2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

Marius34

TobyHolmes wrote: »

my experience is that international people have gone to their home countries to WFH and are not coming back, and you have had a different experience. great.


students yes students will always need to go to school but IN MY OPINION we may not get as many international students who travel over to study abroad for the year for awhile.


anywho

To be honest, different experience is very interesting to me, and a case of people working from their home countries. It's very unusual times, how this will end up. If you really work outside Ireland, for Irish company there is difficult tax implications. Since person working 183 days in other country by default becomes a tax resident of that country.

Xoo2

Xoo2 wrote: »

There seems to be a serious supply issue where we're looking to buy Castleknock, Coolmine, even Blanchardstown- Dublin 15 .etc. Looking for a 4-bed semi-D and I don't know if it's just the time of year but there might be 1 house a week coming on the market. Anything under 550k seems to go sale agreed/sold within a month or so. Even a 3 bed with attic suitable for conversion, or already converted would be great. Just based on my own experience house hunting it wouldn't surprise me at all if prices rise this year.

That's very true. Have you considered Meath at all?

Cluedo Monopoly

I told my manager this week that I would work from home for the rest of 2021. They are downsizing the office space when the lease runs out in July. The plan is to bring in a hotdesk program. I will probably move to 1 day in the office in 2022.

I know 2 guys elsewhere that are doing their WFH in Spain and Portugal respectively. They gave up their leases and are renting cheap beside the sea. I don't think their employer knows. My employer wouldn't have a clue if I was away.

PropQueries

Marius34 wrote: »

To be honest, different experience is very interesting to me, and a case of people working from their home countries. It's very unusual times, how this will end up. If you really work outside Ireland, for Irish company there is difficult tax implications. Since person working 183 days in other country by default becomes a tax resident of that country.

But aren’t a significant percentage of the staff in Ireland working for Facebook, google, Microsoft actually employed by outsourcers e.g. Cpl, Accenture etc.

Can’t they they just use their existing operations in Eastern Europe to relocate or hire new staff given that it has now been proven that a lot of the work can be done just as well remotely.

How would that impact on the taxes google etc. pay here as google, Facebook, Microsoft etc. aren’t employing that many of their Irish staff directly anyway.

Timing belt

PropQueries wrote: »

But aren’t a significant percentage of the staff in Ireland working for Facebook, google, Microsoft actually employed by outsourcers e.g. Cpl, Accenture etc.

Can’t they they just use their existing operations in Eastern Europe to relocate or hire new staff given that it has now been proven that a lot of the work can be done just as well remotely.

How would that impact on the taxes google etc. pay here as google, Facebook, Microsoft etc. aren’t employing many of their Irish staff directly anyway.

if the work is undertaken outside Ireland then the companies could have a tax liability in the country the work is undertaken. It makes no difference if it is agency staff or staff directly employed.

PropQueries

Timing belt wrote: »

if the work is undertaken outside Ireland then the companies could have a tax liability in the country the work is undertaken. It makes no difference if it is agency staff or staff directly employed.

Sure aren’t most of the drugs “manufactured” in Ireland actually manufactured in other EU countries. They do a bit of the “quality control” and “packaging” here and they manage to only pay Irish taxes.

If the pharma companies can do it, I assume google etc. can do it.

Timing belt

PropQueries wrote: »

Sure aren’t most of the drugs “manufactured” in Ireland actually manufactured in other EU countries. They do a bit of the “quality control” and “packaging” here and they manage to only pay Irish taxes.

If the pharma companies can do it, I assume google etc. can do it.

We have been through this before just go back and read the posts from a month ago when you raised this or the month before that.

fliball123

Timing belt wrote: »

We have been through this before just go back and read the posts from a month ago when you raised this or the month before that.

Props has selective amnesia when he has been proven wrong

PropQueries

fliball123 wrote: »

Props has selective amnesia when he has been proven wrong

Not at all. The “permanent establishment” scare is put out by the revenue and the tax advisors so they won’t lose the business.

Given the existing large EU presence of these companies, any EU country could have established it pre-covid anyway if they so wished.

TheSheriff

PropQueries wrote: »

Sure aren’t most of the drugs “manufactured” in Ireland actually manufactured in other EU countries. They do a bit of the “quality control” and “packaging” here and they manage to only pay Irish taxes.

If the pharma companies can do it, I assume google etc. can do it.

This is 100% incorrect and false information.

You're at it again.

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

Not at all. The “permanent establishment” scare is put out by the revenue and the tax advisors so they won’t lose the business.

Given the existing large EU presence of these companies, any EU country could have established it pre-covid anyway if they so wished.

Its not a scare its fact Ireland have allowed companies come in here paying f-all corpo tax on the narrative that it will give the country jobs meaning people paying tax here and living here.

Its the law.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/moving_country_and_taxation/tax_residence_and_domicile_in_ireland.html#:~:text=Residence%20for%20tax%20purposes,-Your%20residence%20for&text=You%20are%20resident%20for%20tax,for%20the%20second%20tax%20year.


Not to mention the absolute nightmare for a company to sort out the logistics of someone not domicile here when it comes to pay, taxes, social insurance, etc.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/why-multinationals-are-calling-employees-back-to-ireland-1.4379472

Bass Reeves

Timing belt wrote: »

if the work is undertaken outside Ireland then the companies could have a tax liability in the country the work is undertaken. It makes no difference if it is agency staff or staff directly employed.

We have been through this 3-4 times with Prop. He just comes back with a different version every 4-6 weeks. As he carriers on with some other fairy tales as well.

PommieBast

Marius34 wrote: »

To be honest, different experience is very interesting to me, and a case of people working from their home countries. It's very unusual times, how this will end up. If you really work outside Ireland, for Irish company there is difficult tax implications. Since person working 183 days in other country by default becomes a tax resident of that country.

Because of different definitions of tax year I am dangerously close to having exceeded that 183 days in two countries at the same time

mcsean2163

I wonder how many work abroad without notifying their employer..?

Reins

On the PPR next to sold price is ** anyone know what that means?

Graham

Reins wrote: »

On the PPR next to sold price is ** anyone know what that means?

** - Denotes Not Full Market Price

Reins

Graham wrote: »

** - Denotes Not Full Market Price

Any particular reason they're marked in this way?

what does one gain from knowing this information?..

Graham

Reins wrote: »

Any particular reason they're marked in this way?

From the PPR website:

In a small number of transactions included in the Register the price shown does not represent the full market price of the property concerned for a variety of reasons. For example, the price declared may reflect the retention of an interest in the property by the previous owner, or the fact that a part or fraction only of the property is being purchased; alternatively, the property may have been purchased at a reduced price under the Affordable Homes Scheme. In addition, in a very small number of cases, properties may be declared as purchased in exchange for other property, stocks and shares, etc. All such properties are marked **.

Reins wrote: »

what does one gain from knowing this information?..

Don't expect to acquire a similar property for the amount on the register

virginmediapls

Anyone else starting to get the feeling there will be a crash next year?

We've just gotten mortgage approved again, but...starting to think we'll hold off 'til the end of approval.

fliball123

virginmediapls wrote: »

Anyone else starting to get the feeling there will be a crash next year?

We've just gotten mortgage approved again, but...starting to think we'll hold off 'til the end of approval.

No one knows I would be careful asking that question in here you might hesitate and regret it or you might take the leap and regret it. If your buying look at your own finance and personal situation. Anyone on here saying there will be a crash do not know what they are talking about same goes with those saying there will not be a crash. No one knows its all guess work having said that some of the guesses are at least based on some solid facts, others are completely made up and spun to suit their own narrative.

Bass Reeves

virginmediapls wrote: »

Anyone else starting to get the feeling there will be a crash next year?

We've just gotten mortgage approved again, but...starting to think we'll hold off 'til the end of approval.

The question you have to ask is if there is how big will it be and will.it benefit you. There are some on here that assume every downturn will be the same a crash similar to 2008-12 where we saw a substantial drop in prices. Could this happen again yes it could but it is highly unlikely. There was specific fault lines that caused that downturn. Most property price downturns are in the 5-15% mark and most are in the 5-10% bracket

So a lot then depends on your personal circumstances. If you are renting or at life critical points will the risk of waiting for such a price drop be worth it. The next factor is will you be able to benefit from it. Will you still get mortgage approval, will that approval.be for as much as you will get now. The other factor is prices can go up as well. If prices go up by 3-5% or greater how will this effect you

Cyrus

PropQueries wrote: »

Not at all. The “permanent establishment” scare is put out by the revenue and the tax advisors so they won’t lose the business.

Given the existing large EU presence of these companies, any EU country could have established it pre-covid anyway if they so wished.

You have no idea what you are talking about , come back when you have dealt with tax authorities in multiple jurisdictions trying to claim permanent establishment for some pretty tenuous reasons and then tell us it’s a scare tactic .

Having an operation in that country already is neither here nor there because the tax paid in that country will be purposely limited by way of whatever transfer price mechanism is in place. What these countries want is the bulk of that entities tax paid in Europe , i.e. the tax paid on their actual commercial activities not the tax due on a management charge at cost plus 10 percent or whatever it is.

That’s the issue here.

Which you have demonstrated time and time again that you don’t understand.

TheSheriff

virginmediapls wrote: »

Anyone else starting to get the feeling there will be a crash next year?

We've just gotten mortgage approved again, but...starting to think we'll hold off 'til the end of approval.

I would suggest reading this equivalent thread starting from ~ 3 years back.

The crash is always going to happen 'next year'.

PropQueries

TheSheriff wrote: »

I would suggest reading this equivalent thread starting from ~ 3 years back.

The crash is always going to happen 'next year'.

Well, I think if the state didn't start buying up, leasing and using HAP etc. to increase the flow of state money going to both developers and landlords, yes there most likely would have been a housing price crash in the past three years IMO.

Many of the developers would still be around as they bought their sites for a pittance from the likes of NAMA etc. But prices/rents would definitely be c. 25% - 50% lower by now without this state back-door bailout IMO.

You could use the same argument against people who predicted that the banks would go bust back in 2007. Just because the banks are still around doesn't mean they didn't go bust. They did but are only around because of the state's support. Similar to the cost of housing today. It's completely reliant on the state in the background buying up or leasing any unsold/un-rented stock at current asking prices/rents IMO

Cyrus

anyway back to property

i wonder what the story with this place is, there is almost certainly a story

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/huntington-outfarm-castleknock-dublin-15-castleknock-dublin-15/4480969

the boards posse have already been on the case

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2058038040

JimmyVik

TheSheriff wrote: »

The right to 'request' to WFH is very different to the 'right' to work from home.

Look to industries which have been doing this for years, pharma etc and you will see how this pans out.

John who wants to WFH 2/3 days a week will likely be allowed to, after they pass some certain predetermined time by the company (my last employer was 1 year). John will ultimately (unfairly) have poorer career progression, presence in the company etc, whatever way you want to call all that office *bull*. It's true for companies with a hybrid approach. Others will choose to work in the office, pay more money etc.

Both will have a different quality of life, whose is better depends on your prefence.

Some will leave Dublin, some might move to another part of Dublin etc. All Dublin based young professionals are not looking to flock to rural Ireland to live that country life they always wanted.

I think a lot of people are overlooking that.
I dont know anyone under the age of 40 who desires the country life. Especially those of us from the country. And by country I mean anywhere apart from Dublin.
But then over 40 is a different story. Most people including myself would be happy to move back down the country once married and settled. But for that to happen you need buy in about schools, spouses workplace, spouse as well as yourself and your employer. Thats a lot of juggling.

Cyrus

JimmyVik wrote: »

But then over 40 is a different story. Most people including myself would be happy to move back down the country once married and settled. But for that to happen you need buy in about schools, spouses workplace, spouse as well as yourself and your employer. Thats a lot of juggling.

not so sure on that either while it certainly holds more appeal at this stage you may already have kids in school and career aspirations that wont be met by moving away,

we looked at it and decided to stay put

DataDude

Cyrus wrote: »

anyway back to property

i wonder what the story with this place is, there is almost certainly a story

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/huntington-outfarm-castleknock-dublin-15-castleknock-dublin-15/4480969

the boards posse have already been on the case

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2058038040

Also saw this yesterday and couldn't work it out at all! Seems too good to be true. Comments on other thread re. planning for apartments would make sense.

On the topic of too good to be true - this was on the market for a long time a 950 (seems to have gone sale agreed in last couple of days). I have no desire to live in an apartment or in Saggart...but wow!
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/504-swiftwood-saggart-co-dublin-d24-nn63/4446109

Hubertj

TheSheriff wrote: »

I would suggest reading this equivalent thread starting from ~ 3 years back.

The crash is always going to happen 'next year'.

Always next year just like Liverpool fans for 30 years. Eventually they will be right and can claim how they saw it coming.

JimmyVik

Marius34 wrote: »

To be honest, different experience is very interesting to me, and a case of people working from their home countries. It's very unusual times, how this will end up. If you really work outside Ireland, for Irish company there is difficult tax implications. Since person working 183 days in other country by default becomes a tax resident of that country.

A few people on my team have been told they have to come back to Ireland and be resident in Ireland before April to continue working in the company.
Something to do with tax I think. But I dont really know.

One in the UK, 1 in France, 1 in Poland.


I should add that we have an office in the UK and another in France too.

Geuze

virginmediapls wrote: »

Anyone else starting to get the feeling there will be a crash next year?

No.

With such a lack of supply, and so much demand.

JimmyVik

fliball123 wrote: »

Props has selective amnesia when he has been proven wrong

What, he is never wrong
Sometimes I think he must be a politician in real life. The way politicians get caught out on a lie and just continues on like nothing happened.

MacronvFrugals

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I told my manager this week that I would work from home for the rest of 2021. They are downsizing the office space when the lease runs out in July. The plan is to bring in a hotdesk program. I will probably move to 1 day in the office in 2022.

I know 2 guys elsewhere that are doing their WFH in Spain and Portugal respectively. They gave up their leases and are renting cheap beside the sea. I don't think their employer knows. My employer wouldn't have a clue if I was away.

It's trivial to pull logs from a VPN which identify the source log in country you're coming from.

In fact i know this happens, our place offers managed networking as a service and over the last 6 months many requests have came in from clients wanting to know where users are and specifically "users outside of Ireland" i presume this is for tax purposes like other posters mentioned.

JimmyVik

Cyrus wrote: »

not so sure on that either while it certainly holds more appeal at this stage you may already have kids in school and career aspirations that wont be met by moving away,

we looked at it and decided to stay put

Or did one member of the family put the foot down


Seriously though, even the kids when they hit the teenage years will not want to move away to the country. And it probably wouldnt be good to uproot them at that age either.

JimmyVik

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

It's trivial to pull logs from a VPN which identify the source log in country you're coming from.

In fact i know this happens, our place offers managed networking as a service and over the last 6 months many requests have came in from clients wanting to know where users are and specifically "users outside of Ireland" i presume this is for tax purposes like other posters mentioned.

We have someone else working from the UK since Covid started, but he didnt tell management. They are happy enough as long as they dont know he is living abroad.
Its the ones who actually told them they were living abroad that have the problem. I think its to do with revenue, more so than the company.

djan

DataDude wrote: »

Also saw this yesterday and couldn't work it out at all! Seems too good to be true. Comments on other thread re. planning for apartments would make sense.

On the topic of too good to be true - this was on the market for a long time a 950 (seems to have gone sale agreed in last couple of days). I have no desire to live in an apartment or in Saggart...but wow!
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/504-swiftwood-saggart-co-dublin-d24-nn63/4446109

That is stunning, would be some place to work from home in!

Villa05

JimmyVik wrote:

What, he is never wrong Sometimes I think he must be a politician in real life. The way politicians get caught out on a lie and just continues on like nothing happened.

It must inspire great confidence that those same people have so much control over the property market

Onwards an upwards heh!

awec

Cyrus wrote: »

anyway back to property

i wonder what the story with this place is, there is almost certainly a story

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/huntington-outfarm-castleknock-dublin-15-castleknock-dublin-15/4480969

the boards posse have already been on the case

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2058038040

Real stink of tiger McMansion off that thing.

fliball123

awec wrote: »

Real stink of tiger McMansion off that thing.

would rather a McMansion as apposed to a McShoebox... If you were offered it for free would you not live there?

awec

fliball123 wrote: »

would rather a McMansion as apposed to a McShoebox... If you were offered it for free would you not live there?

For free? Yes.

If I had the guts of a million euro to spend on a house I would definitely not buy that thing though.

Cyrus

awec wrote: »

Real stink of tiger McMansion off that thing.

its been left for quite some time, lot of damp.

Hubertj

Cyrus wrote: »

anyway back to property

i wonder what the story with this place is, there is almost certainly a story

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/huntington-outfarm-castleknock-dublin-15-castleknock-dublin-15/4480969

the boards posse have already been on the case

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2058038040

A pool probably devalues it more. I presume they are expensive to run so a new owner has to factor that into the open costs of the house or deal with getting rid of it?

Xoo2

I think that house in Carpenterstown has been for sale (on and off) since 2012 if I remember correctly. The area is really nice (we are actually looking to purchase nearby) good schools, parks, train, bus, phoenix park, etc. It probably needs about 300k of work though to bring to standard which is factored into the price.

JimmyVik

awec wrote: »

For free? Yes.

If I had the guts of a million euro to spend on a house I would definitely not buy that thing though.

I'll have it if you dont want it

Reins

https://bpfi.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/BPFI-Mortgage-Drawdowns-Q4-2020-for-web.pdf

Mortgage Drawdowns Q4 2020

Villa05

Xoo2 wrote:

I think that house in Carpenterstown has been for sale (on and off) since 2012 if I remember correctly.......... .
It probably needs about 300k of work though to bring to standard which is factored into the price.

7 years average salary....

TobyHolmes

Xoo2 wrote: »

I think that house in Carpenterstown has been for sale (on and off) since 2012 if I remember correctly. The area is really nice (we are actually looking to purchase nearby) good schools, parks, train, bus, phoenix park, etc. It probably needs about 300k of work though to bring to standard which is factored into the price.

maybe it haunted?

PropQueries

According to the Irish Times today:

"AIB sells 620 distressed mortgages to ‘ethical’ investment group... The bank’s Project Iris portfolio, which contains 620 owner-occupier mortgages in long-term arrears, has been sold to the Home Solution Initiative group, which has pledged to find borrower-friendly solutions to the outstanding arrears problem."

Most are expected to end up in the Government’s mortgage to rent scheme.

"The Home Solutions Initiative consortium comprises debt collection agency Everyday Finance, London-based investment group LCM Partners and the Irish-based Home for Life group."

David Hall of iCare stated a few weeks ago: "Because Home for Life can potentially sell the properties for a profit after leasing the home to the local council for a 25-year period, it can pay higher prices than the approved housing bodies at the outset, he claimed."

Link to Irish Times article today here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/aib-sells-620-distressed-mortgages-to-ethical-investment-group-1.4471100

Link to article on David Hall' view in Irish Times three weeks ago: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/mortgage-to-rent-scheme-undermined-by-commercial-entity-claims-david-hall-1.4455789

HansKroenke

In long-term arrears? So they are living for free when there are people who would step in and pay the mortgage. Turf them out.

Cyrus

Villa05 wrote: »

7 years average salary....

hardly relevant, someone on the average salary wont be buying it.