying to know what it actually went for.

Yurt2

timmyntc wrote: »

How can a capital city function without most of those workers?
Cities need gardai, nurses, teachers - but yet these people dont get paid enough to afford to live in the cities. Its a bit perverse

Cnoc doesn't care. He's off to NZ to lecture young Kiwis about how 'that's just the way it is' and how he lived on marmite sandwiches with the electricity off to buy his first property in the bush back in ninteen dickitey eighty nine. Nothing but true grit and will. Didn't even have a dunny for the first two years.

Cnoc's the original self reliant frontiersman who never had a stroke of luck in his life. Everything he has came from the sweat of his brow and his calloused hands, and he he had to rip his dignity of the hands of 'the man' and the cruel taxman, who tried to take the bread out of his mouth.

This is facetious, but it's not a million miles away from how he thinks.

Yurt2

cnocbui wrote: »

My ex bought a two bedroom house within walking distance of Limerick city centre for €100 K in 2013. You are not in touch with the market.

I have to agree with one thing you said, though, the sooner I can get on a plane and be out of here, the better, but the property market here grinds so unbelievably slowly it's going to take a while. That apartment which was offered at €70,000 is still sale agreed and not on the price register, 5 months after I saw the listing. I'm dying to know what it actually went for.

100k at the point where the market had sh*t the bed in 2013 is not 70k in 2021, and is illustrative of the fact you're talking potty.

riclad

There is a reason there are companys like facebook, google etc based in ireland, they need offices in the eu to serve the european market and to comply with eu data retention gdpr rules.
why would they suddenly move to another european country,
say they move to france or italy, they would still need to pay prsi, insurance
taxs vat etc
i think we will see some companys move from the uk to ireland or another country since being outside the eu means its hard to process data or deal with eu customers due the the complex gdpr regulations on customer data.
in terms of taxs ,ireland is around the average in the league of western countrys .

jill_valentine

cnocbui wrote: »

My ex bought a two bedroom house within walking distance of Limerick city centre for €100 K in 2013. You are not in touch with the market.

You are accusing others of not being in touch with the current market with a comparison to a property bought about a decade ago during a recession. And it was still more expensive than the benchmark you were using before!

cnocbui

timmyntc wrote: »

How can a capital city function without most of those workers?
Cities need gardai, nurses, teachers - but yet these people dont get paid enough to afford to live in the cities. Its a bit perverse

In most circumstances, I suspect they get a partner and become housholds. As I said, this is pretty much everywhere in the OECD - people in such jobs seem to find ways to make it work, on average, otherwise there wouldn't be any such workers in Paris, London, Dublin, Sydney, Melbourne, Wellington, Auckland, San Francisco, Vancouver, etc.

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

I still want to know if you bought a house 20 years ago when you said they were only 2-3 times your then salary? I'm guessing you didn't - why didn't you? I have already posted links to examples of public sector workers in NZ leaving Auckland because they can't afford the housing, and to a recognition in London of the same problem. I dont expect you to do anything, I'm not living your life for you. Ther are public sector workers who have upskilled, changed jobs, moved to cheaper locations. I'm not insisting anyone do anything. I'm sure Paris is awash with Gendarmes who complain of not being able to afford Paris.

It's a major/capital city thing, Dublin isn't unique, it's the norm. In that 'your an old guy out of touch and you had it so easy mate' dig you like so much - that first house I bought - I was approaching my mid 30's and had saved double my then pre-tax annual wage as a deposit and, it was still only 60% of the very cheap house I bought which was nothing like average price. To get that saved, I didn't drink, smoke, go the pub and went on one holiday in the preceding decade that involved travelling by plane. Anything else was bargain basement camping trips. or just staying at home. I taught myself to fix my and my partners really cheap SH cars because I couldn't afford to pay a garage. If anything else broke, I fixed that too.

There seems to be an astonishing amount of hostility here towards any suggestion that doesn't involve some hand of god engineering of an entire 'unfair' property market to suit their means, and even more towards anyone suggesting they made sacrifices to make things work for them when the property market was so much fairer than it is now.

I have bought and sold two properties that I have lived in since then.
I am well able to fix things myself and am extremely sensible with my money, thanks.
I have no problem buying in Dublin personally.
But I'm not blind to the issues that younger people have starting out now, and they do have problems. Anyone dismissing them have their head somewhere it shouldn't be!!
And unfortunately not everyone gets to choose where they work believe it or not.

Personally I would prefer that my community was full of people who work here, who have ties to the area. The local teacher, nurses, gardai, I think it's a bonus that they live in The area where they work, instead of travelling a few hundred kilometres away to sleep for a few hours, then back.

There is something seriously wrong when those people cannot afford to live in areas of the city that they work in, but the state continue to pay rent and buy property for people who do not work in those areas.

cnocbui

jill_valentine wrote: »

You are accusing others of not being in touch with the current market with a comparison to a property bought about a decade ago during a recession. And it was still more expensive than the benchmark you were using before!

It wasn't a f'n one bedroom apartment, it was a two bedroom house, ffs!

Yurt2

cnocbui wrote: »

It wasn't a f'n one bedroom apartment, it was a two bedroom house, ffs!

In 2013, at close to the bottom of the market, in a historic recession where the banks were bleeding out and lending to more or less nobody.

Cnoc. You're out of touch.

jill_valentine

cnocbui wrote: »

It wasn't a f'n one bedroom apartment, it was a two bedroom house, ffs!

So you're accusing another poster of being out of touch with a comparison to a property bought about a decade ago during a recession, where your partner would have been offered a higher LTV than she would today for a one bedroom apartment.