Penny Farthings, Legality and responsibility.

Effects

Gerry T wrote: »

How do you get to a point where you think car drivers don't care. Does that include your family, friends or is it just "them".

Because they drive like they don't care. And yeah, it still applies to family and friends.

Seth Brundle

Gerry T wrote: »

Your all mad on here !
It's a reasonable suggestion, safety. In 20 yrs they'll look back and think we were crazy for not thinking of it before.

How do you get to a point where you think car drivers don't care. Does that include your family, friends or is it just "them"

There were similar attitudes on construction sites, the lift in H&S not only offered a safer work environment it greatly changed peoples attitudes and approach to the workplace. It didn't save thousands of lives and it does cost a fortune, is it worth it, most definitely.

I agree with some points, car drivers should have to do regular 'top up' training, it's crazy to think people can just get in and go without even a 5yr refresher.
It's the change in people attitudes that will make the biggest impact.

For all the cost and effort required, can you provide us with one example that would justify rolling out this proposal?
Given the budget required, would this money not be better spent on an advertising campaign to undo the vast ignorance when it comes to cyclists created by decades of inaccurate reporting and also on some proper garda enforcement? Would that not provide greater safety for cyclists?
Honesty, your proposal is astronomically daft because, in the name of cyclist safety, you're suggesting to fix something that isn't broken whilst deliberately ignoring the elephant in the room.

...and yeah - we're all mad on here!

cletus

Gerry T wrote: »

Your all mad on here !
It's a reasonable suggestion, safety. In 20 yrs they'll look back and think we were crazy for not thinking of it before.

How do you get to a point where you think car drivers don't care. Does that include your family, friends or is it just "them"

There were similar attitudes on construction sites, the lift in H&S not only offered a safer work environment it greatly changed peoples attitudes and approach to the workplace. It didn't save thousands of lives and it does cost a fortune, is it worth it, most definitely.

I agree with some points, car drivers should have to do regular 'top up' training, it's crazy to think people can just get in and go without even a 5yr refresher.
It's the change in people attitudes that will make the biggest impact.

Yes, we are. We are a group of adults who get on the internet to talk to each other about bikes, bike parts, bike clothes etc. etc. ad nauseam, ad infinitum.

Really, your idea of bikes being checked regularly and maintained properly is not one that anybody here disagrees with.

The NCT took genuinely dangerous cars off the road, and keeps some small measure of control over the maintenance of the rest of the national fleet on a yearly basis.

There are too many factors, that are too costly to implement, that make your idea unworkable, especially considering poorly maintained bikes do not contribute to annual road death or injury rates in any meaningful way

07Lapierre

Gerry T wrote: »

How do you get to a point where you think car drivers don't care.

Purely anecdotal i know but, IMO this drivers attitude is typical of most drivers who are "delayed" by a mere cyclist.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/sharing-the-road-1.4450864

meeeeh

beauf wrote: »

It doesn't just happen when cycling either. There is a rising tide of aggressive and angry drivers out there. No patience, poor driving skills and want everyone to get out of their way. They don't care what they hit.

You can hardly claim with any credibility that roads are more dangerous than they used to be. I presume you also drive, so would you consider yourself as more aggressive driver or does that apply just to others?

Effects

meeeeh wrote: »

You can hardly claim with any credibility that roads are more dangerous than they used to be.

Drivers seem to break red lights far more than they used to anyway. Probably because they know they can get away with it.

And then there's the rise in car drivers using their phones while driving. Certainly wasn't a problem in the past.

CramCycle

Gerry T wrote: »

Your all mad on here !
It's a reasonable suggestion, safety. In 20 yrs they'll look back and think we were crazy for not thinking of it before.

The thing is, and you seem to be ignoring this. Poorly maintained bikes have no real cost to the health or legal system, or society in general at the minute. So if you were to role this out, within 5 years, you would be ridiculed for wasting time and money for something that has no tangible benefit.

How do you get to a point where you think car drivers don't care. Does that include your family, friends or is it just "them"

It would definitely include family and friends, it doesn't include everyone but it includes a large enough section of society for it to be a concern.

It's the change in people attitudes that will make the biggest impact.

So do you not think that's where you should start? I mean, you are effectively pointing out and arguing against the obvious issue with your idea.

meeeeh

Effects wrote: »

Drivers seem to break red lights far more than they used to anyway. Probably because they know they can get away with it.

And then there's the rise in car drivers using their phones while driving. Certainly wasn't a problem in the past.

You mean when there were no mobile phones? I would say that yes in comparison to 30 years ago that's definitely true.

As for red lights it would be interesting to see the statistics you are referring to.

cletus

Effects wrote: »

Drivers seem to break red lights far more than they used to anyway. Probably because they know they can get away with it.

And then there's the rise in car drivers using their phones while driving. Certainly wasn't a problem in the past.

You have to be careful of recency biases too

magicbastarder

Gerry T wrote: »

Your all mad on here !
It's a reasonable suggestion, safety. In 20 yrs they'll look back and think we were crazy for not thinking of it before.

to a crazy man, everyone else seems crazy.

07Lapierre

meeeeh wrote: »

You can hardly claim with any credibility that roads are more dangerous than they used to be. I presume you also drive, so would you consider yourself as more aggressive driver or does that apply just to others?

Depends on which side of the windscreen you look at it from.
Cars are safer now than they were. Roads (Motorways) are safer than they were. But drivers/driving has become more aggressive and speeds are higher. I think people are surviving impacts/collisions today that were killing people years ago. I would imagine the number of collisions per year are much higher today than they were years ago, as we have many more vehicles on the road. So are roads safer? I suppose they are as long as you are wearing a seatbelt, surrounded by airbags, have ABS, traction control, adaptive cruise control etc. etc.

MojoMaker

meeeeh wrote: »

You mean when there were no mobile phones? I would say that yes in comparison to 30 years ago that's definitely true.

As for red lights it would be interesting to see the statistics you are referring to.

^^ phones without interactive screens at least, so let's bring that even closer, like the last 10 years.

Rarely are people "on the phone" actually using the telephone aspects of the phone, just randomly flicking through crap on the screen and trying to keep one eye on the road in a haphazard fashion, shure what's the worst that can happen......I might hit a cyclist, but if he/she is unlit and not wearing a helmet or hi-viz clothing it must be their fault.

cletus

In 1990, there were 478 road deaths in Ireland. In 2019 there were 148 road deaths. That's a pretty significant drop.

With regards to drivers being more aggressive, I'm not sure if you could get a quantitative analysis of that.

Looking specifically at cycling, there has been an upward trend in injury and death in the last number of years, that may be tied to driver aggression, but could equally be tied to increased bike usage, increased road usage by cars for, say commuting etc. I can't speak to which factors, if any, have affected this, as the data that I found doesn't speak to any of them.

The article in the IT outlines some of those statistics.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-had-highest-rise-in-cycling-deaths-in-eu-in-nine-year-period-report-1.4159467%3fmode=amp

This is obviously only a very very superficial look at the figures, but they don't seem, in my mind to offer unequivocal evidence of increased driver aggression

magicbastarder

there's been a very noticeable shift in culture as regards drink driving in the last two or three decades, and beyond a shadow of a doubt, cars have gotten much safer - to the point where it's more dangerous to drive an old car now than it was when the car was new (because a new car will make **** of it in a collision - two old cars colliding is like two pillows colliding, but an old car and a new car colliding is like a pillow colliding with a half defrosted turkey)

beauf

meeeeh wrote: »

You can hardly claim with any credibility that roads are more dangerous than they used to be. I presume you also drive, so would you consider yourself as more aggressive driver or does that apply just to others?

I didn't say roads were more dangerous. I said drivers were more aggressive.

Am I a more aggressive driver. No statistically I'm the same.

You'd have to look at stats to find out about general trends.

07Lapierre

magicbastarder wrote: »

there's been a very noticeable shift in culture as regards drink driving in the last two or three decades, and beyond a shadow of a doubt, cars have gotten much safer - to the point where it's more dangerous to drive an old car now than it was when the car was new (because a new car will make **** of it in a collision - two old cars colliding is like two pillows colliding, but an old car and a new car colliding is like a pillow colliding with a half defrosted turkey)

Fifth Gear did a crash test of an old car v Modern car and the result is not surprising..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6NUin9MwXo

beauf

cletus wrote: »

In 1990, there were 478 road deaths in Ireland. In 2019 there were 148 road deaths. That's a pretty significant drop.

With regards to drivers being more aggressive, I'm not sure if you could get a quantitative analysis of that.

Looking specifically at cycling, there has been an upward trend in injury and death in the last number of years, that may be tied to driver aggression, but could equally be tied to increased bike usage, increased road usage by cars for, say commuting etc. I can't speak to which factors, if any, have affected this, as the data that I found doesn't speak to any of them.

The article in the IT outlines some of those statistics.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-had-highest-rise-in-cycling-deaths-in-eu-in-nine-year-period-report-1.4159467%3fmode=amp

This is obviously only a very very superficial look at the figures, but they don't seem, in my mind to offer unequivocal evidence of increased driver aggression

Even if don't capture the numbers, you can look to general trends elsewhere...

Road rage fatalities increased 500 percent over 10 years and they’re still on the rise, study says

https://www.fox5dc.com/news/road-rage-fatalities-increased-500-percent-over-10-years-and-theyre-still-on-the-rise-study-says

magicbastarder

07Lapierre wrote: »

Fifth Gear did a crash test of an old car v Modern car and the result is not surprising..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6NUin9MwXo

that's the very video i had in mind!
worth embedding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6NUin9MwXo

Effects

meeeeh wrote: »

You mean when there were no mobile phones? I would say that yes in comparison to 30 years ago that's definitely true.

As for red lights it would be interesting to see the statistics you are referring to.

I didn't mention statistics, I used the phrase 'seem to'.

cletus

The numbers of cycling fatalities for Ireland (and other EU countries) are listed below. I was looking for a per capita breakdown, but couldn't find it (I'm doing this while making dinner for the family)

2015 and 2016 are not listed. The deaths were 9 and 10 respective. 2019 deaths were 8. I'll come back in a minute with 2018.

With respect to the study on road rage above, that was carried out in America. I'm sure I could use the data below to suggest that Ireland is safer to cycle in than {insert country here}

cletus

With such small numbers, an increase or decrease of one or two is going to massively sway percentage outcomes

magicbastarder

it'd be more instructive if they recorded cycling fatalities per million km travelled, or similar.
you'd probably find that the distance cycled per capita in NL is several dozen times higher than in many other countries.

cletus

magicbastarder wrote: »

it'd be more instructive if they recorded cycling fatalities per million km travelled, or similar.
you'd probably find that the distance cycled per capita in NL is several dozen times higher than in many other countries.

100%. I think I have such a document, but I haven't had a chance to peruse it yet.

I'm aware of the saying "lies, damned lies and statistics", and I'm not trying to denigrate either the personal experiences of the posters here, or the road fatalities that make up these statistics, but I try to avoid speaking anecdotally about things like this.

It's too easy to say "back in the day things were better" or "over in <wherever> they do it better/worse"

breezy1985

07Lapierre wrote: »

Depends on which side of the windscreen you look at it from.
Cars are safer now than they were. Roads (Motorways) are safer than they were. But drivers/driving has become more aggressive and speeds are higher. I think people are surviving impacts/collisions today that were killing people years ago. I would imagine the number of collisions per year are much higher today than they were years ago, as we have many more vehicles on the road. So are roads safer? I suppose they are as long as you are wearing a seatbelt, surrounded by airbags, have ABS, traction control, adaptive cruise control etc. etc.

Even country roads are other better now where as some of the ones before it was impossible to go the speed limit or even get up the speed to drive dangerously. Roads are safer now I would say for the average law abiding car driver.

But patience I would say has slipped down now that car drivers are used to getting everywhere quick and efficiently. I have seen an awful lot of overtakes up blind hills and round blind corners when cars meet slower vehicles and not to get all Misty eyed but I can't imagine a driver now getting stuck in the middle of a herd of sheep or cattle walking up the road like you used to get

cletus

magicbastarder wrote: »

it'd be more instructive if they recorded cycling fatalities per million km travelled, or similar.
you'd probably find that the distance cycled per capita in NL is several dozen times higher than in many other countries.

So, the tables below show, among other things, the fatalities per distance cycled, plus a reliability rating for that data from each country. It is a few years old, but I'd imagine something like this is not collated every year

tomasrojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

it'd be more instructive if they recorded cycling fatalities per million km travelled, or similar.
you'd probably find that the distance cycled per capita in NL is several dozen times higher than in many other countries.

Off the top of my head, the fatality count per billion km cycled is about ten for the Netherlands. It's about 28 for the UK. Low 20s for Ireland. As I said, off the top of my head, and probably old data too, bu the the score of 10 is close to the lowest in Europe, possibly the actual lowest.

EDIT: didn't see the table posted just above. My recollection wasn't too far off.

Large bottle small glass

07Lapierre wrote: »

Depends on which side of the windscreen you look at it from.
Cars are safer now than they were. Roads (Motorways) are safer than they were. But drivers/driving has become more aggressive and speeds are higher. I think people are surviving impacts/collisions today that were killing people years ago. I would imagine the number of collisions per year are much higher today than they were years ago, as we have many more vehicles on the road. So are roads safer? I suppose they are as long as you are wearing a seatbelt, surrounded by airbags, have ABS, traction control, adaptive cruise control etc. etc.

Have you any data to back that up in terms of roads being less safe for cyclists?

46 cyclists died 30 years ago, they have trended down very significantly since, with quite a few years under 10.

Your contention that they are more dangerous now would only be the case if the number of cyclists have plummeted to.

Cycling on busy rural roads and many urban areas maybe be subjectively very unpleasant but that doesn't equate to more dangerous in terms of fatalities.

Advances in car technology hasn't provided much meaningful protection for cyclists to account for such a drop.

Social media, and here on this forum is a prime example, does help in projecting an image of cycling being a dangerous activity.

Perhaps I'm wrong. If so show me the objective data.

magicbastarder

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

Your contention that they are more dangerous now would only be the case if the number of cyclists have plummeted to.

cycling to work more than halved in 30 years anyway - census figures showed 6.8% cycling to work in 1986, dropped to a low of 2% in 2006, back up to 3% in 2016. i suspect it's climbed a bit since.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6mtw/

Large bottle small glass

magicbastarder wrote: »

cycling to work more than halved in 30 years anyway - census figures showed 6.8% cycling to work in 1986, dropped to a low of 2% in 2006, back up to 3% in 2016. i suspect it's climbed a bit since.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6mtw/

Have we not had a cycling boom between 2000ish and 2015 in terms of leisure cycling?

Modal share in Dublin is way up over the last few years I'm pretty sure?

Cycling to work dropping doesn't explain the graph and the contention that the roads are amore dangerous or even as dangerous?

magicbastarder

cycling to school (secondary school, they don't seem to record it for primary) went from 15.3% in 1986 to 2.1% in 2016, a fall of about 85%.
it's been hovering around 2% since 2006.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6stp/

that brings up the most insane stat about cycling, that more female secondary school students drive to school than cycle.
and what makes that even more nuts is that it's pretty much just sixth years, and fifth years at a stretch, who would be able to drive.