2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

PropQueries

PropQueries wrote: »

Nice for the developer/fund you mean?

Indeed, nice for them as well. Not great for the old taxpayer but meh what can we do...

Marcusm

Cyrus wrote: »

ill ask you again, what specific crime was committed, what would you expect them to be charged with.

Im not saying it doesnt stink but this nonsense in comparing it to grandmothers going to jail for not paying a tv licence is just silly.

The one which should be considered is section 6 Crimimal Justice (Theft and Other Fraud Offences) Act 2001, ie causing a loss by deception. There are a number of factors required to ground the offence including dishonesty. No one really knows but the capacity (MiFID firm) and the basis (best result for the client) obligations don’t seem to have been met. The assertion in the civil claim that the owner tried to cancel the sale to avail of a better offer from another broker but was told he could not do so would all be factored that a criminal court would have to bear in mind. Given the prior reporting of the civil case, the poverty of management response etc, it is hard to see how it was not reported to Gardai for ass-covering purposes if nothing else.

Marcusm

Cyrus wrote: »

have to say, even though i like the aesthetic outside and the size is what you would want for that money, the interior (i mean the things that would be expensive to change) does nothing for me, stairs arent to my taste, nor is the sky light or that massive light installation.

Agree with you hear, what seems to be a fairly poor layout would not be simple to put right, nor inexpensive.

RichardAnd

PropQueries wrote: »

Given how many homes the councils are buying, leasing, renting or subsidising through HAP, there must be some formula they’re using here.

Are they just allowing developers to just put them up on MyHome.ie or Daft.ie at whatever price, calling this the “market price” and then printing this out to justify whatever insane purchase or lease price they “agree” for some future “audit” purposes?

Nothing seems right about what’s going on IMO

I'm sure there's a formula, but that doesn't mean that it's a good one. I would say that the price is whatever market value would apply plus extra to compensate the builder for the loss of the rental income over the next X number of years.

RichardAnd

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed, nice for them as well. Not great for the old taxpayer but meh what can we do...

We can rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic, which is also known as voting in the general election.

Cal4567

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm sure there's a formula, but that doesn't mean that it's a good one. I would say that the price is whatever market value would apply plus extra to compensate the builder for the loss of the rental income over the next X number of years.

https://www.opr.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/2017-Part-V-of-PD-Act-1.pdf

There is an existing use criteria. Page 12 of 20 here explains. My apologies. Up to my ears in work. No time to go into any detail.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed, nice for them as well. Not great for the old taxpayer but meh what can we do...

nor the young couple who are breaking their backs to get a mortgage on the apartment nextdoor

Hubertj

DataDude wrote: »

At what point would you become indifferent to additional m2 on a house (ignoring resale value)?

I think for me, in a two storey house, 275m2 is plenty. I think I’d actually be averse to >350m2 due to costs of heating and hassle keeping clean etc.

I agree. I think a house can be too big and lack “homeliness” if there aren’t enough people (adults + kids) living in it.
And as you say cleaning it just takes longer...

PropQueries

[Deleted User] wrote: »

nor the young couple who are breaking their backs to get a mortgage on the apartment nextdoor

But the state had the number of families on their housing waiting list 5 years ago. Did they start building homes for them?

Not really. But, what they did push was these “build-to-rent” schemes. Makes one wonder if that was the plan all along.

The only other conclusion is that they never really intended on solving the housing waiting list to begin with and that’s unlikely IMO

Cyrus

this:
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/sheemore-1-cunningham-road-dalkey-county-dublin/4495891, if it goes near its asking price,

puts the crazy ask for this (https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/26-knocknacree-park-dalkey-co-dublin-a96-k8r9/4490615) in context.

Total renovation needed but one of the best locations in dalkey outside the super prime roads and a fine big plot.

DataDude

Cyrus wrote: »

this:
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/sheemore-1-cunningham-road-dalkey-county-dublin/4495891, if it goes near its asking price,

puts the crazy ask for this (https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/26-knocknacree-park-dalkey-co-dublin-a96-k8r9/4490615) in context.

Total renovation needed but one of the best locations in dalkey outside the super prime roads and a fine big plot.

That’s a ridiculously high potential house. Price is well beyond my domain of expertise in terms of valuation, but would have expected it to be much more than €1.75m!

standardg60

Marcusm wrote: »

The one which should be considered is section 6 Crimimal Justice (Theft and Other Fraud Offences) Act 2001, ie causing a loss by deception. There are a number of factors required to ground the offence including dishonesty. No one really knows but the capacity (MiFID firm) and the basis (best result for the client) obligations don’t seem to have been met. The assertion in the civil claim that the owner tried to cancel the sale to avail of a better offer from another broker but was told he could not do so would all be factored that a criminal court would have to bear in mind. Given the prior reporting of the civil case, the poverty of management response etc, it is hard to see how it was not reported to Gardai for ass-covering purposes if nothing else.

The most sickening thing from the whole debacle is that the State somehow managed to cost us the taxpayer 26.1 million euro.
IBRC sold a loan of 18 million secured on 27 million euro worth of bonds in Anglo for 900k, then proceeded to pay out the full amount on the bonds when they became due in 2018.
Everyone else made money.
Kearney made 3 million out of a debt of 18?
Carval (who bought the loan from IBRC) recouped 2.3 million from it's 900k outlay, plus an unknown amount from Davy who settled when Carval sued them for not informing them of Kearney's sale of the bonds to Davy.
It is not known how much the consortium made, they paid 1/5 of the value of the bonds to begin with, and sold some straight away at a profit, but if any were held until they were paid out in full there was a serious windfall for some.

An idiot and his money are soon separated. Just ask the State.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

Totally agree having said that any government doing this will lose political ground as its the optics of throwing people out of their family home is something that the lefties have blown up out of all proportion in this country. Sinn Fein will be standing on the sidelines waiting and calling shame shame on the government for throwing family out. Ergo Turkeys dont vote for xmas and no government will do this.

Will do no problem
Couple TV shows about why mortgage rates are sky high in Ireland and people will break the windows of those who does not want pay mortgtage
Some explanation why banks leaving country
Dont forget who buy sandwiches for journalists and what is lobby groups
The next step will be bringing minimum wage to living wage level and there will be thousands on street shouting Make Leo a Taoiseach !
People has very short memory they does not even remember 2 days old events
And if Sinn Fein will open them mouth the answer will short We brought minimum wage to livin wage level when you was seating and doing nothing
Simple well known technologies

People said there never will be property tax in this country.Everybody pay it now no problem.

Timing belt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Will do no problem
Couple TV shows about why mortgage rates are sky high in Ireland and people will break the windows of those who does not want pay mortgtage
Some explanation why banks leaving country
Dont forget who buy sandwiches for journalists and what is lobby groups
The next step will be bringing minimum wage to living wage level and there will be thousands on street shouting Make Leo a Taoiseach !
People has very short memory they does not even remember 2 days old events
And if Sinn Fein will open them mouth the answer will short We brought minimum wage to livin wage level when you was seating and doing nothing
Simple well known technologies

People said there never will be property tax in this country.Everybody pay it now no problem.

Just maybe mortgage rates are so high compared to the rest of Europe because of the no of tracker mortgages we have...anyone taking out a new mortgage is subsiding these but it’s rarely talked about.....At the end of the day rates are so high due to greed whether it is the margins being charged or whether it is greed from the past..:. Yes not being able to reposes property has in impact but it’s not the only cause

Timing belt

Timing belt wrote: »

Just maybe mortgage rates are so high compared to the rest of Europe because of the no of tracker mortgages we have...anyone taking out a new mortgage is subsiding these but it’s rarely talked about.....At the end of the day rates are so high due to greed whether it is the margins being charged or whether it is greed from the past..:. Yes not being able to reposes property has in impact but it’s not the only cause

Because those who does not pay mortgages can not be thrown trough the door and house can not be sold to those who will pay !
That is the main reasons why those who pay mortgages has to pay for those who does not and that why banks are leaving !
That is the some of the main reasons why prices are high and people are homeless !
How will be rising price of the house when mortgage rate will be 2 or 0.5 per cent ? And market will be full of reposesed property ?
Who will take mortgage if he will know that he will lose job in month or two and will be thrown from house ? When now people hurry buy property because they know they will not thrown out ! What bringing property prices up !
Believe me I will vote for anybody who will bring my mortgage cost down ! I will not care about who loosing them home because cant or does not want to pay !
If you can not pay mortgage go to social housing ! And give your house to those who can pay that is the first !
The next every house has to have 1 house owner and property has to be registered to government register centre as car with log book !
Simply sign buy-sell contract in solicitor office get the log book of the house and move to the property within 3 days ! Same as in many countries ! Not in 1 year time as is in Ireland at the moment !

Paying lower mortgage rate house owners can spend more for other things what will move economy forward.Holidays,cars,furniture,kids education.
People who understand that will vote with smile on face for any politician who will throw people from houses if they cant pay for it !

Timing belt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because those who does not pay mortgages can not be thrown trough the door and house can not be sold to those who will pay !
That is the main reasons why those who pay mortgages has to pay for those who does not and that why banks are leaving !
That is the some of the main reasons why prices are high and people are homeless !
How will be rising price of the house when mortgage rate will be 2 or 0.5 per cent ? And market will be full of reposesed property ?
Who will take mortgage if he will know that he will lose job in month or two and will be thrown from house ? When now people hurry buy property because they know they will not thrown out ! What bringing property prices up !
Believe me I will vote for anybody who will bring my mortgage cost down ! I will not care about who loosing them home because cant or does not want to pay !
If you can not pay mortgage go to social housing ! And give your house to those who can pay that is the first !
The next every house has to have 1 house owner and property has to be registered to government register centre as car with log book !
Simply sign buy-sell contract in solicitor office get the log book of the house and move to the property within 3 days ! Same as in many countries ! Not in 1 year time as is in Ireland at the moment !

Paying lower mortgage rate house owners can spend more for other things what will move economy forward.Holidays,cars,furniture,kids education.
People who understand that will vote with smile on face for any politician who will throw people from houses if they cant pay for it !

It’s not the only reason for high rates...you could even blame the ECB for the high rates as the QE and negative rates impact the banks ability to generate capital so they charge higher margins....It’s a more complex than just repossession....yes repossession has a big impact but so do the other factors.

Timing belt

Timing belt wrote: »

It’s not the only reason for high rates...you could even blame the ECB for the high rates as the QE and negative rates impact the banks ability to generate capital so they charge higher margins....It’s a more complex than just repossession....yes repossession has a big impact but so do the other factors.

Why people has pay property tax in Ireland ?
Because government has pay bills for saving banks in 2009
Why government was saving banks ?
Because people stoped pay mortgages
Why people stopped pay mortgages ?
Because they knew that they can not be thrown trough the door
Why today we have shortage of houses ?
Because people can afford not pay mortgages
When you have to pay higher price of the car insurance ask them why and they will give you same answers.
More,there is more taxes on way for those who work hard to pay the bills.
You know why ? Because somebody can afford not go to work and not pay mortgage.
I dont care what Sinn Fein says that people can not be thrown from homes I care about my wallet and bread for my family on table ! In my house for which I pay !

Do you know mortgage rates in Denmark !? Negative! Or Zero !

hometruths

Timing belt wrote: »

It’s not the only reason for high rates...you could even blame the ECB for the high rates as the QE and negative rates impact the banks ability to generate capital so they charge higher margins....It’s a more complex than just repossession....yes repossession has a big impact but so do the other factors.

Surely that's the same for all Eurozone banks. Why would it cause our banks to charge higher margins than their European counterparts?

Hubertj

schmittel wrote: »

Surely that's the same for all Eurozone banks. Why would it cause our banks to charge higher margins than their European counterparts?

Is it to do with the additional capital requirements for Irish banks?

woejus

Cyrus wrote: »

puts the crazy ask for this

link was broken - this your boy? always liked that cul de sac of aspirational US style mini-mansions

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/26-knocknacree-park-dalkey-co-dublin-a96-k8r9/4490615

That Sheemore one, it's definitely priced to start a fight.

Nice elevated site, I always expected someone to assemble those four mid-century gaffs and demolish the lot.

Whenever Jesus loses his appeal, the two huge houses (Harvieston & Ardfallen) on the opposite corner will be interesting sales.

PropQueries

schmittel wrote: »

Surely that's the same for all Eurozone banks. Why would it cause our banks to charge higher margins than their European counterparts?

But do the banks really want easier repossessions?

They’ve sold off so many of their non-performing loans at this stage that if repossessions were made easier, the funds who bought them would flood the market with repossessed properties and collapse the property market and that would impact the banks even more so than easier repossessions.

I think the banks are going to milk whatever non-performing mortgages they have left on their books for all their worth to keep justifying ever higher charges, rates etc. when in reality it will be lack of competition and price gouging IMO

Hubertj

Hubertj wrote: »

Is it to do with the additional capital requirements for Irish banks?

Why you need additional capital requirements if everybody pay mortgages and you are overloaded with growing people savings ?

PropQueries

PropQueries wrote: »

But do the banks really want easier repossessions?

They’ve sold off so many of their non-performing loans at this stage that if repossessions were made easier, the funds who bought them would flood the market with repossessed properties and collapse the property market and that would impact the banks even more so than easier repossessions.

I think the banks are going to milk whatever non-performing mortgages they have left on their books for all their worth to keep justifying ever higher charges, rates etc. when in reality it will be lack of competition and price gouging IMO

Yes some of them sold and leaving country some left already.Danske,Halifax now Ulster and KBC.Because does not want create another non performing loans

Hubertj

Deleted User wrote: »

Why you need additional capital requirements if everybody pay mortgages and you are overloaded with growing people savings ?

Prior to COVID NPLs had fallen significantly and were heading towards the EU average so there was probs Bly a case then to look at easing the capital requirements. We would then have seen if interest rates were reduced. Less incentive now with what looks like less competition unless some of the digital banks decide to take a punt. Also have to assume NPLs will increase but you would hope the banks will address them in a more timely manner this time.

hometruths

Hubertj wrote: »

Is it to do with the additional capital requirements for Irish banks?

Yes. And the reason for the additional capital requirements is lack of repos.

hometruths

Hubertj wrote: »

Prior to COVID NPLs had fallen significantly and were heading towards the EU average so there was probs Bly a case then to look at easing the capital requirements. We would then have seen if interest rates were reduced. Less incentive now with what looks like less competition unless some of the digital banks decide to take a punt. Also have to assume NPLs will increase but you would hope the banks will address them in a more timely manner this time.

With regards to capital requirements I think it is the average recovery level from NPLs that is important, not the number of NPLs. Ours is less than 10% whereas the Eu average is about 50% IIRC.

That’s the number we need to get in line with the average if we want to argue about easing the capital requirements.

yagan

Aren't Credit Unions starting to issue mortgages?

Hubertj

schmittel wrote: »

With regards to capital requirements I think it is the average recovery level from NPLs that is important, not the number of NPLs. Ours is less than 10% whereas the Eu average is about 50% IIRC.

That’s the number we need to get in line with the average if we want to argue about easing the capital requirements.

Ah ok I wasn’t aware of the recovery % from reading up on it. Thank you.

boredatwork82

yagan wrote: »

Aren't Credit Unions starting to issue mortgages?

I enquired about this. Max was 150k and interest rate was something absurd like 4.6%

I really don't think they are a realistic option.

yagan

yagan wrote: »

Aren't Credit Unions starting to issue mortgages?

One of the credit unions that I'm a member of do mortgages, massive interest rates, I wouldn't even consider them.