2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

EddieN75

DataDude wrote: »

A couple of noteworthy comments from Michael Martin today after the Mullen Park debacle. Will be interesting to see if anything is actually done about it. If I was CEO of one of these funds, I think I'd be taking a breather from these deals for a few weeks in the hopes the fuss blows over!

"The purchase by institutional investors of completed housing estates is unacceptable and will be examined, Taoiseach Micheál Martin has insisted as the row intensified over the purchase by investment funds of the majority of homes in developments in north Dublin and Co Kildare.

“We do not want institutional investors competing with first-time buyers,” Mr Martin said. “Our priority is first-time buyers.”

He said that institutional investment was brought in “to add supply, not to displace supply, and that is the critical differential point”. They had to “distinguish between good capital and bad capital”.

Mr Martin also warned that local authorities should not be engaging in long-term leases with these investment funds.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/investors-buying-up-housing-estates-unacceptable-taoiseach-1.4556135

Empty words. You'd swear he is only after waking up after a 10 years in a coma. He like the rest of us have heard about investment and various other funds buying up properties.

Last year funds bought up 95% of all new build apartments. How did MM not hear of this before?
He is talking ****e.


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/just-8-000-houses-built-last-year-offered-for-sale-on-open-market-says-cif-1.4177876

An absolute scandal

Amadan Dubh

EddieN75 wrote: »

Empty words. You'd swear he is only after waking up after a 10 years in a coma. He like the rest of us have heard about investment and various other funds buying up properties.

Last year funds bought up 95% of all new build apartments. How did MM not hear of this before?
He is talking ****e.


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/just-8-000-houses-built-last-year-offered-for-sale-on-open-market-says-cif-1.4177876

An absolute scandal

My thoughts exactly, FF say anything depending on what way the media wind is blowing. They are directly supporting the policy which MM is talking about!

Has anyone met an actual FF voter under the age of 50? I think it is only a matter of time before they merge into FG in order to save themselves.

yagan

DataDude wrote: »

“We do not want institutional investors competing with first-time buyers,” Mr Martin said. “Our priority is first-time buyers.”

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And yet by this governments edict to councils he was effectively gazumping mortgage approved FTBers.

He's only sorry he was gazumped by the market distortion he created.

standardg60

DataDude wrote: »

A couple of noteworthy comments from Michael Martin today after the Mullen Park debacle. Will be interesting to see if anything is actually done about it. If I was CEO of one of these funds, I think I'd be taking a breather from these deals for a few weeks in the hopes the fuss blows over!

"The purchase by institutional investors of completed housing estates is unacceptable and will be examined, Taoiseach Micheál Martin has insisted as the row intensified over the purchase by investment funds of the majority of homes in developments in north Dublin and Co Kildare.

“We do not want institutional investors competing with first-time buyers,” Mr Martin said. “Our priority is first-time buyers.”

He said that institutional investment was brought in “to add supply, not to displace supply, and that is the critical differential point”. They had to “distinguish between good capital and bad capital”.

Mr Martin also warned that local authorities should not be engaging in long-term leases with these investment funds.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/investors-buying-up-housing-estates-unacceptable-taoiseach-1.4556135

Lol.
So is is now Government policy to let these houses rot because the investment funds are not playing fair?

Marius34

standardg60 wrote: »

Lol.
So is is now Government policy to let these houses rot because the investment funds are not playing fair?

Why rot? They have still an option to rent to private individuals or sell it.

DataDude

Cyrus wrote: »

lovely location here but the fact they have taken half the site to build a nice new build and left this house with a rubbish garden would put me off on a point on principal!

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/17-burrow-road-sutton-dublin-13/4339419

the People here have done it twice btw!

this house is built in the garden of their old gaff and they are now building a new build at the entrance to this one

https://www.sherryfitz.ie/buy/house/dublin/dalkey/bartra-cove-harbour-road-dalkey-co-dublin-691229

Both stunning houses - always thought Howth/Sutton were close enough to south side prices but have seen a few prime properties of late that make me thing otherwise. That one in Sutton being a good example.

Also thought this looked like a relative "bargain" if you think what it would go for in Dalkey. https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/16-asgard-park-howth-county-dublin/4466867

Hubertj

Cyrus wrote: »

lovely location here but the fact they have taken half the site to build a nice new build and left this house with a rubbish garden would put me off on a point on principal!

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/17-burrow-road-sutton-dublin-13/4339419

the People here have done it twice btw!

this house is built in the garden of their old gaff and they are now building a new build at the entrance to this one

https://www.sherryfitz.ie/buy/house/dublin/dalkey/bartra-cove-harbour-road-dalkey-co-dublin-691229

Must be the first post in a couple of days not expressing anger and outrage!

The gaff in Sutton doesn’t really do anything for me at all. I think The “narrowness” of it limits whatever renovations you might want to do etc.

The gaff in Dalkey is nice. Not mad about the kitchen though.

standardg60

Marius34 wrote: »

Why rot? They have still an option to rent to private individuals or sell it.

Do you think there's a market of private individuals here willing to sign 20/25 year leases?
I also doubt these funds would be interested in becoming directly responsible for maintenance etc., hence why they agreeing leases with councils whereby the council manages the properties.

hometruths

DataDude wrote: »

It's not the amount of money though, it's the principle. My parents thought "higher house prices = higher family wealth = good for my kids". Which seems to be the same view you have.

It's taken years, but my parents are finally realizing it's only good for them. But it's actually terrible for their kids. There's a misguided notion that passing on more money is the be all and end all of success. In reality, I've never seen inheritance cause anything but trouble in families.

You might have rationalized it that you don't mind your kids living with you indefinitely and that somehow higher house prices will be good for them (eventually). But I absolutely promise you your kids would prefer to make their own way in life rather than living in your shadow waiting for you to die or until they can pack you up into a nursing home. Financial planning your future around inheritance is incredibly toxic for all involved.

Your parents are to be commended, hopefully more and more realise this as they see their kids struggle now.

Another thing the older generation needs to realise that most of the paper property wealth they have is thanks to misguided government policies and not hard work, smarts, and an "I didn't get where I am today gorging on brunch" attitude.

Too many of them think they earned their property wealth, and why should they see it fall, just to assist those who cannot afford it.

Total nonsense, and a terribly short sighted attitude.

Marius34

standardg60 wrote: »

Do you think there's a market of private individuals here willing to sign 20/25 year leases?
I also doubt these funds would be interested in becoming directly responsible for maintenance etc., hence why they agreeing leases with councils whereby the council manages the properties.

No, that's why likely they would need to rent-out to private individuals without 25 years lease.

coolshannagh28

<MOD SNIP>

Mod Note

Please don't dump links without commentary/interpretation/opinion.

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i suspect these pension fund investors are actually using credit for the process, i.e. theyre borrowing the money, as rates are so low, but i could be wrong there

they borrow on the corporate debt markets i imagine ? and obviously for very low rates relative to what an individual BTL investor can get lending at here

C14N

yer man! wrote: »

The next election will be a burn the house down moment, I never considered Sinn Fein before, I cannot believe I am now contemplating them.

Honestly as frustrated as I am, I can't say the same. Sinn Fein always seem like a perpetual opposition party. They can moan and groan about the problems but I have never seen them propose an actual solution that would be effective, and they are openly against all property taxes, which doesn't bode well for them wanting to make the hard decisions of having existing homeowners shoulder some of the burden. I haven't seen anything from them that makes me think they'd do anything but make it worse.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

there has been countless respected advisors telling the government what to do, and more importantly, what not to do, over the years, they are not listening

ronan lyons yesterday:

'Five years ago, I appeared before the Oireachtas Committee on Housing, on how to implement 'A Right to a Home for All'. Unfortunately, it is as relevant today as then - perhaps unsurprisingly so, given its three key recommendations remain untouched'

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/committee_on_housing_and_homelessness/submissions/2016/2016-05-03_submission-dr-ronan-lyons-tcd_en.pdf

Ronan Lyons has, like virtually all economists,, been a big proponent of the land value tax, as mentioned at the start of this report. Sadly, no party seems interested in listening.

EddieN75 wrote: »

Empty words. You'd swear he is only after waking up after a 10 years in a coma. He like the rest of us have heard about investment and various other funds buying up properties.

Last year funds bought up 95% of all new build apartments. How did MM not hear of this before?
He is talking ****e.

There's a difference between what had largely been happening, which was entire blocks of apartments developed for investment funds as build-to-rent units, which arguably wouldn't have been developed in the first place without investment fund money, and an estate of houses specifically built for individual buyers getting suddenly swept up by a private investor. We weren't competing with them then, but now if they're poaching new builds meant for buyers, we suddenly are.

standardg60 wrote: »

I also doubt these funds would be interested in becoming directly responsible for maintenance etc., hence why they agreeing leases with councils whereby the council manages the properties.

That's not really true. I had previously rented directly from IRES, and while I wouldn't generally speak highly of them, they were pretty decent at addressing any maintenance issues I had. I don't even know for sure that this responsibility goes to the council instead when they rent out large numbers of units, although I can imagine they would at least feel less pressure to take care of things in time when they know they have a solid renter for 20 years no matter what they do.

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

lovely location here but the fact they have taken half the site to build a nice new build and left this house with a rubbish garden would put me off on a point on principal!

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/17-burrow-road-sutton-dublin-13/4339419

I'm not sure if your links are mixed up, but I can't see any issue with that at all. They had a massive site, so now they're probably living in a free house, by virtue of selling the other one. I'd do the same.

C14N

C14N wrote: »

Honestly as frustrated as I am, I can't say the same. Sinn Fein always seem like a perpetual opposition party. They can moan and groan about the problems but I have never seen them propose an actual solution that would be effective, and they are openly against all property taxes, which doesn't bode well for them wanting to make the hard decisions of having existing homeowners shoulder some of the burden. I haven't seen anything from them that makes me think they'd do anything but make it worse

In fairness, no matter what else they did, if they abolished local property tax, I'd say they'd be treated like a gold medal winner coming home from the olympics.


If they made that their lead promise to get voted in, you can be sure they'd be in like a light. My experience is that, although most will agree it's a good tax for the government (steady, reliable, always there, etc.) it's existence has angered, and still does anger, so, so many people.

Marcusm

standardg60 wrote: »

Do you think there's a market of private individuals here willing to sign 20/25 year leases?
I also doubt these funds would be interested in becoming directly responsible for maintenance etc., hence why they agreeing leases with councils whereby the council manages the properties.

Depends on the fund; being responsible for maintenance was a key attraction in The Alloance, Gasworks with Kennedy Wilson. Their Clancy Quay properties rely on a similar approach. I had a washing machine problem on a Thursday, replaced on Monday. I had a pump problem on Friday afternoon, fixed that evening. 100 or more properties in a site allow for a good maintenance team. Not for every property etc but they have a role in the market. I find the 3 bed semi estate unusual.

standardg60

Marcusm wrote: »

Depends on the fund; being responsible for maintenance was a key attraction in The Alloance, Gasworks with Kennedy Wilson. Their Clancy Quay properties rely on a similar approach. I had a washing machine problem on a Thursday, replaced on Monday. I had a pump problem on Friday afternoon, fixed that evening. 100 or more properties in a site allow for a good maintenance team. Not for every property etc but they have a role in the market. I find the 3 bed semi estate unusual.

I can certainly understand them providing maintenance to responsible private tenants in city centre apts., where there is naturally going to be demand for short term rental. Maybe i'm wrong but i don't see the same market for semi d's in Maynooth. I'd imagine some sort of deal with the LA is already in the pipeline in spite of MM's view, time will tell.

Sweet.Science

Marcusm wrote: »

Depends on the fund; being responsible for maintenance was a key attraction in The Alloance, Gasworks with Kennedy Wilson. Their Clancy Quay properties rely on a similar approach. I had a washing machine problem on a Thursday, replaced on Monday. I had a pump problem on Friday afternoon, fixed that evening. 100 or more properties in a site allow for a good maintenance team. Not for every property etc but they have a role in the market. I find the 3 bed semi estate unusual.

Yeah it's a strange one . All I can think of is they are looking for 20-30 year leases from local councils . Surely the well has to have run dry on entering these leases ? Eating up annual budgets for the next 30 years . How long will it be sustainable for .

Also with this being the big news story now the councils can't really agree to it now

hometruths

standardg60 wrote: »

I can certainly understand them providing maintenance to responsible private tenants in city centre apts., where there is naturally going to be demand for short term rental. Maybe i'm wrong but i don't see the same market for semi d's in Maynooth. I'd imagine some sort of deal with the LA is already in the pipeline in spite of MM's view, time will tell.

Given the county council were trying to buy them as well, I'd say a deal was nailed on. But you'd have to think MM's comments today has kiboshed that!

Topgear on Dave

standardg60 wrote: »

I can certainly understand them providing maintenance to responsible private tenants in city centre apts., where there is naturally going to be demand for short term rental. Maybe i'm wrong but i don't see the same market for semi d's in Maynooth. I'd imagine some sort of deal with the LA is already in the pipeline in spite of MM's view, time will tell.

University at one end of the town, large business park at the motorway, intel is just outside the town and is doing an enormous expansion. Regular morning commuter trains into town. A shortage of rentals already.
I reckon they'll rent no bother.

antimatterx

antimatterx wrote: »

1 beds where I live in Dublin have been going for around 220K and 230K over the last year or so. Not bad, but not great eitheir.

There's one that has just gone up today to €270K. That's absolute madness and I really hope it doesn't sell.

Down 20K in one day.

MacronvFrugals

Fianna Fáil really starting to panic if this IT article is anything to go by

Parliamentary party meeting hears calls for buyers to be limited to one property each

Mr Lahart also supported a call from Dublin Bay South TD Jim O’Callaghan to consider amending the affordable housing bill so that buyers of homes could only purchase a single property each.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-f%C3%A1il-is-drowning-in-shadows-of-fine-gael-housing-policy-party-told-1.4556407?mode=amp

antimatterx

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Fianna Fáil really starting to panic if this IT article is anything to go by







https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-f%C3%A1il-is-drowning-in-shadows-of-fine-gael-housing-policy-party-told-1.4556407?mode=amp

Good. I'm all for the free market, but we're at a crisis point in this country with housing. I agree with limiting purchases to one per buyer, and funds should not be allowed accumulate any further properties for the next 5 years.

It gives both the people and government breathing space.

Beigepaint

fliball123 wrote: »

The problem is that for all your ideals someone has to pay for them and the well of people being asked are already paying through the nose in taxation. Also we are more Animal Farm when it comes to our leftist ideals as in some animals are more equal than others. (public sector take a bow) Way too many vested interests both right and left learning sucking at the public purse. These issues need to be tackled. There is no way of tackling the issue of people not being able to afford houses without throwing up moral hazard and unforeseen consequences.

You are living in a rage fantasy and it is the responsibility of sensible people like me who comment in this thread to challenge you.

You understand that lots of people from all over the political spectrum read this thread eg. TD's staff, radio station researchers, interested citizens with money to invest and thousands of couples who wonder if they will afford to both buy a house AND have kids.

So while we have champagne communistic ideas everyone is equal no matter who pays for it and the capitalism cannot fail no matter the costs attitudes in this country coming from both sides. I dont see why I should help anyone else get a house. I am already paying my taxes into the 23 Billion paid out in social protection.

When you post things like this you are really flagging yourself as totally out of touch. We have never had a left government in this country and we have very few lefty policies. This is why our housing crisis is international news. New York Times Link. The small number of NEETs in this country is not something you should be in a lather about. Some people will never work. It's the same in every country. There are not that many people like that. Get over it. Stop worrying about it. Move on.

Why do you or others think that its on current home owners to house everyone? Do you all think that as a home owner or a group of home owner we can all get together and say lets half our property price for the greater good?

Politicians watch the demographics and they know that eventually the people in my generation who are locked out of property will reach a critical mass and then they will start pandering to us.
Probably another ten years to go. Until then, the older people 60+ will be taken care of at the expense of my generation.

My dream is that non rich people will once again be able to afford to get married, have kids and buy houses before they are 30.

I'm 32, so I missed out on that, but I would like my younger sister who is 20, and my younger work colleagues to have the opportunities that my parents had in the 80s.

combat14

looks like regular fine gael tds starting to wake up and smell the coffee for the next election if they dont sort housing out .. and fast......

interesting to see comments about traditional fine gael voters now liking sinn fein housing comments being flagged as a deep concern by the party

varadker not so much... he still loves the investment vulture firms ..


‘They are gunning for him’: Housing Minister criticised at Fine Gael meeting as Leo Varadkar defends investment funds



some ff tds now touting limits of one house purcahse per person .. if that comes in could see mass exodus considered by some investment firms here as govt intervention becomes a step too far..?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/they-are-gunning-for-himhousing-minister-criticised-at-fine-gael-meeting-as-leo-varadkar-defends-investment-funds-40391705.html

yagan

Beigepaint wrote: »

Probably another ten years to go. Until then, the older people 60+ will be taken care of at the expense of my generation.

Parents who've had adult offspring move back in with them won't be pleased with the borked market either.

After yesterday many government TDs will be feeling sorry the old issues are back with a bang as Covid starts receding.

tommyombomb

God as a potential first time buyer in 12 months time, i am getting excited by the prospect of something finally happening.

Annoyed with government big time saying something needs to be done. They are the gov ffs. Need to sort their **** out or else we will have SF driving the bus fairly soon

combat14

tommyombomb wrote: »

God as a potential first time buyer in 12 months time, i am getting excited by the prospect of something finally happening.

Annoyed with government big time saying something needs to be done. They are the gov ffs. Need to sort their **** out or else we will have SF driving the bus fairly soon

they have had 10+ years ...their time is running out if they dont start builiding like there is no tomorrow

Ursabear

What happens after the 25 year leases are up for the people on HAP if they are still in need of assistance and if the country cannot to pay the high rents that they have agreed to anymore ( if prices and rents keep rising). That's when I think the pension timebomb also explodes?

Hubertj

Beigepaint wrote: »

You are living in a rage fantasy and it is the responsibility of sensible people like me who comment in this thread to challenge you.

You understand that lots of people from all over the political spectrum read this thread eg. TD's staff, radio station researchers, interested citizens with money to invest and thousands of couples who wonder if they will afford to both buy a house AND have kids.



When you post things like this you are really flagging yourself as totally out of touch. We have never had a left government in this country and we have very few lefty policies. This is why our housing crisis is international news. New York Times Link. The small number of NEETs in this country is not something you should be in a lather about. Some people will never work. It's the same in every country. There are not that many people like that. Get over it. Stop worrying about it. Move on.



Politicians watch the demographics and they know that eventually the people in my generation who are locked out of property will reach a critical mass and then they will start pandering to us.
Probably another ten years to go. Until then, the older people 60+ will be taken care of at the expense of my generation.

My dream is that non rich people will once again be able to afford to get married, have kids and buy houses before they are 30.

I'm 32, so I missed out on that, but I would like my younger sister who is 20, and my younger work colleagues to have the opportunities that my parents had in the 80s.

Getting married and havin kids under 30 is too young. Have a bit of fun first.