Homeowner need to evict difficult licensee - causing distress

sorchanichionn

pc7 wrote: »

I would sit down and say you are giving her a months notice, that it is your home and it is not working out (out of interest did she have references?). Tell her if she wishes to leave before the month that is fine she won't have to pay. Explain its not working for you and obviously not for her.
This is your home, with children, if you do decide to rent that room again, I think you need to ensure they have good references, you get a good vibe off them and they understand this is your home (with children).

I was a fool, I didn't ask for references, only 2nd time renting my room.

Mjolnir

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

'You have a licensee agreement with your landlord. This means that you are in the property by the landlord’s consent or invitation'.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html#


if things do come to a head, you are able to call the police and report for trespassing and request removal.

they are there by your invitation afterall.

Tresspass is a civil matter not a criminal one so no the op can't call the guards and have her removed for trespass.

SouthWesterly

sorchanichionn wrote: »

Hi

I have no intention of kicking her out overnight, I have a heart and I have been extremely patient. In the first weekend of living with me, she disputed because I had a friend over and I had not asked her in advance. I cleared this up at the time, but again a few weeks later it came up.

Thank you very much for you additional advice

Great advice from just a thought. Make the issues she has raised as the reason for your decision. Things aren't going to change in your home and neither should they. As she's so unhappy, she should find somewhere that she will be.
A month is fair. But make it clear that it's not move able.

dubstarr

sorchanichionn wrote: »

Hi

I have no intention of kicking her out overnight, I have a heart and I have been extremely patient. In the first weekend of living with me, she disputed because I had a friend over and I had not asked her in advance. I cleared this up at the time, but again a few weeks later it came up.

Thank you very much for you additional advice

Wow, she's under the impression she has a say about what happens in your home.

You need to have someone there when you tell her to leave.And I have a feeling she won't be going easy.

Heart Break Kid

As mentioned, she has no rights and any there any contact that has ink on it means nothing. Tell her to cop on or leave.

Point her to this and tell her to be off.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html

All the below are fully in your favour.

Your landlord is not obliged to provide you with a rent book or a statement of rent paid
There is no legal requirement for your accommodation to meet minimum physical standards (unless you are a HAP tenant and then these minimum standards must be met)
Any notice you may get of the termination of the tenancy is at your landlord's discretion (although the landlord is obliged to give reasonable notice, the specifics of this notice may vary)
Your landlord is not obliged to register the tenancy with the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB)
You cannot use the RTB's dispute resolution service if a disagreement arises between you and your landlord
You are not protected by the Equal Status Acts 2000-2015, which prohibit discrimination on grounds of gender, civil status, family status, age, race, religion, disability, sexual orientation and membership of the Traveller community – an also on the‘housing assistance’ ground

Haraldkare

sorchanichionn wrote: »

Hi

I have no intention of kicking her out overnight, I have a heart and I have been extremely patient. In the first weekend of living with me, she disputed because I had a friend over and I had not asked her in advance. I cleared this up at the time, but again a few weeks later it came up.

Thank you very much for you additional advice

At first reading it seems like a crazy complaint? But could it have been during a household visit ban? Because then it would be considerate to let her now so she could avoid the visitors.

I would normally say to give the agreed notice of a month. If I were giving her a months notice, I would not be comfortable having my kids in the same house as a vindictive person.

I think you should change the locks. I dont think it means you have any less of a heart in this circumstance.

pc7

sorchanichionn wrote: »

I was a fool, I didn't ask for references, only 2nd time renting my room.

Next time ensure you do and make sure it goes back more than one rental, as some landlords will give a good reference to get rid!

ByTheSea2019

She sounds like she wants to live either in a very quiet house share or on her own. To be honest, it sounds like she didn't think through moving in with a family. She needs to go find an elderly lady who wants a lodger.

She is behaving like she is the homeowner, and you are the licensee.

In my experience, people like this do not change their spots.

Cut your losses and show her the door. Then change the locks.

1874

sorchanichionn wrote: »

Hi

I have no intention of kicking her out overnight, I have a heart and I have been extremely patient. In the first weekend of living with me, she disputed because I had a friend over and I had not asked her in advance. I cleared this up at the time, but again a few weeks later it came up.

Thank you very much for you additional advice

Thats crazy, imo, Im not sure how you cleared this up, but I hope you didnt explain it away or apologise? given whats transpired since, Im thinking you were apologetic or at the least too soft, very much grounds for laying out the rules, Id have given her a warning and a reminder if she is unhappy she can supply a months notice or if she persists you'll give her a months notice, absolutely none of her business, even if you operate a single occupancy rule for licensees (guests) its your home, your rules, Id have laid down the law there and then, tbh being too nice or not setting out the rules can lead to this kind of thing, its possible to be firm but fair and not be unreasonable, this person sounds like they are not suited to owner occupier sharing, the only way this will end well is give her a months notice, you could have covered yourself better by not giving a contract AND by setting out the terms/rules and then sticking by them.

This is the kind of person who will drive away other good lodgers, honestly, just put an end to her now,
Id give her a months notice after she pays you next, if she leaves early, thats on her, and its her own fault, if you want to pay her for unused lodging to make it easier, by all means do so, but do not pay for taxis or hotels.

sorchanichionn wrote: »

I was a fool, I didn't ask for references, only 2nd time renting my room.

References mean nothing, anyone can type up a reference or be asked to give one over the phone, in a situation such as yours, you are the owner and all authority lies with you, If you are not the owner (then you are the head tenant and I recommend you give them a months notice before they gain rights), either way you have children, if she is not happy with a sharing situation and its benefits (shared/reduced costs) AND the downsides that comes with (namely sharing) then she needs to get her own place to rent as from what Ive read, thats all that this person can deal with. If any disoute comes up about it, just say its not working out and this is obvious, if she refuses, get ready to give her 24hrs notie have some back up and refer to your concern about your childrens safety, because I for one would tolerate no bull**** from a person acting the way you have described.

No offence, but there is a middle ground between being too nice and being hard nosed about everything, get rid asap, not your problem, or it shouldnt be.

pc7 wrote: »

Next time ensure you do and make sure it goes back more than one rental, as some landlords will give a good reference to get rid!

References are worth nothing, Id read more into a persons answers to reasonable questions, they may be helpful, but they can be totally fabricated. As a person who has both fully let places and let rooms in my own home, in many cases they are worthless and definitely fabricated.

ByTheSea2019 wrote: »

She sounds like she wants to live either in a very quiet house share or on her own. To be honest, it sounds like she didn't think through moving in with a family. She needs to go find an elderly lady who wants a lodger.

Thats very bad advice, no offence, but such a person sounds like they would be willing, even unknowingly to commit elder abuse.

Interested Observer

sorchanichionn wrote: »

Hi

I have no intention of kicking her out overnight, I have a heart and I have been extremely patient. In the first weekend of living with me, she disputed because I had a friend over and I had not asked her in advance. I cleared this up at the time, but again a few weeks later it came up.

Thank you very much for you additional advice

By "cleared it up" I hope you mean told her in no uncertain terms you'll do what you like. She... does know it's your house right?

I think you need to be absolutely firm tbh, if she doesn't like it then tough.

ByTheSea2019

1874 wrote: »

Thats very bad advice, no offence, but such a person sounds like they would be willing, even unknowingly to commit elder abuse.

I haven't seen anything to indicate she would abuse. She just seems to have a really low tolerance of noise or untidiness.

beachhead

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I am sorry to hear that.

This is your home and you have a right to regulate it as you see fit. You have a duty to take care of your children and your other tenants have a right not to be maltreated.

I would sit down with her, with a witness by your side and ask her for the bathroom key back if it is still missing. If you can, have a few people nearby. Have your children out of the house.

When she gives the key back tell her you can see she isn’t happy and it would be best if she left.

Ask her when is the earliest she can leave. See what she says and when she starts whining about notice periods tell her you want her gone by the weekend.

When she complains say that she and the other lodger are clearly not getting on and that the situation cannot continue.

When she complains about the month’s notice tell her you’ll give her all her rent and deposit back when she leaves. (Have the preposition on hand, in cash).

If she doesn’t give the key back or is obstreperous or argumentative ask her to take her belongings and leave your home immediately. If she doesn’t, ask your friends to remove her belongings. They need to be ready and prepared to do this.

Offer them a lift somewhere with their things or call a taxi and pay for it out of the deposit.

They may say they have nowhere to go. To cover this, make sure you have found hotel or hostel accommodation that you can bring them to. Book a night’s accommodation if they decide to take it up.

Don’t try and do this on your own. You need some help and support. If you are scared of confronting her, get one of your friends or relatives to do it fir you.

Do this all in daylight if you can.

I unfortunately had to do this for an elderly relative two years ago who was being pushed around by her lodger. Not much fun, but you have to confront it.

Extraordinary.I would move out and give her the house.That's a flippant comment by me.Ask her to leave,maybe she has friends who can carry her things/accommodate her

1874

ByTheSea2019 wrote: »

I haven't seen anything to indicate she would abuse. She just seems to have a really low tolerance of noise or untidiness.

I disagree, completely wide open to it, imo very likely, whether intentional or not,

Critical of the home owner, how they live, threatening to take a key (and was it lock a door), tbh I have not seen anything else anywhere that exhibits this closeness to that potential.


This person needs to find their own place, laying down the rules like she has TO THE OWNER, way out of line

Irish_peppa

1874 wrote: »

tbh being too nice or not setting out the rules can lead to this kind of thing,.

As 1874 says bizarely i have allways been maybe too nice to people and 90% of time got screwed mainly over with rent. My latest current lodger I was just proffesional with her and fairly stand offish as i was advised not to become too friendly and "keep it proffesional" with lodgers ,just very neutral convo with her. Dropped guard and got friendly had a few drinks a few nights with her went to pub a few times. She asked me for a loan of a few things... no problem, all good,
Funny thing she has never been on time with rent since we got friendly ! Late rent each and every month as soon as we became Pally. She has been there for 14 months never a minute late with rent Seems the friends status means she doesnt pay on time now:rolleyes: This month rent has been 7 days and counting overdue last month 11 days lol

y0ssar1an22

Mjolnir wrote: »

Tresspass is a civil matter not a criminal one so no the op can't call the guards and have her removed for trespass.

really? i thought if i was trespassing somewhere the cops could remove me?

OP, if you are worried about the reaction of the tenant, you can always give a different reason for ending the tenancy.

use covid as an excuse and you are worried about your kids H and S.

roper1664

OP, give the citizens information a call. They are generally very helpful. They will back up what is said on their website.

The person is a licensee/lodger. You are the homeowner. They give you some money to rent a room in your house.

Sit down with her and be assertive. Tell her that things aren't working, you wish her the best and that you are giving her till the end of January move out.

If you get a bad reaction/attitude from her when you tell her this, then direct her to Citizens information, and tell her that this is an informal agreement and that you, as the home owner, can terminate it at any time.

If it comes to it and you have to send her on her merry way, then you'd have to wait until the next time she leaves the house and put her belongings outside and either have new locks ready so that you can change them or deadlock the door and change the locks at next opportunity.

I've not read all the replies on this thread and only you can decide if she's already crossed the line. Also, a licensee is not allowed to anything under the agreement other than their bedroom, which they are not permitted to lock. Of course you allow them restricted use of "common areas", which are defined by you. Such as a bathroom, kitchen and possibly even a sitting room.

There are some other threads on this topic OP. Essentially they all come down to the owner and the licensee not having a full understanding of the scheme.

roper1664

Just on the eviction ban. That is only for tenancies and it was clarified that it also includes some type of student accommodations that were not classed as tenancies (I don't have all the details on that).
Also, to note Anti Social behaviour (noise etc) are exempt and RTB will remove tenants for this reason under due process (if landlord doesnt sort it).

Specific to this situation though:
A lodger cannot be "evicted", as there is no tenancy to begin with. So the pandemic restrictions have no effect on it. There is no ban on ending your informal agreement with a paying guest.

Get your bathroom key and anything else when has belong to you when you sit down with her. Don't let her fob you off. They are yours.

SteM

1874 wrote: »

B&Q, replace the locks, take it out of her deposit, tell her to fcuk off,
edit by which I mean remove her rubbish off your doorstep, by her rubbish I mean her belongings, cant be dealing with someone if they are telling you how to live in your own home, if they aren't happy, can take a hike, not soon, ASAP, you dont need any rules or excuses, just tell her to go or get friends or the Gardai if need be.

Can you just change the locks and then take the money out of her deposit? Surely you would have to give her a chance to hand back the keys first and can't just use her deposit to change locks?

roper1664

SteM wrote: »

Can you just change the locks and then take the money out of her deposit? Surely you would have to give her a chance to hand back the keys first and can't just use her deposit to change locks?

After having a chat with the lodger and a date to move out, if they were not "compliant", all you could do is remove their property from yours when they step out and change the locks for your own security.

I would probably just be happy to see the back of them at that stage and take the hit on the money and give them back the deposit. But if they caused a scene, I'd be then phoning the gardaí about the person outside my house, and I'd be at the very least keeping the cost of replacement locks and possibly all of the deposit.

Essentially though, if they weren't moving out on the day you had stated, then they'd be interfering with you getting a new person in, therefore, costing you money. And that's one of the reasons you had taken a deposit in the first place. In the case that the lodger had caused you delay in getting a replacement lodger in. Other reasons to keep part or all of deposit would include damage and theft, which would also be criminal acts.

1874

roper1664 wrote: »

OP, give the citizens information a call. They are generally very helpful. They will back up what is said on their website.

The person is a licensee/lodger. You are the homeowner. They give you some money to rent a room in your house.

Sit down with her and be assertive. Tell her that things aren't working, you wish her the best and that you are giving her till the end of January move out.

If you get a bad reaction/attitude from her when you tell her this, then direct her to Citizens information, and tell her that this is an informal agreement and that you, as the home owner, can terminate it at any time.

If it comes to it and you have to send her on her merry way, then you'd have to wait until the next time she leaves the house and put her belongings outside and either have new locks ready so that you can change them or deadlock the door and change the locks at next opportunity.

I've not read all the replies on this thread and only you can decide if she's already crossed the line. Also, a licensee is not allowed to anything under the agreement other than their bedroom, which they are not permitted to lock. Of course you allow them restricted use of "common areas", which are defined by you. Such as a bathroom, kitchen and possibly even a sitting room.

There are some other threads on this topic OP. Essentially they all come down to the owner and the licensee not having a full understanding of the scheme.

As above but,
dont offer any advice re citizens information, there is no obligation.
neither does the Op have to wait until the person decides to leave, If an owner/occupier decided a months notice was acceptable to give and if this was not received well or disputed, then its acceptable to tell them their other options are to go at any time set by the homeowner, 24hrs, 24mins or on the spot and the person has no grounds to dispute this.

SteM

roper1664 wrote: »

After having a chat with the lodger and a date to move out, if they were not "compliant", all you could do is remove their property from yours when they step out and change the locks for your own security.

Yes, that sounds reasonable. I don't think the OP could just change the locks at the expense of the lodger without giving the lodger a chance to hand the keys back as suggested.

Lantus

SteM wrote: »

Yes, that sounds reasonable. I don't think the OP could just change the locks at the expense of the lodger without giving the lodger a chance to hand the keys back as suggested.

Assumes they haven't had a copy made at an earlier point. Lock change is always best for piece of mind.

sorchanichionn

Update


Please be aware I am sympathetic that she has asthma. But this woman sat in the room with the tree with a friend over just a week ago. Her actions make for constant tit for tat, its not like an adult home.



She rang emergency services over removal of the tree, emergency services told her they couldn't do anything, and to call the police to see if they can help. This was a message she sent to me. Now she was apologetic saying she knows I am sick and is just trying to find a solution.


This just escalates!!! My son is isolating with his Dad, and is not due back to me till 14th, but honestly I do not feel I want to bring him back into this environment.

pc7

That is just bonkers, she rang emergency services? Give her notice tell her you want her out before you child returns end of!

Seth Brundle

She's mental!

Repeat this a few times and then say it to her...
"Get Out Now!!!"

Doctor Jimbob

ByTheSea2019 wrote: »

I haven't seen anything to indicate she would abuse. She just seems to have a really low tolerance of noise or untidiness.

I have a very low tolerance for noise. I was a licensee in someone's home for about 6 months a few years ago. They would semi regularly have family members over with kids being or adults getting a bit loud after a few drinks. Nothing too unreasonable, but I often found this very frustrating.

I kept my fecking mouth shut though because at the end of the day I was a guest in their home. I eventually left because I felt the arrangement wasn't for me. This woman is taking the piss.

1874

sorchanichionn wrote: »

Update


Please be aware I am sympathetic that she has asthma. But this woman sat in the room with the tree with a friend over just a week ago. Her actions make for constant tit for tat, its not like an adult home.

She rang emergency services over removal of the tree, emergency services told her they couldn't do anything, and to call the police to see if they can help. This was a message she sent to me. Now she was apologetic saying she knows I am sick and is just trying to find a solution.


This just escalates!!! My son is isolating with his Dad, and is not due back to me till 14th, but honestly I do not feel I want to bring him back into this environment.

What emergency services? and for what reason? imo, Id be ending this sooner rather than later (a months notice is too much), anyone causing this level of disruption should be gone long ago, its after the holidays, saying they are trying to find a solution, maybe they are back pedalling, but by calling the emergency services wasting their time and yours, Id have her out.
The only reason Id tolerate them staying at all (and I mean up until they have paid, assuming thats paid up till the end of the month, so not even a months notice) is an apology and an agreement to not interfere/disrupt you or anyone else. Failing that they will be out the door in as long as it takes them to pack anything essential in one suitcase and collect their other stuff at a later agreed time and date).

imo Id have someone agree to house rules, not a written contract for them to keep, Id always say its not exclusive, in other words if someone comes up with an unexpected or unreasonable way to disrupt others and protests that you never said they couldnt do that specific thing.


Tbh, calling the emergency services over a xmas tree? I think it only got this far by not being firm with them, but there is always a point where it just goes too far, I dont think Id have let it get this far, but if it it had, that would definitely be it.
At this point its just a matter of telling this person they wont be staying there after a set point and its down to them if thats till they have paid up or on the spot because they have long since crossed a line.

berocca2016

I've been in this situation before, licensee seemed lovely in the interview..... then....

She basically moved her boyfriend in, cooked him 3 course meals every day so I couldn't cook, basically took over the entire house!!

Worse was her nocturnal activities, screaming the house down at 2 in the morning (luckily the bf could only last about 5 minutes) to the point where the neighbours complained! (Concrete built semi-detached so very hard to hear the neighbours at all). Gave first warning after this.

Nothing changed so gave 30 days notice to leave. Screamed the house down after me saying she signed a lease, got her Father to ring me threatening to report me to the tax authorities if I didn't let her stay (im an accountant im fully tax compliant, they also didn't understand that as a licensee they were not PRTB registered). The contract we signed is informal and not worth anything in law legally I could kick her out the next day but I was being nice.

So anyways an awkward 30 days passed until she left, full of her singing loudly at all times and her nocturnal activities continuing.

Moral of the story is to set ground rules at the start and check all references including a work reference! And don't be nice when dealing with her now, put the foot down so it isn't an awkward 30 days or whatever time period you seem to give, or just to make sure they don't make your life hell.

Interestingly enough about 2 weeks after she left I woke up to my tyres slashed in the driveway. NEVER AGAIN !

skooterblue2

ByTheSea2019 wrote: »

She sounds like she wants to live either in a very quiet house share or on her own. To be honest, it sounds like she didn't think through moving in with a family. She needs to go find an elderly lady who wants a lodger.

I have some sympathy for her that 30 is too old to be house sharing unless you married or in a relationship. House sharing is great for your 20's. I would say she is deeply unhappy with some other aspect of her life and it is following her home.

She really needs her own accomodation. Living with an elderly person would not be an option either.