2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

Bass Reeves

DataDude wrote: »

To play devils advocate on this one..
I read a lot of people on this forum and the buying forum in the €200k-€500k range getting repeatedly outbid on properties and being very frustrated by this. Much of the angst is being focused on Cuckoo Funds but also AHBs and LAs likely being the outbidders and therefore someone who didn’t ‘earn’ the house getting it ahead of them. Very frustrating. I completely understand that, I’d be frustrated too. And I can completely understand the feeling of ‘we both have good jobs, we’re borrowing the max 3.5x. We’re not looking for a mansion. How can we keep being outbid. This ain’t fair’

However, statistically it is far far far more likely (if 70% of FTBers have gifts) that you’ve just been outbid by someone with a chunkier gift than you. But that doesn’t seem to bother people?
Is it better to ‘lose out your dream home to someone who didn’t earn it’ when that person has rich parents (gifted) vs when that person doesn’t have wealthy parents (AHB/LA).

If I was in that boat, I’d see it as the same. But the emotional response is far far stronger against the ‘undeserving owners’….without wealthy parents.

TBH what you are spouting is a form of rubbish. The two main reason why people get out bid are that firstly we are not build enough houses and apartments and secondly the cost of building houses and particularly in Dublin is very high. What was a Dublin supply problem is transferring right across the country as excess supply build pre the 2008 crash is now used up.

There are a number of reasons we are not building enough houses and the demand is for houses mainly. Finance to build apartments and houses is hard to access for developers. Those that can access it can charge a premium for the product they supply. Demand is exacerbated by an issue we have with social housing. Councils exited the provision of it due to high maintenance costs which they were providing inhouse and having no recourse where tenants deliberately damaged houses. When houses were vacated refurbishment costs were astronomical. Councils transferred that work to private LL's through HAP.

Any parent will try to help there child in any way possible. Is it unfair that some parents pay for grinds in subjects that there children struggle at. Is it unfair that parents pay for extra curricular activities which may give there children an advantage maybe accessing work or it gives them extra skills later in life. Is it unfair that children in larger cities will finds it easier to access third level as accommodation costs will not be as big a factor as for parents not from these area's. Is it fair that maybe as business person you can put a 16 or 17 year old on the payroll to help fund there education. In general life can be considered fair or unfair but any parent will do what ever they can for there child. If that parent has saved that money by being prudent maybe not doing up there own house to the latest fad, driving an older car, being a moderate drinker, not going to expensive sports events or concerts surely its a choice that they make.

But b!tching about parent's that wants to help there children out by giving them help with a deposit or bridging the gap between what the bank will give them and the house costs will solve nothing as its a supply issue we have at preset. A few months there was a PPP housing scheme shot down by LA councillors in the Dublin as not enough houses allotted to social housing things like that are more o blame than anything.

People in Germany all live spending in rented property
And finish them days in nursing home
Nothing wrong with that
Or you pay mortgage or rent and finish same way as in Ireland I dont see anything wrong
Please dont tell me about in Ireland you will have your own house when you pay mortgage
There is matter of time when those who has difficulties to pay mortgage in Ireland will be thrown trough the door on street and will finish them days in nursing home.
At same time when tens of thousands of those who cant pay has problem already

Bass Reeves

Idbatterim wrote: »

If you were in the usa, Germany, uk, anywhere properly run and taxed, you would be paying way higher rates of lpt. You also wouldn't be thieved at outrageous rates of marginal tax. At current rates here, I'd scrap it, scrap it or implement proper rates, worth collecting...

Yes but for that LPT you will get a certain amount of services. While you will have a lower marginal rate in the UK your will have to fund your children's education fees 5-7K/year more expensive than Ireland. If your kids work through college at the minimum rate like Ireland the rate is about 60-70% of the Irish rate and they will pay tax on it. Your OAP will only be about 60% of the Irish rate. Faraway hills always look green.

KBH2020

DataDude wrote: »

To play devils advocate on this one..
I read a lot of people on this forum and the buying forum in the €200k-€500k range getting repeatedly outbid on properties and being very frustrated by this. Much of the angst is being focused on Cuckoo Funds but also AHBs and LAs likely being the outbidders and therefore someone who didn’t ‘earn’ the house getting it ahead of them. Very frustrating. I completely understand that, I’d be frustrated too. And I can completely understand the feeling of ‘we both have good jobs, we’re borrowing the max 3.5x. We’re not looking for a mansion. How can we keep being outbid. This ain’t fair’

However, statistically it is far far far more likely (if 70% of FTBers have gifts) that you’ve just been outbid by someone with a chunkier gift than you. But that doesn’t seem to bother people?
Is it better to ‘lose out your dream home to someone who didn’t earn it’ when that person has rich parents (gifted) vs when that person doesn’t have wealthy parents (AHB/LA).

If I was in that boat, I’d see it as the same. But the emotional response is far far stronger against the ‘undeserving owners’….without wealthy parents.

I think it is easier to digest if you think it was another FTB as most likely they too have worked hard, saved hard, etc, if they got the extra 5k that pushes them into winning bidder, so be it. You are in the same category as them and they have now been removed as your competition for future houses. You might be the person with the extra 5k on the next house.

To think of our own state (AHB/LA's) actively bidding against FTB is what I find hard to swallow. We are working professionals and we are being told the government "supports" our dream to buy a home. To know that the state is bidding against us and so playing an active role in keeping us out of homes is so horrendous...It is our income tax that goes into this kind of public expenditure. It leads many to think they would be better off not working and that is absolutely awful and in some cases, probably true. The state should be building their own houses and not buying from the private market or it should at least be restricted imo. Knowing you could have been outbid by the state/vulture fund is devastating, you are left thinking "will they outbid me on the next house I am interested in too, is there any hope"? They are super charged competition with a budget not even comparable to yours.

hometruths

DataDude wrote: »

That said, if I was a median income FTB couple, and I could stop one thing to try give me a fair shot at buying a house in Dublin right now...I think it'd be the gifts. I reckon they have an absolutely unbelievable inflationary impact on prices. Probably more so than LA/AHBs given they push up the highest value houses as where as LA/AHBs are somewhat capped in what they can do (although the upper limit seems to be growing)

Fair point, but I think maybe you're looking at this again through the what's best for DataDude lens, rather than what's going on the wider market. I'm sure that family wealth has a far bigger impact in your segment of the market than LAs and AHBs!

If I was in your shoes it would not be the gifts that would bother me, it would be the arrears. There are 1000s of people living in houses that you would dearly love to buy and could comfortably afford yet they're not paying for them. You and I are through increased taxes and increased interest rates.

I suspect that has a far greater impact on your situation than the bank of mum and dad.

In the context of the wider market it also bugs me far more than the cuckoo funds. At least the cuckoo funds are making a net positive contribution to the economy.

DataDude wrote: »

Don't agree with your comment "there's always somebody richer than you" as it doesn't equate to "there's always somebody with richer parents than your parents" which is what in means in this context. One is in your control, the other isn't. I don't think people should be given the benefit on their parents success..because I don't think it's fair to punish people for their parents failures. Can't have one without the other.

I understand your points, but fundamentally disagree with this. It's an evolutionary realism that people reap the rewards of their parents success and vice versa. We are have arrived at the privileged position of debating whether parents should help their kids buy houses in SCD, precisely because the kids of the best hunter gatherers reaped the rewards of their parents success!

If you believe that people should not have the benefit of their parents success, the alternative is to confiscate all wealth at death which would have profoundly damaging unintended consequences.

Dav010

[Deleted User] wrote: »

People in Germany all live spending in rented property
And finish them days in nursing home
Nothing wrong with that
Or you pay mortgage or rent and finish same way as in Ireland I dont see anything wrong
Please dont tell me about in Ireland you will have your own house when you pay mortgage
There is matter of time when those who has difficulties to pay mortgage in Ireland will be thrown trough the door on street and will finish them days in nursing home.
At same time when tens of thousands of those who cant pay has problem already

The issue with renting for life is that at the time when earnings decrease, retirement, rent will likely continue to increase. With increased life expectancy, that leaves a considerable amount of time that rent has to be paid out of savings. On the other hand, most mortgages do not exceed retirement age, so at retirement, mortgages are repaid, therefore decreased cost of living coincides with retirement if you own your own home.

Timmyr

cnocbui wrote: »

So most people don't apply for a motgage to buy a house until their parents die? I somehow doubt that. Ireland already has amongst the highest inheritance taxes in the world, if not the highest.

I have never seen any suggestion inheritances are distorting the housing markets in Australia or NZ, and neither of them have any inheritance taxes.

I was on my third house when my parents died.

Parents allowing their children to stay in the family home and save a large deposit for a mortgage is also 'unfair' assistance. We need a tax to target that heinous and unfair distortion and tax it out of existence.

I live in NZ and inheritances are 100000% distorting the housing market

I am a first home buyer trying to battle other first home buyers with generational wealth

In countries where renting is the traditional "normal" thing to do, what exactly does happen at retirement?

Like, do people of working age pay a tad more in rent to subsidise a lower rent for those retired? Otherwise I'm assuming we'd be seen massive numbers of homeless pensioners around the world where renting is the norm?

cnocbui

DataDude wrote: »

But I don't want to pay over €100k in income taxes every year. I'm very comfortable taking my full gross salary. Why should I pay income tax when Amazon doesn't pay Corporation Tax. Classic whataboutery.

Because societies work on a collective decision on what's best for everyone, not the individual. I absolutely HATE the level of income taxes we pay here, I complain about them all the time and wish they were lower...but when property taxes are mentioned people go on as if it's a personal assault on their entire existence as people...nope, it's just another way of distributing wealth, we have tonnes of them and relative to peers we lag way behind on property taxes and are far ahead of income taxes. And the best thing about property tax, the only way you can avoid them is by selling up (grand) - whereas income taxes remove the incentive to work (bad).

I understood the original intent was to us LPT to force people to downsize. I took that to mean it would somehow be varied - ie, increased - for empty nesters. If you aren't doing that, then you are not adding anything particularly punative towards someone like me, sufficient to encourage me to behave as you would like me to. If the LPT is the same for everyone, FTBers included, then have at it.

Have you lived in other countries and paid these higher rates of property tax? I have, and, for instance, the council provided an efficient and convenient rubbish collection service, maintained roads in good order, and so on. The LPT rates are higher, but you get a lot more for them.

Bass Reeves

Deleted User wrote: »

In countries where renting is the traditional "normal" thing to do, what exactly does happen at retirement?

Like, do people of working age pay a tad more in rent to subsidise a lower rent for those retired? Otherwise I'm assuming we'd be seen massive numbers of homeless pensioners around the world where renting is the norm?

People end up often moving considerable distances to access cheaper to rent property. Some people move to mobile homes. Housing in warmer climates is not such a serious issue. Heating is not such an issue, houses do not need to be build to the same specifications as Ireland. In some countries where a large porportion of the population rent, populations are static and not growing like Ireland

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

The issue with renting for life is that at the time when earnings decrease, retirement, rent will likely continue to increase. With increased life expectancy, that leaves a considerable amount of time that rent has to be paid out of savings. On the other hand, most mortgages do not exceed retirement age, so at retirement, mortgages are repaid, therefore decreased cost of living coincides with retirement if you own your own home.

Same as paying mortgage
Once ECB bring rate up what will lift ammount of mortgage which you have a pay when your wage stay unchanged or value of wage falling down due with inflation.

cnocbui

Idbatterim wrote: »

If you were in the usa, Germany, uk, anywhere properly run and taxed, you would be paying way higher rates of lpt. You also wouldn't be thieved at outrageous rates of marginal tax. At current rates here, I'd scrap it, scrap it or implement proper rates, worth collecting...

I'd also be paying less or no inheritance tax, lower rates of CGT, lower VAT, no artificial levies on all forms of insurance, far, far lower vehicle ownership costs, no TV licence, lower property transaction costs, etc, etc.

Just between you and me, I'm planning to sell all my property ASAP, so with any luck, I won't actually be preventing you from having at what's mine. Happy now?

Dav010

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Same as paying mortgage
Once ECB bring rate up what will lift ammount of mortgage which you have a pay when your wage stay unchanged or value of wage falling down due with inflation.

Mortgage interest rates are unlikely to increase by 4% per year though and wage drop due to inflation would also affect ability to pay rent. Given that the life expectancy is now into the 80s, that could leave 20 years renting with only income being the state pension in many cases. Also, nursing homes are very expensive, having a property to sell or to use in the fair deal scheme is very beneficial to cover costs.

DataDude

schmittel wrote: »

Fair point, but I think maybe you're looking at this again through the what's best for DataDude lens, rather than what's going on the wider market. I'm sure that family wealth has a far bigger impact in your segment of the market than LAs and AHBs!

If I was in your shoes it would not be the gifts that would bother me, it would be the arrears. There are 1000s of people living in houses that you would dearly love to buy and could comfortably afford yet they're not paying for them. You and I are through increased taxes and increased interest rates.

Oh believe me, the arrears frustrate the hell outta me too! Can't see anyone grasping that nettle though sadly.

schmittel wrote: »

I understand your points, but fundamentally disagree with this. It's an evolutionary realism that people reap the rewards of their parents success and vice versa. We are have arrived at the privileged position of debating whether parents should help their kids buy houses in SCD, precisely because the kids of the best hunter gatherers reaped the rewards of their parents success!

I have a couple of very successful friends from underprivileged backgrounds. I look forward to telling them they can never be as well off as me because my dad is a better hunter gatherer than their dad (in reality my dad lucked out and bought property at the right time!)...but I take your point!

MacronvFrugals

When we talk about multiple banks leaving etc would the Taoiseach just admitting the below to the paper of record not spook many relying on the property market in one way or the other

“The State actually through one scheme or another is the big actor now in housing provision and what was announced last week by the Minister [Darragh O’Brien] relates to affordable housing,” he said.

Wasn’t Props called a conspiracy theorist for stating exactly what the Taoiseach said


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/housing-is-number-one-crisis-facing-young-people-taoiseach-1.4559764?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true

hometruths

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

When we talk about multiple banks leaving etc would the Taoiseach just admitting the below to the paper of record not spook many relying on the property market in one way or the other






Wasn’t Props called a conspiracy theorist for stating exactly what the Taoiseach said


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/housing-is-number-one-crisis-facing-young-people-taoiseach-1.4559764?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true

Props has been called a conspiracy theorist a number of times for stating things that have later been reported in the paper.

He’s uncharacteristically quiet at the minute, has he been banned again?

MacronvFrugals

schmittel wrote: »

Props has been called a conspiracy theorist a number of times for stating things that have later been reported in the paper.

He’s uncharacteristically quiet at the minute, has he been banned again?

I would certainly hope not a fair amount has turned out to true, for the things that weren’t they’re mostly reasonable arguments

Beigepaint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What the problem ?
If you been outbid at 500K property in Dublin
Buy 230K property in County Louth and 2 Scoda Kodiaq saving another 190K for new furniture
You will spend same time on motorway as in trafic to your property in Dublin.
Ach,sorry,property in County Louth does not sound great in Dublin.Then we heading another problem there.
I have serious problem at the moment.I want buy Ferrari for 2000 euros and I cant find it.Something wrong with supply ! Government has seriously work on it !

This possible solution to the housing crisis that we should all just commute from places we don’t want to live in - and have no connection to - is so bizarre and stupid when you consider the vast areas of unused and underused land inside the M50.

The carbon taxes and fines are really gonna start slamming us in the next few years and your advice to me is to lay off the avacado toast, stop buying cappuccinos and move to Portlaoise.

How selfish of me to want to live in a city where using public transport is pleasant and sensible.

A modern country is one where people don’t need podcasts to cope with their two + hours of driving every day.

mcsean2163

https://mobile.twitter.com/davidhall75/status/1391337747223392261

Backlash against conor Skehan.

Hubertj

https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/michael-brennan-a-plague-on-both-your-houses-mullen-park-is-a-warning-to-ff-and-fg-55d3ec5d

This is a good article by Michael Brennan. Does anyone know what the EU rules on capital spending actually are? Article refers to “ The government is still trying to avoid breaching EU financial rules, which limit how much the state can spend on capital projects such as housing.”

If this is the case would it mean other capital projects have to be dropped? What would they be?

Amadan Dubh

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-why-did-it-take-a-kildare-housing-estate-to-wake-up-government-1.4559746?mode=amp

Una Mullally: Why did it take a Kildare housing estate to wake up Government?

It wasn’t just the investment funds buying up apartments in Dublin. Or the luxury purpose-built student accommodation littering our landscape. Or the co-living developments. Or the homelessness. Or the upwardly spiralling rents. Or Airbnb sucking housing stock out of cities. Or urban dereliction. Or land-hoarding. Or the lack of public housing being built. Or the mini-bubbles that keep inflating in certain areas where house prices are rising.

Or developers trying to sell entire blocks of apartments to tech companies. Or those forced to live in their parents’ homes well into adulthood because they can’t afford rent. Or the corporate gentrification. Or aparthotels being built where housing should be. Or the new wave of emigration instigated by a lack of rent affordability.

Investment funds have been buying up houses and apartments in bulk for years. It’s policy. Reits – real estate investment trusts – are a scourge. Ordinary people can’t compete. That a housing estate in Maynooth became a target for global capital, is, according to Taoiseach Micheál Martin, “unacceptable”. What about everything else? Why is this a tipping point?

Global capital both supersedes and usurps the power of a state, unless that state is wise to such forces and embeds protections and shields. But instead of re-enforcing our resilience around housing, Fine Gael weakened it. Our housing policy was handed over to “the market” and now that market is eating us. Global capital is doing what it does.

It’s hard to know which is worse, but it is what has happened. Fine Gael’s ideology, in particular, seems so embedded that they cannot even recognise it themselves, and instead whine about the “ideology” of others who are simply offering solutions rooted in fairness.

And a lot of this comes down to fairness, which is a core value in Irish society. The housing game is rigged, and people are sick of politicians’ “don’t ask me, I just work here” stance on housing. All that’s left to do is watch the political consequences play out, which is simply a matter of time.

I find myself agreeing with Úna Mullally which is disturbing me, but I can finally see the pressure on the housing crisis (we need to remember that the market is in crisis - an intense time of difficulty - with the last 9 years being evidence of a destructive market and not a recovered one) come from wider circles and also see how strong the pressure is.


The last paragraph from Úna is correct, we will see populism rise in Ireland and the FFG parties get obliterated if this issue is not resolved; the issue being resolved by supply increasing dramatically but also rents dropping substantially (my own view would be at least 40% off their current averages) and house prices correcting (less than 40% as I don't think a lot of the market needs much more than 15/20% off its value) - until it is accepted what the outcome needs to be (price drops), things won't change.

combat14

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-why-did-it-take-a-kildare-housing-estate-to-wake-up-government-1.4559746?mode=amp



I find myself agreeing with Úna Mullally which is disturbing me, but I can finally see the pressure on the housing crisis (we need to remember that the market is in crisis - an intense time of difficulty - with the last 9 years being evidence of a destructive market and not a recovered one) come from wider circles and also see how strong the pressure is.


The last paragraph from Úna is correct, we will see populism rise in Ireland and the FFG parties get obliterated if this issue is not resolved; the issue being resolved by supply increasing dramatically but also rents dropping substantially (my own view would be at least 40% off their current averages) and house prices correcting (less than 40% as I don't think a lot of the market needs much more than 15/20% off its value) - until it is accepted what the outcome needs to be (price drops), things won't change.

its coming only a matter of time and FG (and FF who will probably suffer even more) have done it to themselves

people have enough - they want fair houses again not this vulture fund nonsense that leo varadker in particular espouses

Villa05

Amadan Dubh wrote:

I find myself agreeing with Úna Mullally which is disturbing me, but I can finally see the pressure on the housing crisis (we need to remember that the market is in crisis - an intense time of difficulty - with the last 9 years being evidence of a destructive market and not a recovered one) come from wider circles and also see how strong the pressure is.

The answer to una's question is that it's the sons and daughters of ffg target voters that are affected

RichardAnd

combat14 wrote: »

its coming only a matter of time and FG (and FF who will probably suffer even more) have done it to themselves

people have enough - they want fair houses again not this vulture fund nonsense that leo varadker in particular espouses

Whilst I'd happily see the back of the current political parties, I do wonder what would really change. Let's say, for example, there is an election this year and the existing paradigm is utterly wiped out. Will things change? Consider that behind those in the Dail, there is an army of civil servants who are full of ideologies, many NGOs, interest groups and "think tanks" who will push an agenda and let's not forget banks. Given that these cohorts never change, would a radical change in the Dail really do much?

This is a genuine question that I often ask myself. I don't have an answer.

Amadan Dubh

Villa05 wrote: »

The answer to una's question is that it's the sons and daughters of ffg target voters that are affected

A lot of older home owners (like my parents) lamented not selling during the Celtic Tiger as they always planned on selling. Then when prices corrected after '08 they held off. In recent years they were just watching the recovery and their house price go up again and I never understood what they were waiting for. Maybe prices to get back up close to Celtic Tiger levels? There was always a reason not to sell for them, maybe they didn't want to miss out on getting a higher price a few months later? Whatever it was I just thought it was mad that they would not cash in a mortgage free house for the apparent price it was worth and now I (and they) feel that they have missed the boat to cash in their house for what they could've gotten even 2 years ago (south Dublin). For the direction of travel from here onwards will be to implement policies that try to correct the housing market which, as we know, must have an outcome to drop prices and rents in order for the electorate to be content. It feels like there is now a generational shift in progress which is going to start to look to claw back that wealth from those older people, like my parents and others, in order to ensure a more equitable distribution across housing market stakeholders.

Hubertj

RichardAnd wrote: »

Whilst I'd happily see the back of the current political parties, I do wonder what would really change. Let's say, for example, there is an election this year and the existing paradigm is utterly wiped out. Will things change? Consider that behind those in the Dail, there is an army of civil servants who are full of ideologies, many NGOs, interest groups and "think tanks" who will push an agenda and let's not forget banks. Given that these cohorts never change, would a radical change in the Dail really do much?

This is a genuine question that I often ask myself. I don't have an answer.

Yep. You still have the same public servants implementing whatever policy in introduced. With a lack of competency and no accountability.....
Although, I’m sure SF will take direction from McFeely when it comes to changes to building regs ðŸ˜႒

Sweet.Science

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

A lot of older home owners (like my parents) lamented not selling during the Celtic Tiger as they always planned on selling. Then when prices corrected after '08 they held off. In recent years they were just watching the recovery and their house price go up again and I never understood what they were waiting for. Maybe prices to get back up close to Celtic Tiger levels? There was always a reason not to sell for them, maybe they didn't want to miss out on getting a higher price a few months later? Whatever it was I just thought it was mad that they would not cash in a mortgage free house for the apparent price it was worth and now I (and they) feel that they have missed the boat to cash in their house for what they could've gotten even 2 years ago (south Dublin). For the direction of travel from here onwards will be to implement policies that try to correct the housing market which, as we know, must have an outcome to drop prices and rents in order for the electorate to be content. It feels like there is now a generational shift in progress which is going to start to look to claw back that wealth from those older people, like my parents and others, in order to ensure a more equitable distribution across housing market stakeholders.

Do they have more than one property ? Makes little sense holding out for higher prices if you have to buy another yourself

fliball123

hmmm wrote: »

I can't get my head around the social housing bodies competing on the market with private purchasers.

Private purchasers are paying tax, which is then being lavished on these bodies who are competing for property with the people paying the tax. It seems designed to funnel taxpayers funds from workers into the hands of property owners.

And if this is happening under a FG/FF government, what happens in a hard-left government?

I think you mean the houses are being funneled to the unemployed, REITS and Vulture funds. Property owners other than these pay through the nose for their property

Bass Reeves

RichardAnd wrote: »

Whilst I'd happily see the back of the current political parties, I do wonder what would really change. Let's say, for example, there is an election this year and the existing paradigm is utterly wiped out. Will things change? Consider that behind those in the Dail, there is an army of civil servants who are full of ideologies, many NGOs, interest groups and "think tanks" who will push an agenda and let's not forget banks. Given that these cohorts never change, would a radical change in the Dail really do much?

This is a genuine question that I often ask myself. I don't have an answer.

I think that those that think that a change in government is a magic bullet are in for a shock. I do not really blame public servants either. We have a simple problem we need 50k houses yesterday and 20-25k year for the next few years.

I think that the construction industry is limited to 20-25k houses per year labour wise. The industry has shrunk over the last 10 years. The financial's needed are more complex in bigger development's which has parked mid sized operations at present.

During the last building boom we were able to attract relatively cheap eastern European labour and we had a lot of skilled labour return from abroad in the early noughties. There is no valve this time that will satisfy this.

I coached GAA for the last 15 years. Of the young lads I knew from it. ( Somewhere in the 150+) I think about a half dozen did trades, however an older lad that was trained in a trade went away and did nursing. There are a good few lads trained as QS"s, Civils or in Construction site management. But none of them can wire or plumb houses or lay blocks.

If SF get into power and redirect labour to building social housing will the new house construction numbers shrink. Will labour transfer into extensions to existing houses. There is no magic bullet

fliball123

Villa05 wrote: »

If we had common sense policies

We would build housing on state land and restore the supply demand imbalance. Current policy ensures taxpayers pay more tax, rent, mortgages. Employers are under pressure to pay more wages thus reducing competitiveness

We had the same issue with medicine not so long ago with the state paying maximum price for branded medicine with cheaper substitutes discouraged to facilitate vested interests

After the last crash I do remember large queue's forming for McDonald s jobs
When we are close to full employment it might be popular soundbite but I don't think it is those at the bottom that responsible for the countries ills

The problem here is how much will that cost to build these houses your talking about. The public sector don't do cheap and really don't do cheap when it comes to things like procurement and building look at the children's hospital for an example and who pays for it we are already borrowing at ridiculous rates. We will need more money for the HSE next year, also the Public service are due 2 more payrises between now and the end of next year. The latter also has the knock on effect that existing PS retirees get more as well. If corporation tax gets cut and if Ireland lose more jobs and dont bounce back in the next 18/24 months, we could be borrowing anywhere up to 30 Billion in the near future to cover our expenses. The government should just stop interfering in the market stop FTB grants and all other monies supplied to welfare and let the market find its proper price point. Anything other than that is further muddying the water. The tax payer is all ready bleeding cash for a system that just does not work so why should anyone be confident that they could start building houses. REITS and Vultures need to be taxed like an employee. 51% back to the state after they earn the AIW.

I have been banging on for years on here about how the (the LEFT) poor are handed things working people dont get and cant afford and (the RIGHT) the rich don't like paying with their own money and its left to the squeezed middle to pay for it all. Our current housing mess is now a glaring reflection of how both sides manage to hoist expense onto the middle class. Watch out for tax increases and property tax increases for those in the middle ye know those getting up in the morning (mr Varadkar) for the handouts to the poor and the REITS/Vulture funds when it comes to housing