2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

ELM327

Cyrus wrote: »

if people on the MEDIAN FT salary cant buy a 4 bed in ballsbridge as single person property is too expensive.

Am i doing it right?

I mistook this for a genuine woe is me post for a second. Well played.

jill_valentine

Cyrus wrote: »

i am agreeing with you, basically if you were to listen to some posters everyone should be able to afford everything, and if they cant property is over priced.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest that even by accident. Conversation here orbits first time buyer/entry level properties, we wouldn't spend so much time talking about luxury apartments vs standard ones or AirBnBs were that not the case.

Cyrus

jill_valentine wrote: »

I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest that even by accident. Conversation here orbits first time buyer/entry level properties, we wouldn't spend so much time talking about luxury apartments vs standard ones or AirBnBs were that not the case.

im half joking, no one has a sense of humour here either,

the best parts of this thread are where people discuss actual properties or areas to live, unfortunately it only makes up 5-10%.

hometruths

Marius34 wrote: »

What that would give, why it's more that people think? Looking at this thread, people think there are higher vacancy than any reports/data suggest.
There were no high vacancy in those properties, outside Covid times. Obviously it may be fairly high now, but it will mostly solve on it's own when all the lockdowns ends.

I believe the CSO vacancy figures to be correct.

It is more accurate to say that looking at this thread, some posters believe there are less vacancies than official reports suggest.

Marius34

schmittel wrote: »

I believe the CSO vacancy figures to be correct.

It is more accurate to say that looking at this thread, some posters believe there are less vacancies that official reports suggest.

We went over and over what Census vacancy means.
Since poster spoke about tax, I believe poster has in mind typical longer term vacancy of 6 months and more.
You can not tax someone keeping their property vacant for the weekend, and for many other reasons what it may appear as vacant in Census reports.

hometruths

Marius34 wrote: »

We went over and over what Census vacancy means.
Since poster spoke about tax, I believe poster has in mind typical longer term vacancy of 6 months and more.
You can not tax someone keeping their property vacant for the weekend, and for many other reasons what it may appear as vacant in Census reports.

Indeed, and you believe that what CSO classes as vacant is not really vacant, it just "may appear as vacant" as you stated above.

Which is exactly why I said "It is more accurate to say that looking at this thread, some posters believe there are less vacancies that official reports suggest."

Marius34

schmittel wrote: »

Indeed, and you believe that what CSO classes as vacant is not really vacant, it just "may appear as vacant" as you stated above.

Which is exactly why I said "It is more accurate to say that looking at this thread, some posters believe there are less vacancies that official reports suggest."

You don't get my point.
I do agree that if I go for weekend to visit my family, that my home can be considered as Vacant. But it does not serve the purpose for discussion on vacancy for tax reasons. For many when we discuss vacancy, we have in mind that is not in use for longer period in time. It's common to use a 6 month vacancy (or long term vacancy).

Zenify

Seeing a few more properties coming on the market compared to the last few months. Still not as much as this time last year though.

A lot of them look like they were rentals.

hometruths

Marius34 wrote: »

You don't get my point.
I do agree that if I go for weekend to visit my family, that my home can be considered as Vacant. But it does not serve the purpose for discussion on vacancy for tax reasons. For many when we discuss vacancy, we have in mind that is not in use for longer period in time. It's common to use a 6 month vacancy (or long term vacancy).

i do get your point. You dont think the census vacancy figures are a true reflection of vacancies because you think a lot of them are temporary vacancies.

Which is why i said some posters think there are less vacancies than official reports.

Marius34

schmittel wrote: »

i do get your point. You dont think the census vacancy figures are a true reflection of vacancies because you think a lot of them are temporary vacancies.

Which is why i said some posters think there are less vacancies than official reports.

I thought it's clear that when I responded to poster about property tax on vacancy, I meant not temporal vacancy.
Since you so much into wording I should rephrase for you:
Looking at this thread, it seems some people think there are higher habitable longer term vacancy than any reports/data suggest.

Pelezico

Two houses on my street went up for sale three weeks ago. Both now sale agreed.

There is a lot of money around. There is also a lot of suffering around too with circa 10% of mortgages currently not being serviced.

Villa05

Hubertj wrote:

Dublin City Council faces six-year wait for start of housing construction on its sites via The Irish Times

Hubertj wrote:

Some interesting points but hardly surprising. And some people think the issue is easy to fix. Easier to just blame the gubberment

The one positive thing about this thread is that it shines a light on those that get things right and those that are out of their depth, including many iuseful posts by yourself.

Continually DCC have proven to be an outlier in poor performance in housing provision. I think it would be best if there reports and testimony on housing were treated with a grain of salt
Many of the sorrounding councils seem to be able to deliver housing at a fraction of the cost when given the resources
Like any job you get those with competency and track record in performing the task

fliball123 wrote:

I am still at odds as to why people take Dublin prices and then extrapolate it throughout the rest of the country and then use it as an excuse that Ireland's property is too expensive.

We appear to be entering the phase where the bubble is spreading out from the major cities
But of course housing is affordable that's why every new house is subsidised by the state as well as 50% of the rents

Zenify

Really great interview about how markets can turn.

Mostly related to the US stock market.

'If history is to repeat itself we will see a crash this year, however history may not repeat itself'

'What causes markets to bubble is when everyone believes this time is different, we won't crash anymore. This one will keep going.'

'Markets usually don't turn on pessimistic news straight away, it's just a little less optimistic than yesterday. Then a little less than last week and so on.'

It's really a great interview and I recommend watching it.

https://youtu.be/Y_yRgMgBis0

fliball123

Villa05 wrote: »

The one positive thing about this thread is that it shines a light on those that get things right and those that are out of their depth, including many iuseful posts by yourself.

Continually DCC have proven to be an outlier in poor performance in housing provision. I think it would be best if there reports and testimony on housing were treated with a grain of salt
Many of the sorrounding councils seem to be able to deliver housing at a fraction of the cost when given the resources
Like any job you get those with competency and track record in performing the task



We appear to be entering the phase where the bubble is spreading out from the major cities
But of course housing is affordable that's why every new house is subsidised by the state as well as 50% of the rents

Once again can you tell me how we are currently in a bubble. McWilliams in his show back in 2017 stated we were in one in the four years since our prices have gone up a bit, gone down a bit and gone back up a bit. Like I said yesterday this is hardly the properties of a bubble to see very little move in prices in 4 years.

As for affordability I maintain property in IRELAND is affordable for the majority. Dublin is not and maybe some other areas with large population sizes like Cork maybe less affordable then say Rosscommon or Tipperary. Dublin is a capital city with the best infrastructure and attractions when compared to the rest of the country it has the main airport and currently houses about 1/5 of the total population. ergo its a place the majority would like to live in and as such there is a premium to be paid. Just like London, Paris, New York, Sydney, Rome, Brussels, Copenhagen, Madrid, Berlin the list goes on and on. Why should Dublin be any different and we need to get away from using Dublin metrics extrapolating it for the rest of the country and using it as a measure of Ireland's property prices being too high

JimmyVik

Im going away for a year soon.
I would rent my house out while gone, but i might never get it back.
Then if someone decided not to pay the rent i have a whole world of hurt to deal with from far away, which would be hard enough to deal with were i still in Ireland.
Make it easy to get my house back when I want it and someone can rent it. I'll give them a good discount on rent too if they look after it.
But Ive basically been legislated out of letting it.

Mic 1972

My 2 cents here, Dublin while being as expensive as London/Paris/Madrid it offers very little compared to other capital cities.
A city like Dublin wouldn't be very competitive in countries like UK or France for example.

We pay top dollar for average houses in dull estates.

Cyrus

Mic 1972 wrote: »

My 2 cents here, Dublin while being as expensive as London/Paris/Madrid

only its nowhere near as expensive.

and while it may not compare to london its streets ahead of any where else in ireland as a city and its our capital.

fliball123

Mic 1972 wrote: »

My 2 cents here, Dublin while being as expensive as London/Paris/Madrid it offers very little compared to other capital cities.
A city like Dublin wouldn't be very competitive in countries like UK or France for example.

We pay top dollar for average houses in dull estates.

I am sorry have you looked at the prices in London/Paris and Madrid Dublin's house prices are a lot cheaper. If you feel so strongly then leave no one is putting a gun to anyone's head to buy or live here

DataDude

Clueless on fixer-uppers so was hoping I could source some experiences on here. I've looked all over the internet but get wild variations in estimates. Perhaps that's indicative of the fact that it's hard to estimate...but anyway:

Any thoughts on what it might cost to:

A) to retrofit this house (https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/36-albert-road-lower-glenageary-county-dublin/4485382) to B3 BER or better standard with nice modern finish (e.g. This level of internal quality fixtures/fittings https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/58-gledswood-park-clonskeagh-dublin-14/4484356)

Cost to extend by c.75m2 (if possible & subject to P.P.)

Would €150k - €200k for A and €200k - €250k for B sound about right or am I way off?

On a related point, when bidding on a fixer upper is it just up to you to have a fair idea of what it would cost to do up and just hope you don't get a surprise after the fact?
Or would it be possible to get a fairly reliable estimate before completing the sale? Assume you can't send out a tender on something you don't own but can you do something similar that you could place a strong reliance on?

Have heard horror stories from friends of costs escalating by huge amounts and am very keen to avoid if we do go down the fixer upper road.

hi!

fliball123 wrote: »

Once again can you tell me how we are currently in a bubble. McWilliams in his show back in 2017 stated we were in one in the four years since our prices have gone up a bit, gone down a bit and gone back up a bit. Like I said yesterday this is hardly the properties of a bubble to see very little move in prices in 4 years.

As for affordability I maintain property in IRELAND is affordable for the majority. Dublin is not and maybe some other areas with large population sizes like Cork maybe less affordable then say Rosscommon or Tipperary. Dublin is a capital city with the best infrastructure and attractions when compared to the rest of the country it has the main airport and currently houses about 1/5 of the total population. ergo its a place the majority would like to live in and as such there is a premium to be paid. Just like London, Paris, New York, Sydney, Rome, Brussels, Copenhagen, Madrid, Berlin the list goes on and on. Why should Dublin be any different and we need to get away from using Dublin metrics extrapolating it for the rest of the country and using it as a measure of Ireland's property prices being too high

Why should people that have to work in Dublin not be able to afford a home near it?

All the main big teaching hospitals are in Dublin....they need to be staffed.

fliball123

hi! wrote: »

Why should people that have to work in Dublin not be able to afford a home near it?

All the main big teaching hospitals are in Dublin....they need to be staffed.

So now no one living in Dublin works in Dublin or in the surrounding counties??

Have you got any proof that currently Dublin has no one living in it that works there?? I know I am being a bit silly with that line of questioning but you get the point.

People make the decision to work in Dublin that decision is on them and their employers to sort something out. Hospitals should be incentivising staff and schools its students by having access to property and giving it out at lower rents. I know a lot of nursing homes have this for their staff the rent they pay is at a much lower rate than the norm in the area. Also there will be a lot more working from home as well which should ease the problem your talking about.

JimmyVik

hi! wrote: »

Why should people that have to work in Dublin not be able to afford a home near it?

All the main big teaching hospitals are in Dublin....they need to be staffed.

Its the people who dont work, who are living in Dublin that are causing more of an issue

MacronvFrugals

JimmyVik wrote: »

Its the people who dont work, who are living in Dublin that are causing more of an issue

Get a cheap sign and some cupcakes made and challenge Leo for the FG leadership!

Hubertj

Villa05 wrote: »

The one positive thing about this thread is that it shines a light on those that get things right and those that are out of their depth, including many iuseful posts by yourself.

Continually DCC have proven to be an outlier in poor performance in housing provision. I think it would be best if there reports and testimony on housing were treated with a grain of salt
Many of the sorrounding councils seem to be able to deliver housing at a fraction of the cost when given the resources
Like any job you get those with competency and track record in performing the task



We appear to be entering the phase where the bubble is spreading out from the major cities
But of course housing is affordable that's why every new house is subsidised by the state as well as 50% of the rents

I’m glad you appreciate how insightful my contributions are.

Mic 1972

fliball123 wrote: »

I am sorry have you looked at the prices in London/Paris and Madrid Dublin's house prices are a lot cheaper. If you feel so strongly then leave no one is putting a gun to anyone's head to buy or live here

no need to become aggressive

JimmyVik

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Get a cheap sign and some cupcakes made and challenge Leo for the FG leadership!

And €5m marketing consultant

fliball123

Mic 1972 wrote: »

no need to become aggressive

Just letting the poster know they have the freedom to go else where if they do not appreciate all that Dublin offers.

Balluba

Cyrus wrote: »

only its nowhere near as expensive.

and while it may not compare to london its streets ahead of any where else in ireland as a city and its our capital.

Don’t agree!! I moved to Dublin from the midlands because there was no university in the Midlands. I have stayed in Dublin for work and then I had a family here. The Midlands though will always be streets ahead of Dublin for me.

hi!

fliball123 wrote: »

So now no one living in Dublin works in Dublin or in the surrounding counties??

Have you got any proof that currently Dublin has no one living in it that works there?? I know I am being a bit silly with that line of questioning but you get the point.

People make the decision to work in Dublin that decision is on them and their employers to sort something out. Hospitals should be incentivising staff and schools its students by having access to property and giving it out at lower rents. I know a lot of nursing homes have this for their staff the rent they pay is at a much lower rate than the norm in the area. Also there will be a lot more working from home as well which should ease the problem your talking about.

I never said that? I work in Dublin and trying to buy in North Kildare but still struggling to afford anything.
There’s no incentive to work in Dublin. I could easily move to a smaller country hospital & am contemplating it. But like I said the big teaching hospitals are in Dublin also meaning the sickest people are too. I know antidotally a lot of staff rent as they can’t afford to buy. And plan to leave.

MacronvFrugals

JimmyVik wrote: »

And €5m marketing consultant

The base loves being tickled, any chancer saying the right populist things could win the leadership

MacronvFrugals

Yurt! wrote: »

I'd like to see the sauce for that one.


https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-gpii/geographicalprofilesofincomeinireland2016/housing/


CSO statbank for this appears to published by household not individual and has the median gross nationally by household in private rental @ 41,695 median.

So if you'd have a stat suggesting that the median salaried worker in private tenure in Dublin is 52k I'd like to see it, because I think that's an extraordinary figure

Would love to get a source on that 52k figure also if possible!

hometruths

DataDude wrote: »

Clueless on fixer-uppers so was hoping I could source some experiences on here. I've looked all over the internet but get wild variations in estimates. Perhaps that's indicative of the fact that it's hard to estimate...but anyway:

Any thoughts on what it might cost to:

A) to retrofit this house (https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/36-albert-road-lower-glenageary-county-dublin/4485382) to B3 BER or better standard with nice modern finish (e.g. This level of internal quality fixtures/fittings https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/58-gledswood-park-clonskeagh-dublin-14/4484356)

Cost to extend by c.75m2 (if possible & subject to P.P.)

Would €150k - €200k for A and €200k - €250k for B sound about right or am I way off?

On a related point, when bidding on a fixer upper is it just up to you to have a fair idea of what it would cost to do up and just hope you don't get a surprise after the fact?
Or would it be possible to get a fairly reliable estimate before completing the sale? Assume you can't send out a tender on something you don't own but can you do something similar that you could place a strong reliance on?

Have heard horror stories from friends of costs escalating by huge amounts and am very keen to avoid if we do go down the fixer upper road.

That one in glenageary is a smashing house. I’d think if you put 200k in that you’d end up with something awesome.

Yurt2

I don't think we need any links to demonstrate that London or Paris are unaffordable. London's housing situation is particularly calamitous and it's well documented.

The difference wih both cities and Dublin is that they are global centers of finance, media, education and culture with (genuine and not brass-plate or ops) headquarters of Fortune 500 companies coming out the wazoo.

Dublin is a fairly small to medium-sized capital in a peripheral country with plenty of land to get things right if policymakers weren't in thrall to interest groups (I include people plugging their ears and closing their eyes to the unaffordability problem as they stand to gain to housing inflation). The fact we're mentioned in the same breath as London or Paris on this metric is not good news.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-02-17/europe-s-superstar-cities-are-choking-local-home-buyers

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

only its nowhere near as expensive.

and while it may not compare to london its streets ahead of any where else in ireland as a city and its our capital.

Are you from Dublin? Have you lived anywhere else?

Cyrus

Balluba wrote: »

Don’t agree!! I moved to Dublin from the midlands because there was no university in the Midlands. I have stayed in Dublin for work and then I had a family here. The Midlands though will always be streets ahead of Dublin for me.

what city in the midlands are you comparing it to? as i did say nowhere else as a city compares.

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

Are you from Dublin? Have you lived anywhere else?

No i am not and yes i have.

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

No i am not and yes i have.

Lived elsewhere in Ireland or in another city outside Ireland?

Yurt2

JimmyVik wrote: »

Its the people who dont work, who are living in Dublin that are causing more of an issue

Dublin has always had a lower unemployment rate than elsewhere.

This may be unpalatable, but what stubborn long-term unemployment does exist in the capital, if you grabbed them by the ear and made them work in Centra or Subway full-time and pushed them into the private rental market - guess what, they probably wouldn't be able to make rent and would have to double-back to the welfare office and apply for HAP anyway.

Don't take this post as a defence of able-bodied ar*e-scratchers. It's just an illustration of the contradiction that you think that what little long-term unemployment there is, is the cause of the housing farce.

Cyrus

DataDude wrote: »

Clueless on fixer-uppers so was hoping I could source some experiences on here. I've looked all over the internet but get wild variations in estimates. Perhaps that's indicative of the fact that it's hard to estimate...but anyway:

Any thoughts on what it might cost to:

A) to retrofit this house (https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/36-albert-road-lower-glenageary-county-dublin/4485382) to B3 BER or better standard with nice modern finish (e.g. This level of internal quality fixtures/fittings https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/58-gledswood-park-clonskeagh-dublin-14/4484356)

Cost to extend by c.75m2 (if possible & subject to P.P.)

Would €150k - €200k for A and €200k - €250k for B sound about right or am I way off?

On a related point, when bidding on a fixer upper is it just up to you to have a fair idea of what it would cost to do up and just hope you don't get a surprise after the fact?
Or would it be possible to get a fairly reliable estimate before completing the sale? Assume you can't send out a tender on something you don't own but can you do something similar that you could place a strong reliance on?

Have heard horror stories from friends of costs escalating by huge amounts and am very keen to avoid if we do go down the fixer upper road.

Glenageary house is nice, it backs onto that little industrial estate on albert road which may or may not bother you. also albert road is pretty busy not sure if that would bother you or not?

It is a great location though, proximite to the dart and to glasthule.

as to costs of renovating, i think 450k all in would get you the extra 75 sq/m and a decent level of finish overall on the whole property and you would have a fine house then, but youd need all of it, prices of renovations are scarey at the moment.

Ask some people getting it done if you can, to get an idea, you will also pay more because of where the house is, its not right but it does happen.

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

Lived elsewhere in Ireland or in another city outside Ireland?

well given i am not from Dublin i have lived elsewhere in ireland, and i have also lived in a major asian city for a period as well as London. I travel back to both 4-5 times a year.

Which is besides the point as what i said was Dublin is streets ahead of any of the other cities in ireland.

Cyrus

DataDude wrote: »

Clueless on fixer-uppers so was hoping I could source some experiences on here. I've looked all over the internet but get wild variations in estimates. Perhaps that's indicative of the fact that it's hard to estimate...but anyway:

Any thoughts on what it might cost to:

A) to retrofit this house (https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/36-albert-road-lower-glenageary-county-dublin/4485382) to B3 BER or better standard with nice modern finish (e.g. This level of internal quality fixtures/fittings https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/58-gledswood-park-clonskeagh-dublin-14/4484356)

Cost to extend by c.75m2 (if possible & subject to P.P.)

Would €150k - €200k for A and €200k - €250k for B sound about right or am I way off?

On a related point, when bidding on a fixer upper is it just up to you to have a fair idea of what it would cost to do up and just hope you don't get a surprise after the fact?
Or would it be possible to get a fairly reliable estimate before completing the sale? Assume you can't send out a tender on something you don't own but can you do something similar that you could place a strong reliance on?

Have heard horror stories from friends of costs escalating by huge amounts and am very keen to avoid if we do go down the fixer upper road.

for the same all in cost here are a few other options:

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/9-ard-na-greine-eaton-brae-off-orwell-road-rathgar-dublin-6/4346079

looks like its single storey so it will feel bigger than the nominal size.

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/52-ulverton-road-dalkey-co-dublin-a96-x243/4440891

this would need work but you would have a fine place at the end of it.

new build option in glenageary more for reference, i think these are 4 storey and gardens appear non existent unfortunately

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/st-paul-s-square-adelaide-road-glenageary-dublin/4407651

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

well given i am not from Dublin i have lived elsewhere in ireland, and i have also lived in a major asian city for a period as well as London. I travel back to both 4-5 times a year.

From experience I find that most of those people who say "London and Dublin are both capital cities, so they're comparable etc" have never actually lived in London. I just assumed this was the case with you.

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

From experience I find that most of those people who say "London and Dublin are both capital cities, so they're comparable etc" have never actually lived in London. I just assumed this was the case with you.

I didn’t compare London to Dublin though. So you were pretty far off the mark.

There is also a massive premium to pay to live in London over Dublin .

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

I didn’t compare London to Dublin though. So you were pretty far off the mark.

There is also a massive premium to pay to live in London over Dublin .

Fair enough, I suppose that was my more polite way of saying my memory of most deluded people on Dublin's value being the capital in the last property bull market had never lived in London.

Villa05

fliball123 wrote:

As for affordability I maintain property in IRELAND is affordable for the majority. Dublin is not and maybe some other areas with large population sizes like Cork maybe less affordable then say Rosscommon or Tipperary. Dublin is a capital city with the best infrastructure and attractions when compared to the rest of the country it has the main airport and currently houses about 1/5 of the total population. ergo its a place the majority would like to live in and as such there is a premium to be paid. Just like London, Paris, New York, Sydney, Rome, Brussels, Copenhagen, Madrid, Berlin the list goes on and on. Why should Dublin be any different and we need to get away from using Dublin metrics extrapolating it for the rest of the country and using it as a measure of Ireland's property prices being too high

If it is affordable for the majority why are 50% of rents and up to 100% of new builds subsidised by the taxpayer
Is it that they are too cheap and the state needs to make up the difference?

Dublin, Cork and Galway are too expensive and it appears that this is now leading to significant increases outside the main cities Does this trend sound familiar to you from our previous bubble?

Do continued government interventions that drive up price sound familiar
Does access to cheap finance sond familiar
Do low interest rates in what was a booming economy sound familiar

All contributers to the previous bubble and subsequent crash

hometruths

Villa05 wrote: »

If it is affordable for the majority why are 50% of rents and up to 100% of new builds subsidised by the taxpayer
Is it that they are too cheap and the state needs to make up the difference?

Dublin, Cork and Galway are too expensive and it appears that this is now leading to significant increases outside the main cities Does this trend sound familiar to you from our previous bubble?

Do continued government interventions that drive up price sound familiar
Does access to cheap finance sond familiar
Do low interest rates in what was a booming economy sound familiar

All contributers to the previous bubble and subsequent crash

Does fear of missing out sound familiar?!

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

Fair enough, I suppose that was my more polite way of saying my memory of most deluded people on Dublin's value being the capital in the last property bull market had never lived in London.

Again that’s fine but off the mark as it relates to me and what I said.

hometruths

Cyrus wrote: »

Again that’s fine but off the mark as it relates to me and what I said.

I have already said it was an assumption, so what's the problem?

Yurt2

schmittel wrote: »

Does fear of missing out sound familiar?!

It does, and that's the mass-psychology of the Irish housing market. All of this woudln't be so bad if one's life chances in Ireland weren't tied so intimately to owning a property. Growing old in the private rental sector here isn't a pretty picture. No security of tenure, getting chucked out on your ear as landlords sell-up whenever the property market is in flux, the encouragement of inappropriate housing stock, rental hikes above inflation - the list goes on.

Alternatives such as social housing, cost-rental, co-op housing or affordable housing generally frequently get decried as some sort of communistic conspiracy.

The same folks object to SF (as is your right) and "populism". Well, guess what, if you dislike SF and whatever you take to be populism, you should be hounding whatever public representatives you do support to get serious about housing quick, because the situation is creating a social pressure cooker, and they wont be able to keep a lid on it forever, and you'll get your populism anyway in doses you didn't bargain for.

Cyrus

schmittel wrote: »

I have already said it was an assumption, so what's the problem?

You keep clarifying yourself despite the fact it was completely off the mark, that’s the problem.

Say you were wrong and move on maybe ?