2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

Timing belt

PropQueries wrote: »

People already living here don't add to demand as they're already housed. If they stay, nothing changes, if they leave it adds to supply.

The main issue arises about the impact of WFH etc. on the future projected demand for housing in the city. New hires coming to work in Dublin may be renting for the first c. 5 years. They then decide to start a family and buy. If they're only in the office 2 or 3 days a week, they will then seriously consider looking much further afield.

Given that this age group will be marrying partners in a similar age bracket, they will both most likely have the opportunity to WFH a few days a week, so they will then seriously consider other areas. If it saves them €100k, if they see they can pay back their mortgage in 15 years instead of 25 years, if it means being closer to family.

Unlike pre-covid, whatever the reason for looking into it, it will definitely be a consideration and will definitely reduce future demand for housing in the city to below pre-covid projected demand levels in future years.

It helps with the 2040 government strategy then ;)

fliball123

JimmyVik wrote: »

I dont think things will change as much as you think they will.
Even just look at the pandemic so far. Didnt take long going from "close the schools" to "open the schools". And as for being careful about getting the virus. Well things have changed there too in a few months. This pandemic will be over. Life is more likely to be like it was before the pandemic than it was during it.

The stats on traffic back on the road while restrictions were lifted before xmas would also back you up we were back up to 86% of pre-covid levels this even do the government advice was to work from home if you could ..


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/december-dublin-city-traffic-hit-highest-levels-since-pandemic-began-1.4444910

DataDude

fliball123 wrote: »

The stats on traffic back on the road while restrictions were lifted before xmas would also back you up we were back up to 86% of pre-covid levels this even do the government advice was to work from home if you could ..


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/december-dublin-city-traffic-hit-highest-levels-since-pandemic-began-1.4444910

Not necessarily disagreeing with overall sentiment as I have no idea where things will land post COVID-19. But suspect this figure is not a good one to base assumptions from as peoples reluctance to use public transport was always likely to increase numbers driving into town!

fliball123

DataDude wrote: »

Not necessarily disagreeing with overall sentiment as I have no idea where things will land post COVID-19. But suspect this figure is not a good one to base assumptions from as peoples reluctance to use public transport was always likely to increase numbers driving into town!

OK so you tell me then if you have the option of working from home which is the debate here are you going to jump in your car and go into work or work from home if public transport has become more dangerous and less available. I would hazard a guess anyone who is reluctant to use public transport would be even more reluctant to go into a work place and working for 6-12 hours a day so the chances of getting COVID would be much higher.

Cyrus

TobyHolmes wrote: »

dont u think the pandemic has giving people more perspective on what they want from life and that they have decided they dont want to live a lifestyle that means high rents and high costs to buy - when they dont have to and in a city that is going to the pits (stabbings, homelessness). (all capital cities are like that - i hear the peanut gallery say - but other capital cities offer more bang for the buck in terms of weather, activities etc).



I would also certainly think that the pandemic has changed society - if it hasnt - then humans are doomed as it means we havent learned anything.


Sure you can ignore me. Im just one person. But believe you me (love that saying) there are many people who have similar views. it would be wise to listen to people if you have any interest in the property market so that you can learn to strategise better.

you have a dim view of our cities, one wonders if you have spent any time in the smaller towns around the country which make dublin cork and galway seem like utopia.

or maybe you favour once off builds in the middle of the country?

TheSheriff

PropQueries wrote: »

People already living here don't add to demand as they're already housed. If they stay, nothing changes, if they leave it adds to supply.

The main issue arises about the impact of WFH etc. on the future projected demand for housing in the city. New hires coming to work in Dublin may be renting for the first c. 5 years. They then decide to start a family and buy. If they're only in the office 2 or 3 days a week, they will then seriously consider looking much further afield.

Given that this age group will be marrying partners in a similar age bracket, they will both most likely have the opportunity to WFH a few days a week, so they will then seriously consider other areas. If it saves them €100k, if they see they can pay back their mortgage in 15 years instead of 25 years, if it means being closer to family.

Unlike pre-covid, whatever the reason for looking into it, it will definitely be a consideration and will definitely reduce future demand for housing in the city to below pre-covid projected demand levels in future years.

Again, you are making assumptions based on your perceived idea of what others want.

As someone in the demographic you are taking about (dual income, decent budget, ability to WFH for years (pharma)) I disagree with what your saying.

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Unlike pre-covid, whatever the reason for looking into it, it will definitely be a consideration and will definitely reduce future demand for housing in the city to below pre-covid projected demand levels in future years.

definitely? don't believe your own hype props.

DataDude

fliball123 wrote: »

OK so you tell me then if you have the option of working from home which is the debate here are you going to jump in your car and go into work or work from home if public transport has become more dangerous and less available. I would hazard a guess anyone who is reluctant to use public transport would be even more reluctant to go into a work place and working for 6-12 hours a day so the chances of getting COVID would be much higher.

I can only speak from my Company's standpoint (and a few others I know of). In the odd few days I have had to attend the office over the last few months for Board meetings etc. I have only ever driven, despite previously exclusively using public transport. I have driven into town more in the last year than I had in the previous 10 year's combined.

Our company has approx. 10% of staff in the office at any one time (when not in level 5, now it is 0%). All staff in the office exclusively drive to work and there is plentiful parking (company will reimburse any parking fees for duration of pandemic). It is not quite banned, but we are heavily discouraged from taking public transport to the office if our attendance is required.

There is some solid data out there from Apple and Google on peoples mobility trends (e.g. https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/). I haven't looked in a while but I believe "average time spent at work" was down at least 30% even during the most lenient of lockdown periods.

Rental demand has not subsided in north Kildare or north Wicklow. There is still a huge shortage in several towns in these areas, perhaps to do with institutional investors not purchasing outside Dublin.

I'm aware of a recently advertised 2 bed rental in north Kildare receiving over 90 replies in 24 hours. 3 beds are pretty much non existent and can be rented several times over.

Cyrus

DataDude wrote: »

I can only speak from my Company's standpoint (and a few others I know of). In the odd few days I have had to attend the office over the last few months for Board meetings etc. I have only ever driven, despite previously exclusively using public transport. I have driven into town more in the last year than I had in the previous 10 year's combined.

Our company has approx. 10% of staff in the office at any one time (when not in level 5, now it is 0%). All staff in the office exclusively drive to work and there is plentiful parking (company will reimburse any parking fees for duration of pandemic). It is not quite banned, but we are heavily discouraged from taking public transport to the office if our attendance is required.

There is some solid data out there from Apple and Google on peoples mobility trends (e.g. https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/). I haven't looked in a while but I believe "average time spent at work" was down at least 30% even during the most lenient of lockdown periods.

i have been in and out a bit and have always taken the dart, its basically empty, could hardly be safer

HansKroenke

Hubertj wrote: »

This makes sense. 4 google workers share the 4 bed house next door to me and they said it was a disaster. Google offered desks/monitors etc but that doesn’t work for 4 people...

Having to learn to cook for themselves also a reason they want to get back into the office I'm sure!

fliball123

DataDude wrote: »

I can only speak from my Company's standpoint (and a few others I know of). In the odd few days I have had to attend the office over the last few months for Board meetings etc. I have only ever driven, despite previously exclusively using public transport. I have driven into town more in the last year than I had in the previous 10 year's combined.

Our company has approx. 10% of staff in the office at any one time (when not in level 5, now it is 0%). All staff in the office exclusively drive to work and there is plentiful parking (company will reimburse any parking fees for duration of pandemic). It is not quite banned, but we are heavily discouraged from taking public transport to the office if our attendance is required.

There is some solid data out there from Apple and Google on peoples mobility trends (e.g. https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/). I haven't looked in a while but I believe "average time spent at work" was down at least 30% even during the most lenient of lockdown periods.

Well the data is based on the person having their location history enabled. I dont have mine enabled but thats an aside. Its a good data set but you can see the dip in people commuting into work when restrictions (level 5) was entered at the end of the year would that not suggest that a significant amount of people were going back into the office when lock down was lifted. Just look at the dip in the graph when level 5 came back in after xmas.

https://www.gstatic.com/covid19/mobility/2021-01-03_IE_Mobility_Report_en-GB.pdf

PropQueries

HansKroenke wrote: »

Having to learn to cook for themselves also a reason they want to get back into the office I'm sure!

I never understood the google free food thing. The vast majority of banks (headquarters) in Dublin offered free or heavily subsidised dinners at work well before Google arrived.

I assume most other large employers also have subsidised canteens as well.

Didn’t Guinness provide heavily subsidised housing to their staff well over a hundred years ago?

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

I never understood the google free food thing. The vast majority of banks (headquarters) in Dublin offered free or heavily subsidised dinners at work well before Google arrived.

I assume most other large employers also have subsidised canteens as well.

Didn’t Guinness provide heavily subsidised housing to their staff well over a hundred years ago?

Sure its a joke in Google that you put on the google stone when you work there as your always snacking with the free food

DataDude

fliball123 wrote: »

Well the data is based on the person having their location history enabled. I dont have mine enabled but thats an aside. Its a good data set but you can see the dip in people commuting into work when restrictions (level 5) was entered at the end of the year would that not suggest that a significant amount of people were going back into the office when lock down was lifted. Just look at the dip in the graph when level 5 came back in after xmas.

https://www.gstatic.com/covid19/mobility/2021-01-03_IE_Mobility_Report_en-GB.pdf

Yeah great dataset, you can download much more granular data into excel also if interested.

I wouldn't even attempt to argue that we won't see significantly more people coming back to the offices post pandemic, it is a certainty (as you say, it is even evident in December data!). The uncertainty is how close it will get to previous levels (e.g. -5% or -30%).

I don't think anyone knows that yet and was just suggesting that I wouldn't use traffic numbers during the pandemic as a good proxy for it - as it has been worldwide phenomenon that there has been a temporary move away from public transport and back towards the car! I think that is very evident from the google data and there are no shortage of articles on it.

Hubertj

PropQueries wrote: »

I never understood the google free food thing. The vast majority of banks (headquarters) in Dublin offered free or heavily subsidised dinners at work well before Google arrived.

I assume most other large employers also have subsidised canteens as well.

Didn’t Guinness provide heavily subsidised housing to their staff well over a hundred years ago?

I think it is the quality of the food. My wife worked at the health centre in good for 3 months. She thought it was restaurant quality lunch and dinner, not canteen fare, multiple options etc

PropQueries

DataDude wrote: »

Yeah great dataset, you can download much more granular data into excel also if interested.

I wouldn't even attempt to argue that we won't see significantly more people coming back to the offices post pandemic, it is a certainty (as you say, it is even evident in December data!). The uncertainty is how close it will get to previous levels (e.g. -5% or -30%).

I don't think anyone knows that yet and was just suggesting that I wouldn't use traffic numbers during the pandemic as a good proxy for it - as it has been worldwide phenomenon that there has been a temporary move away from public transport and back towards the car! I think that is very evident from the google data and there are no shortage of articles on it.

Well, we do know the state is looking at making c. 20% of their public sector staff WFH going forward (is that 20% of office based staff or 20% of whole workforce? I don't know). The OPW is actively looking at not renewing office space in the city where the lease expires in the next 5 years.


So, that's a very possible permanent decline from that one significant employer in the city alone.

TheSheriff

Hubertj wrote: »

I think it is the quality of the food. My wife worked at the health centre in good for 3 months. She thought it was restaurant quality lunch and dinner, not canteen fare, multiple options etc

I can vouch for this, other half is in tech.

The perks of the office were fantastic. OH would regularly come home with leftovers/excess and it was far superior to anything we would cook ourselves. And that's just the dinners, the endless snacks etc. were also fantastic.

The company essentially fed us both.

Depends on your stage of life how important these things are, but we're I early-mid 20s, working for Google I would want to be in the office in Dublin city centre.

The draw will still be there.

DataDude

PropQueries wrote: »

Well, we do know the state is looking at making c. 20% of their public sector staff WFH going forward (is that 20% of office based staff or 20% of whole workforce? I don't know). The OPW is actively looking at not renewing office space in the city where the lease expires in the next 5 years.


So, that's a very possible permanent decline from that one significant employer in the city alone.

For sure. I think I saw some numbers from AIB on this also (perhaps previously posted on this forum?
Axa today announced their "smart working strategy" (https://youtalk-insurance.com/news/axa-commercial-lines-personal-intermediary/axa-deploys-its-smart-working-strategy-worldwide?utm_source=ConstantContact&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=752).

My own company, 2 days is confirmed for all staff and it feels like 3 days from home is inevitable. Discussions are already starting about what this means for our current office which will never be full again.

The big ones to watch I think are the Big 4 accountancy firms, I don't think people working there know exactly what to expect just yet but based on what I've heard, people are expecting a similar 2/3 days.

Given the overwhelming desire from employees to do so (many surveys confirm this), I see WFH as an unstoppable train going in one direction that will make staff recruitment/retention impossible unless you embrace it. Time will tell!

hometruths

TheSheriff wrote: »

I can vouch for this, other half is in tech.

The perks of the office were fantastic. OH would regularly come home with leftovers/excess and it was far superior to anything we would cook ourselves. And that's just the dinners, the endless snacks etc. were also fantastic.

The company essentially fed us both.

Depends on your stage of life how important these things are, but we're I early-mid 20s, working for Google I would want to be in the office in Dublin city centre.

The draw will still be there.

I'm in agreement with this and posted so before. Appetite for city centre living will remain strongest with those in 20s. The WFH move out will be in 30+ in my opinion.

Timing belt

DataDude wrote: »

For sure. I think I saw some numbers from AIB on this also (perhaps previously posted on this forum?
Axa today announced their "smart working strategy" (https://youtalk-insurance.com/news/axa-commercial-lines-personal-intermediary/axa-deploys-its-smart-working-strategy-worldwide?utm_source=ConstantContact&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=752).

My own company, 2 days is confirmed for all staff and it feels like 3 days from home is inevitable. Discussions are already starting about what this means for our current office which will never be full again.

The big ones to watch I think are the Big 4 accountancy firms, I don't think people working there know exactly what to expect just yet but based on what I've heard, people are expecting a similar 2/3 days.

Given the overwhelming desire from employees to do so (many surveys confirm this), I see WFH as an unstoppable train going in one direction that will make staff recruitment/retention impossible unless you embrace it. Time will tell!

The desire is there from the employee and employer as there are big savings to be made for companies with WFH a 2/3 days a week and hotdesking when you are in the office. As I mentioned before this has been common practise in London for a number of years.

When implemented first everyone opts to WFH on a Monday and Friday and then there were not enough desks available during the week. To resolve that a lot of companies brought it a system of Booking a desk and the need to rotate your WFH days. The other thing that suffered a lot was the social events as lot of people used WFH to opt out.

It will be interesting to see how it impacts the housing market. I think a lot of people will opt for houses outside the city but there will still be demand for city living as Cities by their nature the attract people.

Cyrus

DataDude wrote: »

The big ones to watch I think are the Big 4 accountancy firms, I don't think people working there know exactly what to expect just yet but based on what I've heard, people are expecting a similar 2/3 days.

that would be a turn up for the books, could potentially work for tax staff but a lot of the rest spend more time at client premises than their own office, id expect that to persist.

also a few friends are partners and they have been in more than out, they want their people back in, but who knows.

Timing belt

Cyrus wrote: »

that would be a turn up for the books, could potentially work for tax staff but a lot of the rest spend more time at client premises than their own office, id expect that to persist.

also a few friends are partners and they have been in more than out, they want their people back in, but who knows.

They will have difficulty working around the clients WFH days if they still spend as much time at client premises.

Cyrus

Timing belt wrote: »

They will have difficulty working around the clients WFH days if they still spend as much time at client premises.

id imagine a compromise will have to be reached at audit time, plus an audit team will work with a number of different teams within finance so im sure everyone wont be out on the same day,

ditto for transactional business, if there is a deal on people will have to be around if they are needed

the other side of this is that a big % of big 4 employees are trainees, fresh out of college, they are not best served working from home in that scenario, they need training and guidance and as much of it face to face as possible.

The Spider

JimmyVik wrote: »

I dont think things will change as much as you think they will.
Even just look at the pandemic so far. Didnt take long going from "close the schools" to "open the schools". And as for being careful about getting the virus. Well things have changed there too in a few months. This pandemic will be over. Life is more likely to be like it was before the pandemic than it was during it.

Not a chance, remote work is here to stay, it’s been mandated by government every employee will have a right to request to work from home if their job can be done remotely. And good luck to a company arguing at the workplace relations commission why their software engineers need to be in the office when multiple other companies have them working from home.

Work from home will take pressure off Dublin and give rural areas and towns a new lease of life as people move back to them, oh and people from Dublin might stand a chance in buying a house close to their families, and people from the country will be able to live close to their families, whatever way you look at it for society it’s win win.

Like it or not thevworld of work has fundamentally changed, this change is up there with the industrial revolution, we won’t be through this pandemic until January next year at least, that’s two years of people working from home, it’s not going back to the way it was.

The Spider

Timing belt wrote: »

People have all been drawn to cities that won't change.... Yes we will have more people move out of the city to WFH but the city will still attract people.

Yes but maybe not Dublin city so much as Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway.

Cyrus

The Spider wrote: »

Not a chance, remote work is here to stay, it’s been mandated by government every employee will have a right to request to work from home if their job can be done remotely. And good luck to a company arguing at the workplace relations commission why their software engineers need to be in the office when multiple other companies have them working from home.

Work from home will take pressure off Dublin and give rural areas and towns a new lease of life as people move back to them, oh and people from Dublin might stand a chance in buying a house close to their families, and people from the country will be able to live close to their families, whatever way you look at it for society it’s win win.

Like it or not thevworld of work has fundamentally changed, this change is up there with the industrial revolution, we won’t be through this pandemic until January next year at least, that’s two years of people working from home, it’s not going back to the way it was.

a cohort will work from home, people will likely trade career progression off against lower price of houses outside the cities. Financially will they be better off, im not sure, but for some itll be a better quality of life.

fliball123

The Spider wrote: »

Not a chance, remote work is here to stay, it’s been mandated by government every employee will have a right to request to work from home if their job can be done remotely. And good luck to a company arguing at the workplace relations commission why their software engineers need to be in the office when multiple other companies have them working from home.

Work from home will take pressure off Dublin and give rural areas and towns a new lease of life as people move back to them, oh and people from Dublin might stand a chance in buying a house close to their families, and people from the country will be able to live close to their families, whatever way you look at it for society it’s win win.

Like it or not thevworld of work has fundamentally changed, this change is up there with the industrial revolution, we won’t be through this pandemic until January next year at least, that’s two years of people working from home, it’s not going back to the way it was.

Wouldnt it be a case of it being specified in their contracts about having to come into the workplace or not. So regardless of if another company have working from home an employee cant turn and say Bill works from home so now I do too and then take their employer to court??. What next a worker taking their employer to court as Bill also gets paid 20k more than they do? What is more likely going forward is WFH will become a BIK like a car has become a BIK in the 90/00s as an incentive to get an employee working for you. There is a value in it and the worker will be given the option of WFH or coming into the office and getting the BIK in to the hand. But we are a good decade or so away from this IMO. Personally I was WFH 2 years before we even heard about COVID

TheSheriff

The Spider wrote: »

Not a chance, remote work is here to stay, it’s been mandated by government every employee will have a right to request to work from home if their job can be done remotely. And good luck to a company arguing at the workplace relations commission why their software engineers need to be in the office when multiple other companies have them working from home.

Work from home will take pressure off Dublin and give rural areas and towns a new lease of life as people move back to them, oh and people from Dublin might stand a chance in buying a house close to their families, and people from the country will be able to live close to their families, whatever way you look at it for society it’s win win.

Like it or not thevworld of work has fundamentally changed, this change is up there with the industrial revolution, we won’t be through this pandemic until January next year at least, that’s two years of people working from home, it’s not going back to the way it was.

The right to 'request' to WFH is very different to the 'right' to work from home.

Look to industries which have been doing this for years, pharma etc and you will see how this pans out.

John who wants to WFH 2/3 days a week will likely be allowed to, after they pass some certain predetermined time by the company (my last employer was 1 year). John will ultimately (unfairly) have poorer career progression, presence in the company etc, whatever way you want to call all that office *bull*. It's true for companies with a hybrid approach. Others will choose to work in the office, pay more money etc.

Both will have a different quality of life, whose is better depends on your prefence.

Some will leave Dublin, some might move to another part of Dublin etc. All Dublin based young professionals are not looking to flock to rural Ireland to live that country life they always wanted.

MacronvFrugals

TheSheriff wrote: »

Depends on your stage of life how important these things are, but we're I early-mid 20s, working for Google I would want to be in the office in Dublin city centre.

The draw will still be there.

I'm early 20s and work in tech with all these food options available in the office, give me WFH and no commute any day over a few meals.

A lot of techie types especially programmers and the like are introverts, give us the option of not going to the office and we'll gladly take it.

Timing belt

Cyrus wrote: »

id imagine a compromise will have to be reached at audit time, plus an audit team will work with a number of different teams within finance so im sure everyone wont be out on the same day,

ditto for transactional business, if there is a deal on people will have to be around if they are needed

the other side of this is that a big % of big 4 employees are trainees, fresh out of college, they are not best served working from home in that scenario, they need training and guidance and as much of it face to face as possible.

There definitely needs to be flexibility and that’s why you will find people needing to be in the office more than just 1-2 days a week at busy times. Obviously different roles will have different requirements but there will still be a need to be reasonably close to the office.

I can’t see a 2 hour commute plus traffic each way being manageable in winter while working 12 hour day at year end. Obviously there are hotels etc. but think this will influence decisions

DataDude

Cyrus wrote: »

that would be a turn up for the books, could potentially work for tax staff but a lot of the rest spend more time at client premises than their own office, id expect that to persist.

also a few friends are partners and they have been in more than out, they want their people back in, but who knows.

Very interesting - Partners in the Big 4 wield an awful lot of power, if they march into an Audit Committee and say "controls were ineffective because of process changes due to WFH", it will dampen an awful lot of enthusiasm at Board level.

Have to say I haven't seen that so far at all and they have been hugely complimentary of how the processes have adapted (one company only of course!).

With regard to their desire to do Audit testing on site, I think they will (and have adapted). Just a case of getting them the appropriate IT access. They tend to work around client needs mostly - I certainly don't foresee a scenario where I have to go into the office because it suits the auditor (in fact I hope to never meet an auditor in person again ). In that respect, I think it will reduce their time spent on client site.

Cyrus

Timing belt wrote: »

There definitely needs to be flexibility and that’s why you will find people needing to be in the office more than just 1-2 days a week at busy times. Obviously different roles will have different requirements but there will still be a need to be reasonably close to the office.

I can’t see a 2 hour commute plus traffic each way being manageable in winter while working 12 hour day at year end. Obviously there are hotels etc. but think this will influence decisions

like i said, and another poster has alluded to, itll impact career progression on those that decide to WFH more and make purchasing decisions that make getting to the office difficult.

Cyrus

DataDude wrote: »

Very interesting - Partners in the Big 4 wield an awful lot of power, if they march into an Audit Committee and say "controls were ineffective because of process changes due to WFH", it will dampen an awful lot of enthusiasm at Board level.

Have to say I haven't seen that so far at all and they have been hugely complimentary of how the processes have adapted (one company only of course!).

With regard to their desire to do Audit testing on site, I think they will (and have adapted). Just a case of getting them the appropriate IT access. They tend to work around client needs mostly - I certainly don't foresee a scenario where I have to go into the office because it suits the auditor (in fact I hope to never meet an auditor in person again ). In that respect, I think it will reduce their time spent on client site.

potentially, but generally the aim with an audit is to get rid of them as quick as you can, one because they are a nuisance and two because you have a reporting deadline.

Auditors being on site assists a quicker audit in my experience, normally when they leave it all slows down.

Timing belt

Cyrus wrote: »

like i said, and another poster has alluded to, itll impact career progression on those that decide to WFH more and make purchasing decisions that make getting to the office difficult.

I worked a hybrid model for 3 years and all managers were in 5 days a week despite being allowed wfh 2 days a week

DataDude

Cyrus wrote: »

like i said, and another poster has alluded to, itll impact career progression on those that decide to WFH more and make purchasing decisions that make getting to the office difficult.

I think this definitely held true in the past because if you did WFH you were seen as not committed. As it becomes more normalized it'll be interesting to see if this continues to hold true.

Certainly in my place we are talking a lot about how this could help Diversity & Inclusion. How senior management should lead by example WFH etc. A number of our most senior staff are pushing for more WFH for themselves (to quote our CFO - "If you think things are just going to back to normal after all this and that WFH isn't going to be a major part of the future, you're living in denial").

I believe that will change the dynamics vs WFH of the past. Entire company's will embrace, rather than a few people with special circumstances doing it and being "out of sight, out of mind" for promotions!

The Spider

TheSheriff wrote: »

The right to 'request' to WFH is very different to the 'right' to work from home.

Look to industries which have been doing this for years, pharma etc and you will see how this pans out.

John who wants to WFH 2/3 days a week will likely be allowed to, after they pass some certain predetermined time by the company (my last employer was 1 year). John will ultimately (unfairly) have poorer career progression, presence in the company etc, whatever way you want to call all that office *bull*. It's true for companies with a hybrid approach. Others will choose to work in the office, pay more money etc.

Both will have a different quality of life, whose is better depends on your prefence.

Some will leave Dublin, some might move to another part of Dublin etc. All Dublin based young professionals are not looking to flock to rural Ireland to live that country life they always wanted.

I don’t disagree with this, I’ve worked in IT for 26 years, so I’m basing my experiences on that. We used to say there was more work done in the pub than the office, in terms of networking getting promotions etc.

I think we’ll more than likely hit a hybrid model, 2 days in the office 3 at home. Hard to know how it’ll pan out, if management take advantage of WFH then everyone else will, I’ve seen anecdotal evidence of this happening already with bank staff having to go into the branches but the managers working from home a couple of days a week.

It’s also true that people in their 20s will want to be in cities, but it’s also true that a lot of people are in Dublin because they can’t work anywhere else, it’s also true that the Irish city that people want to be in may not necessarily be Dublin.

Time will tell on this but I think that everyone’s way of working has changed irrevocably, also I think that IT companies in other parts of Ireland could suffer serious retention issues, if those staff can now get jobs from Dublin companies or multinationals based in Dublin, with higher wages benefitsetc, and carry on living in the country.

I know someone is going to say wages will drop because of a lower cost of living outside Dublin, that never happens in my experience, if someone is good he’ll be paid the same rate as other members on the team, give or take, besides there’s nowhere in a Ireland really where you couldn’t do 2 days a week in Dublin if you had to.

(Alright it’d be a pain in the ass from Dingle but you get the idea)

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

like i said, and another poster has alluded to, itll impact career progression on those that decide to WFH more and make purchasing decisions that make getting to the office difficult.

In time, I think we might see the complete opposite in that, in some industries, if you are not a capable, reliable, productive WFHer it will impact your job prospects/career progression.

Everybody talking about this from the employees perspective, but it will be the employers that set the agenda.

I know an employer (SME) who says he now has a whole new understanding and appreciation of who the most valuable and productive employees really are - those who can deliver while WFHing, and he says generally it is the opposite of those who shone in the office.

MacronvFrugals

schmittel wrote: »

I

I know an employer (SME) who says he now has a whole new understanding and appreciation of who the most valuable and productive employees really are - those who can deliver while WFHing, and he says generally it is the opposite of those who shone in the office.

In our place(SME tech) the middle managers who used to swan around barking orders in the office are now heavily exposed with senior management asking "what did these people actually do?"

hometruths

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

In our place(SME tech) the middle managers who used to swan around barking orders in the office are now heavily exposed with senior management asking "what did these people actually do?"

Exactly. Two big costs for businesses are premises and personnel - there is a lot of fat that can be trimmed off if WFH makes overpriced offices and overpriced middle management superfluous.

MacronvFrugals

schmittel wrote: »

Exactly. Two big costs for businesses are premises and personnel - there is a lot of fat that can be trimmed off if WFH makes overpriced offices and overpriced middle management superfluous.

We have two City Centre offices, the larger one is up for sale at the minute and the smaller one will be kept for client meetings/visits and to have some sort of physical presence more for potential customer optics than anything else.

The middle managers certainly are worried, the proof of this is them beginning to send emails at 2AM/3AM/4AM about pedantic things.

Subutai

If we do end up with work from home becoming the norm for office jobs (and I would think that 2/3 days from home will become the norm, especially in the Public Service where it will be mandated) then I think you'll start to see a lot of categories of property become more difficult to fill. The very small one beds in the city centre will be an unattractive prospect - they're mostly now occupied by those who are there due to circumstance rather than by choice (I need to live near work).

I wouldn't be surprised through to see them repurposed as pied-à-terres. If you want to live in a big house in the countryside and work from home most of the week, a pied-à-terre lets you avoid the commute for the two days, or longer if there are busy times that require you present. They also let you spend a weekend or whatever if you want to go to a concert etc.

Some kind of co-living version of this could well be a runner for those who can't afford a second (if very small) property.

Cyrus

DataDude wrote: »

I think this definitely held true in the past because if you did WFH you were seen as not committed. As it becomes more normalized it'll be interesting to see if this continues to hold true.

Certainly in my place we are talking a lot about how this could help Diversity & Inclusion. How senior management should lead by example WFH etc. A number of our most senior staff are pushing for more WFH for themselves (to quote our CFO - "If you think things are just going to back to normal after all this and that WFH isn't going to be a major part of the future, you're living in denial").

I believe that will change the dynamics vs WFH of the past. Entire company's will embrace, rather than a few people with special circumstances doing it and being "out of sight, out of mind" for promotions!

That’s fine for your CFO, it’s the person who wants to succeed him or her that has the quandary.

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

In time, I think we might see the complete opposite in that, in some industries, if you are not a capable, reliable, productive WFHer it will impact your job prospects/career progression.

Everybody talking about this from the employees perspective, but it will be the employers that set the agenda.

I know an employer (SME) who says he now has a whole new understanding and appreciation of who the most valuable and productive employees really are - those who can deliver while WFHing, and he says generally it is the opposite of those who shone in the office.

And in my experience the people who did less in the office have been found out to a greater extent working from home. Anyway I disagree we will see the complete opposite of that for senior positions at least .

Hubertj

I can’t wait to get back in the office. My wife goes to her place of work every day but she ignore the W in WFH and leaves a list of things for me to get done around the house every day. Every single day

mcsean2163

TylerRyan28 wrote: »

So they want everyone to drop before they can retire and enjoy retirement. I can see people retireing before they reach state pension age I know you may receive less if you do retire early but some things are more important then having a big pension. Sure what would you be spending it on wont need much at that age, if your lucky enough to make it to that age.
house Would be paid off. Wouldn't be going on the same type of hoildays you would go on when your young and fit.

Stop thief, said the 75 year old Garda. I wonder where all the 75 year olds will work.

mcsean2163

Hubertj wrote: »

I can’t wait to get back in the office. My wife goes to her place of work every day but she ignore the W in WFH and leaves a list of things for me to get done around the house every day. Every single day

Yep. WFH is a disaster and very inefficient unless you are in management and just need zoom calls. So much product development time wasted on zoom.

Marius34

TobyHolmes wrote: »

really as I have had the opposite experience. But look I suppose we will see.

What you mean opposite in this case? What do you have in mind? That Indian Master students/fresh graduates are not planning to come/return to Dublin? or that European workers left Dublin? or etc?

TobyHolmes

Marius34 wrote: »

What you mean opposite in this case? What do you have in mind? That Indian Master students/fresh graduates are not planning to come/return to Dublin? or that European workers left Dublin? or etc?

my experience is that international people have gone to their home countries to WFH and are not coming back, and you have had a different experience. great.


students yes students will always need to go to school but IN MY OPINION we may not get as many international students who travel over to study abroad for the year for awhile.


anywho

hometruths

TobyHolmes wrote: »

you really want to debate my opposite experience to you?


my experience is that international people have gone to their home countries to WFH and are not coming back, and you have had a different experience. good for you.


students yes students will always need to go to school but IN MY OPINION we may not get as many international students who travel over to study abroad for the year for awhile.


anywho

Many on here think this is nonsense, but the ESRI agree with you. (as do I)